Biden/Harris parting gift to the world: A World War

[CaringCdn]

My understanding of the Russia/Ukraine business was that it was promised to Russia that Ukraine would never become part of NATO but Zelensky has asked to join NATO. Isn't this being considered by Europe & the U.S.? 

Is why Russia has acted the way it has?  Maybe someone can enlighten me as to why Russia invaded the Ukraine to begin with.

 

[WestCanMan]

6 hours ago, Radiorum said:

This was not always the case. There was a real period of co-operation between Russa and NATO after the fall of the USSR and before Putin took power. Mid-1990s, Russian military even operated under NATO command in Bosnia and Herzegovina. In 1997, The NATO-Russia Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security was signed by Russia and NATO at the NATO summit in Paris, France. The act was:

Russia and the US even shared intelligence post 9/11.

Then Putin began with his hostile trade actions, threats, and military actions (Azerbaijan, Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine, Syria, Turkey, Kazakhstan), and of course assassinations of Putin’s opponents by Russian intelligence on NATO territory.

Putin is the corrupt imperialist, not NATO.

1. So what you're acknowledging is that international friendships wax and wane, even over the course of just 30 years. And look at the relationships that we have with Germany, Japan, Italy and Russia... The first 3 were our bitter enemies in WWII. They're the poster-children that we still use to this day for "how to be unabashedly evil". Russia was our ally, of sorts. Now our bitter enemies are some of our strongest allies, and Russia is our enemy. Therefor, it would be foolish for Russia to think that NATO will just always be friendly with them for the next 200 years. 
2. You don't actually know what soured our relationship with Russia. You don't. You don't know what we did to them or what they did to us because that's not public and it's the kind of thing that our side and their side will both lie about. Look at the 2nd Iraq war... You don't think that compares to anything Russia did? Gimme a break. If you don't think we're a-holes too sometimes, your sense of smell is broken.   
3. Turkey is a pro-Hamas sh1thole. Pro-HAMAS. Are they really our allies? Are they really the kinds of people whose friendship and support we can rely on? 

• Turkey supports Pakistan's position of holding a plebiscite under the UN to decide if Kashmir wants to join Pakistan, 
• Türkiye's relations with Pakistan have developed on the basis of close friendship and brotherhood since the establishment of Pakistan as an independent state on 14 August 1947

Somehow the massacre of 1M Sikhs and Hindus in Pakistan in 1947 wasn't a problem for the Turks, but the 500 muslims killed in Israel in 1948 still need to be avenged, and a genocide in the millions is a fine place for them to start.

F Turkey. If there's a NATO ally that will eventually be at war with us again, it's Turkey.  

Edited November 24, 2024 by WestCanMan

[Radiorum]

33 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

1. So what you're acknowledging is that international friendships wax and wane, even over the course of just 30 years. And look at the relationships that we have with Germany, Japan, Italy and Russia... The first 3 were our bitter enemies in WWII. They're the poster-children that we still use to this day for "how to be unabashedly evil". Russia was our ally, of sorts. Now our bitter enemies are some of our strongest allies, and Russia is our enemy. Therefor, it would be foolish for Russia to think that NATO will just always be friendly with them for the next 200 years. 
2. You don't actually know what soured our relationship with Russia. You don't. You don't know what we did to them or what they did to us because that's not public and it's the kind of thing that our side and their side will both lie about. Look at the 2nd Iraq war... You don't think that compares to anything Russia did? Gimme a break. If you don't think we're a-holes too sometimes, your sense of smell is broken.   
3. Turkey is a pro-Hamas sh1thole. Pro-HAMAS. Are they really our allies? Are they really the kinds of people whose friendship and support we can rely on? 

• Turkey supports Pakistan's position of holding a plebiscite under the UN to decide if Kashmir wants to join Pakistan, 
• Türkiye's relations with Pakistan have developed on the basis of close friendship and brotherhood since the establishment of Pakistan as an independent state on 14 August 1947

Somehow the massacre of 1M Sikhs and Hindus in Pakistan in 1947 wasn't a problem for the Turks, but the 500 muslims killed in Israel in 1948 still need to be avenged, and a genocide in the millions is a fine place for them to start.

 

This completely ignores what has been my main point. Putin invaded an independent democratic country. Full stop.

He rejected all peace plans of 2022 because his goal was the overthrow of the Ukrainian government and the claim of all territory.

If his goal was just to ward off NATO, why has he made the historical claim of Russia to Ukraine his central thesis? What, I think he talked about it for 30 minutes in his interview with Creepy Carlson.

But you, and your cronies, have not really made any effective counterpoints to the evidence I have presented in any thread.

Oh, one thing about the Iraq war - The only concern Russia had with the it was whether they would be able to collect the $8 billion it was owed by Iraq due to the war with Iran.

 

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, Radiorum said:

This completely ignores what has been my main point. Putin invaded an independent democratic country. Full stop.

More like "Putin invaded a country. Full stop."

Because, regardless of how much you like Ukraine, they were antagonists in this war, and they're willing partners in it. They're not asking for anyone to broker peace, they want weapons.

Quote

He rejected all peace plans of 2022 because his goal was the overthrow of the Ukrainian government and the claim of all territory.

That's a lie. Putin absolutely did not "reject all peace plans".

There 4 were rounds of peace talks in early 2022, and both sides will give their own reasons why peace wasn't achieved.

There are many reports that indicate a peace deal actually was reached, and it was outside parties in the west that shot it down:

https://www.intellinews.com/top-ukrainian-politician-oleksiy-arestovych-gives-seventh-confirmation-of-russia-ukraine-peace-deal-agreed-in-march-2022-302876/

You'll never hear this from a SpinCo news org, CNN or MSNBC, but that doesn't have anything to do with the reality of the situation. Life is juts a series of false narratives for them. 

Edited November 24, 2024 by WestCanMan

[Radiorum]

10 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

hat's a lie. Putin absolutely did not "reject all peace plans".

Far from representing a viable vision for a sustainable peace, Putin’s 2022 proposal actually underlines his commitment to extinguishing Ukrainian statehood and erasing Ukraine from the map entirely.

Putin’s 2022 “peace proposal” was a blueprint for the destruction of Ukraine

[WestCanMan]

4 minutes ago, Radiorum said:

Far from representing a viable vision for a sustainable peace, Putin’s 2022 proposal actually underlines his commitment to extinguishing Ukrainian statehood and erasing Ukraine from the map entirely.

Putin’s 2022 “peace proposal” was a blueprint for the destruction of Ukraine

OMG IT WAS TOTALLY LIKE, THE WORSTEST THING EVER!!!! WHY DID UKRAINE EVEN SIGN IT?!?!?!?! 

The fine print on the bottom had a "We get to crush you all and take all your stuff" clause on it.  

[Nationalist]

8 hours ago, User said:

Yes, it is absurd. You explain then, how they are a dire threat. 

The USA would continue to exist with or without an enemy, what an absurd comment. NATO's existence would also continue, as they are a defensive alliance. While they were created to confront the threat of the Soviet Union and the ongoing threat of Russia, the nature of a defensive alliance doesn't stop if Russia goes away. 

What missiles are you talking about? 

 

 

Sorry I'm so late responding. Had a football kind o' Sunday. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/world/czech-demonstrators-protest-missile-shield-plans-idUSL268110/

Those missiles.

The entire establishment apparatus is falling apart. Trump will end the Ukraine war. He has to now. We both know this. NATO will slowly devolve and become a joke. 

Viva la freedom and truth.

[User]

1 minute ago, Nationalist said:

Those missiles.

OMG. ROFL. 

So, your big argument is that NATO was "pointing" DEFENSIVE missiles at Russia?

I might also point out that these missile are not "pointed" they are designed to intercept incoming missiles. 

Reminds of the silliness of people claiming we "pointed" ICBMS at each other in the cold war. No, ICBMS are pointed up and can quickly target almost any location on planet Earth. 

3 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Sorry I'm so late responding. Had a football kind o' Sunday. 

No worries! 

[User]

3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

WHY DID UKRAINE EVEN SIGN IT?!?!?!?! 

Where do you get they signed it?

[Nationalist]

2 minutes ago, User said:

OMG. ROFL. 

So, your big argument is that NATO was "pointing" DEFENSIVE missiles at Russia?

I might also point out that these missile are not "pointed" they are designed to intercept incoming missiles. 

Reminds of the silliness of people claiming we "pointed" ICBMS at each other in the cold war. No, ICBMS are pointed up and can quickly target almost any location on planet Earth. 

No worries! 

My Cowboys finally won a game. Gawd they're bad this year.

Anyway as I said, we both know Trump will end this war and I believe NATO is in for a very rude awakening.

[User]

3 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

My Cowboys finally won a game. Gawd they're bad this year.

My first year as a part time Cowboys fan and I don't know how you guys do it. I have Lamb on one of my more serious fantasy leagues. 
I am a Cheifs fan

4 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Anyway as I said, we both know Trump will end this war and I believe NATO is in for a very rude awakening.

Trump wants to win. Trump likes to win. I think you guys wildly overestimate that he is somehow just going to give in to Russia like you support. If Putin doesn't play ball and make serious concessions, I can see Trump dumping a crap ton more military support into Ukraine. 

Trump has only been as negative to NATO in as much as he wants them to pay their fair share and not survive off the backs of our military and our $$$. So,  not sure what rude awakening you think they are in for. 

[CdnFox]

Just now, User said:

My first year as a part time Cowboys fan and I don't know how you guys do it. I have Lamb on one of my more serious fantasy leagues. 

I don't know anything about American football, but now I want some lamb.

[NAME REMOVED]

4 hours ago, Radiorum said:

Far from representing a viable vision for a sustainable peace, Putin’s 2022 proposal actually underlines his commitment to extinguishing Ukrainian statehood and erasing Ukraine from the map entirely.

Putin’s 2022 “peace proposal” was a blueprint for the destruction of Ukraine

It i no use debating with the pro-Putin/Trump hyenas. They will blame Ukraine, until the bitter end. 

[NAME REMOVED]

45 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

My Cowboys finally won a game. Gawd they're bad this year.

 

I think it's time for you to jump on board, and ride the Lions train!

[Nationalist]

36 minutes ago, User said:

My first year as a part time Cowboys fan and I don't know how you guys do it. I have Lamb on one of my more serious fantasy leagues. 
I am a Cheifs fan

Trump wants to win. Trump likes to win. I think you guys wildly overestimate that he is somehow just going to give in to Russia like you support. If Putin doesn't play ball and make serious concessions, I can see Trump dumping a crap ton more military support into Ukraine. 

Trump has only been as negative to NATO in as much as he wants them to pay their fair share and not survive off the backs of our military and our $$$. So,  not sure what rude awakening you think they are in for. 

I've always been a Cowboys fan since the days of Rodger Stabauch. (SP?) I was a Washinton fan, but of the Redskins. Not this woke soaked bull.

I can't say for sure but I "sense" that Trump has already read Zelinsky the riot act and has Putin's agreement to a proposed treaty.

I never bought into the idea that Russia wants to conquer all of Ukraine. That never made sense. 

[Nationalist]

1 minute ago, DUI_Offender said:

I think it's time for you to jump on board, and ride the Lions train!

Naw. I don't jump ship that easily.

The Cowboys will be back. Not this year though. They need a better running back, a real quarterback, and Jimmy Jones needs to go.

[Fluffypants]

Just now, Nationalist said:

Naw. I don't jump ship that easily.

The Cowboys will be back. Not this year though. They need a better running back, a real quarterback, and Jimmy Jones needs to go.

[User]

2 hours ago, Nationalist said:

I never bought into the idea that Russia wants to conquer all of Ukraine. That never made sense. 

Well, sure... if you completely ignore the fact that on day one of the invasion, Russia was, in fact, trying to conquer all of Ukraine. 

 

[NAME REMOVED]

4 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Naw. I don't jump ship that easily.

The Cowboys will be back. Not this year though. They need a better running back, a real quarterback, and Jimmy Jones needs to go.

I am a life-long Vikings fan.  The Vikings are the best team never to win the Super Bowl. They really need a star QB to make it finally happen. 

[Scott75]

3 hours ago, User said:

Well, sure... if you completely ignore the fact that on day one of the invasion, Russia was, in fact, trying to conquer all of Ukraine. 

 

Absolute balderdash. Within the first few weeks, Ukraine almost made a peace deal with Russia wherein they would have left all the territory they'd taken since its military operation began in exchange for some very reasonable concessions on Ukraine's part. Alas, then UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson flew into Kyiv and told Zelensky not to take the deal:

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/ukraine-russia-war-peace-diplomacy/

That peace deal is no longer on the table, but I still strongly believe that Ukraine's best bet is to leave the last bit of turf they have in Kursk and get back to the negotiating table with Russia.

[Nationalist]

3 hours ago, phoenyx75 said:

Absolute balderdash. Within the first few weeks, Ukraine almost made a peace deal with Russia wherein they would have left all the territory they'd taken since its military operation began in exchange for some very reasonable concessions on Ukraine's part. Alas, then UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson flew into Kyiv and told Zelensky not to take the deal:

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/ukraine-russia-war-peace-diplomacy/

That peace deal is no longer on the table, but I still strongly believe that Ukraine's best bet is to leave the last bit of turf they have in Kursk and get back to the negotiating table with Russia.

Ya, why would Zelinsky have rejected such a favorable peace deal? None of that made any sense. Who really wanted the war to continue? Ukraine or the Americans and Brits?

[User]

5 hours ago, phoenyx75 said:

Absolute balderdash.

Holy crap man... the basic timeline proves your comments here are BS. 

Russia launched a full-scale invasion trying to conquer all of Ukraine on Feb 24, 2022. Borris Johnson did not show up to any peace talks until April 6th. 

That is not the first few weeks. 

That is just after Ukraine defeated Russia in the Battle of Keiv and stopped them from fully encircling Keiv. Russian forces had taken too long to try to conquer Keiv, they over extended their logistics, they could no longer hold their positions, and were forced to retreat. 

Russia was in fact, 100%, trying to conquer Ukraine. They failed. Only in their failure were they more prone to negotiate, and their demands were anything close to reasonable. 

They did not agree to leave all the territory they had taken, as they would have kept Crimea and all the regions in the Donbas.

And... if Russia wanted peace, they could have it anytime they wanted it. Ukraine is not keeping them in the invasion they started. All Russia has to do is stop invading, turn around, go home. They get peace. 

[Nationalist]

10 minutes ago, User said:

Holy crap man... the basic timeline proves your comments here are BS. 

Russia launched a full-scale invasion trying to conquer all of Ukraine on Feb 24, 2022. Borris Johnson did not show up to any peace talks until April 6th. 

That is not the first few weeks. 

That is just after Ukraine defeated Russia in the Battle of Keiv and stopped them from fully encircling Keiv. Russian forces had taken too long to try to conquer Keiv, they over extended their logistics, they could no longer hold their positions, and were forced to retreat. 

Russia was in fact, 100%, trying to conquer Ukraine. They failed. Only in their failure were they more prone to negotiate, and their demands were anything close to reasonable. 

They did not agree to leave all the territory they had taken, as they would have kept Crimea and all the regions in the Donbas.

And... if Russia wanted peace, they could have it anytime they wanted it. Ukraine is not keeping them in the invasion they started. All Russia has to do is stop invading, turn around, go home. They get peace. 

Russia just last week, sent unstoppable missiles into Ukraine...near Kiev.

Why do you think they didn't just blow Kiev off the map?

[User]

3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Ya, why would Zelinsky have rejected such a favorable peace deal? None of that made any sense. Who really wanted the war to continue? Ukraine or the Americans and Brits?

There was very little favorable about it, its like asking why someone doesn't accept a deal with a gun pointed to their heads. 

You guys act like this was some kind of in good faith negotiation, as if Russia was some kind and wonder actor... WHILE THEY WERE IN THE MIDDLE OF A FULL SCALE INVASION. 

Oh gee... why wouldn't someone think Russia is so wonderful and kind and benevolent when they already took Crimea, started a shadow war in the Donbas, and then launched a full scale invasion. Oh yeah, great peace negotiators to be taken very seriously. 

[Radiorum]

12 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

It i no use debating with the pro-Putin/Trump hyenas. They will blame Ukraine, until the bitter end. 

It's actually a small percentage of Americans that support Putin over Ukraine. A majority support Ukraine and have a favourable view of NATO, and fully 91% have an unfavourable view of Putin.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2023/05/10/americans-hold-positive-feelings-toward-nato-and-ukraine-see-russia-as-an-enemy/