The Cancer Called Multi-Culturalism

[Michael Hardner]

Argus:

I have debated with you here before, and though I completely disagree with your views, I do think they are based on some kind of principles.

With that knowledge, I read this post:

It's this sheer ignorance, this complete inability to even try to feel empathy for someone caught within a minority community and its value systems which always irritates me. When you grow up within the Muslim community, as an example, filled with immigrants and schooled from birth in the universally required submissiveness expected of women, how can you possibly reject all of that? Reject your entire extended family, your entire community, your religious teachers and Imams, all of whom are telling you that if you don't do as you're told, do not conform to their societal requirement that your parents must choose your mate, then you will be ostrasized, evicted from the community, become an outsider lost in that great outside culture of which you probably know little. What happens to an eighteen year old Muslim woman who has grown up within the local Muslim community and rejects her parents and family's demands she go to Egypt or Lebanon to marry a man twice her age? How can she possibly cope being shut out of a tight-knit community which is the overwhelming basis of her entire life to that point in time? She has no non-Muslim friends. She was never allowed to partake in the greater Canadian culture which imbues young women with a modern spirit of self-reliance and confidence in their equality. What is she supposed to do if she refuses?

It's clear to me that you find isolationist communities abhorrent. You resent the fact that they don't adhere to Canadian values, whatever they may be. You use Muslims as an example, but since your complaint is with the idea of cultural isolationism, I can't take you to task for being anti-Muslim.

But, I hope you won't' mind if I ask a few questions just to verify in my own mind that these ideas or sentiments are borne out of xenophobia.

Cultural isolationism has been practiced by other groups in Canada long before 9-11. Orthodox Jews and Mennonites are two groups that come to mind. Both are religious communities where women hold a lower status than men. Would you consider them to be Canadian ? If so, then what is the difference ?

I would say that you wouldn't based on your posts above. You could, I'm sure, come up with another set of principles that would further refine your views, and would separate Muslims from these two groups but I hope you don't.

I'd also like to say that I see something positive in yours and Betsy's idea that there is something called a Canadian value. That is a point where I think right-and left- thinkers could agree on. Some have put forward that our constitution represents our values but I think a separate declaration could be a positive and unifying initiative. It wouldn't have to be legally binding, but it would be something that we could rally around to say 'yes, we have freedom of religion in Canada and yes, we protect your rights but this is what we're all about'.

[BubberMiley]

Besides, Imagine is a pretty good song. A little overplayed but much better than that song about humps by Black-eyed Peas.

But I may be mistaken, but Betsy, didn't you once say you're Filipino?

Yes she did.

What's your point?

I suspect I know what it is but I'd like you to explain it to the forum.

I did already when she asked the same question. Read the thread.

[BubberMiley]

your suggestion that people on this thread want to enforce a "white, Anglo Saxon Protestant uber alles) version of Canadian identity?" other than accusing us of having Nazi sympathies?

But no, you weren't insulting anyone. Of course not.

I didn't say that. You're not reading the names to the left of the sentences.

If you ask me, being falsely accused of insulting someone is more annoying than being insulted.

[BubberMiley]

We've heard of cases where-in women were murdered for refusing an arranged marriage. Didn't we just have case like that in BC recently?

For some, it goes beyond just simple "scoldings." Hence the word, "cannot".

I think there's already a system in place to discourage murder.

The mother and uncle who had Jassi Kaur Sidhu murdered are still honoured members of the BC Sikh community, and the uncle is on the board of directors of his local sikh temple. There has been no move to even investigate their actions because of pressure from the Sikh community on the government to let it lie.

So then how do you know they murdered her if it hasn't been investigated?

[BubberMiley]

Are you actually suggesting non-Whites can't be truly Canadian?

Nope, I'm saying that non-whites can't be white.

[August1991]

Cultural isolationism has been practiced by other groups in Canada long before 9-11. Orthodox Jews and Mennonites are two groups that come to mind. Both are religious communities where women hold a lower status than men. Would you consider them to be Canadian ? If so, then what is the difference ?

There are about 35,000 Mennonites in Canada and a similar number of Orthodox Jews. Neither community is growing significantly, certainly not through immigration. There are about 600,000 Muslims in Canada, and the population is growing by immigration. (Of course, not all these Muslims are strictly pious, or traditional in the sense Argus implied.)

North America, like India, has assimilated many people of different origins who have moved here. It may take a generation or two but the result is usually the same: a belief in the individual's right to choose freely.

[Michael Hardner]

There are about 35,000 Mennonites in Canada and a similar number of Orthodox Jews. Neither community is growing significantly, certainly not through immigration. There are about 600,000 Muslims in Canada, and the population is growing by immigration. (Of course, not all these Muslims are strictly pious, or traditional in the sense Argus implied.)

So you've come up with a modification to the original principle which is effectively tailored towards Muslims.

I'm well aware that it's still an objective principle-based opinion, but - let's face it - wouldn't it be more honest for people to to say 'I don't like Muslims. Let's keep them out.' if they feel that way ?

I'm not saying you feel that way, but there are people on this board who do, and they hide their prejudice behind logical constructs such as this.

North America, like India, has assimilated many people of different origins who have moved here. It may take a generation or two but the result is usually the same: a belief in the individual's right to choose freely.

Agreed.

[BubberMiley]

Except the Hutterites. They keep to themselves and rarely leave the colonies. Are there still Dukhobors out west?

[Montgomery Burns]

Besides, Imagine is a pretty good song. A little overplayed but much better than that song about humps by Black-eyed Peas.

But I may be mistaken, but Betsy, didn't you once say you're Filipino?

Yes she did.

What's your point?

I suspect I know what it is but I'd like you to explain it to the forum.

I did already when she asked the same question. Read the thread.

Ah yes. Betsy doesn't know her true place; just like those traiterous black Republicans?

[Argus]

your suggestion that people on this thread want to enforce a "white, Anglo Saxon Protestant uber alles) version of Canadian identity?" other than accusing us of having Nazi sympathies?

But no, you weren't insulting anyone. Of course not.

I didn't say that. You're not reading the names to the left of the sentences.

If you ask me, being falsely accused of insulting someone is more annoying than being insulted.

You are correct and I apologise unreservedly. I have deleted the post to which you replied.

[betsy]

Speaking of which, you didn't indicate what I said to accuse me of going into attack and insult mode.

I guess your sudden reference to my being a Filipino took me by surprise. You made ridiculing quips laced with insulting tones in other threads. But I guess I was wrong about this one...so I apologise.

Of course it didn't help that you happen to have come along right after Gerry's post.

[betsy]

But I may be mistaken, but Betsy, didn't you once say you're Filipino?

yes.

And what about it?

It just strikes me as interesting that you take the side of those who don't think you belong here.

Why do you assume that just because I belong to this so-called "visible minority"...that I could not see through this nonsense of multi-culturalism?

Being a "visible minority" doesn't mean we automatically "take the sides" of those righteous purporting to fight for our best interest. I am not the only visible minority who happens to think that multi-culturalism is not going to work. It's just plain common sense. This is courting disaster!

[Argus]

It's this sheer ignorance, this complete inability to even try to feel empathy for someone caught within a minority community and its value systems which always irritates me. When you grow up within the Muslim community, as an example, filled with immigrants and schooled from birth in the universally required submissiveness expected of women, how can you possibly reject all of that? Reject your entire extended family, your entire community, your religious teachers and Imams, all of whom are telling you that if you don't do as you're told, do not conform to their societal requirement that your parents must choose your mate, then you will be ostrasized, evicted from the community, become an outsider lost in that great outside culture of which you probably know little. What happens to an eighteen year old Muslim woman who has grown up within the local Muslim community and rejects her parents and family's demands she go to Egypt or Lebanon to marry a man twice her age? How can she possibly cope being shut out of a tight-knit community which is the overwhelming basis of her entire life to that point in time? She has no non-Muslim friends. She was never allowed to partake in the greater Canadian culture which imbues young women with a modern spirit of self-reliance and confidence in their equality. What is she supposed to do if she refuses?

It's clear to me that you find isolationist communities abhorrent. You resent the fact that they don't adhere to Canadian values, whatever they may be. You use Muslims as an example, but since your complaint is with the idea of cultural isolationism, I can't take you to task for being anti-Muslim.

I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to suggest I am anti-Muslim. I am quite doubtful with regard to very religious people or groups. I am far more doubtful about militantly orthodox and intollerent religious groups - whether those groups are noted for producing a lot of violent fanatics or not. And I regard Islam, moderate or not, as extremely militant in its requirements of its adherents, and extremely intollerent towards other communities, and in its treatment of those within its community who stray from orthodoxy. The legions of violent fanatics just goes on top of that. So if you were to ask me if one of the changes I would like to see to immigration would be an end to Muslim immigration I would say "yes".

But, I hope you won't' mind if I ask a few questions just to verify in my own mind that these ideas or sentiments are borne out of xenophobia.

They are born out of a deeply rooted belief in and respect for our secular culture, values and traditions, and a deep suspicion of the idea of bringing over millions of people who don't share that respect. Xenophobia is the wrong term. It suggests an unreasoning and unreasonable fear of foreigners. I don't fear foreigners. I dislike extremists, and that is not unreasoning. Dennis Mills somewhat famously said, when speaking of being prejudiced towards Muslims, that prejudice means to "Pre Judge". "I'm not pre-judging them," he said. "I'm judging them".

Cultural isolationism has been practiced by other groups in Canada long before 9-11. Orthodox Jews and Mennonites are two groups that come to mind. Both are religious communities where women hold a lower status than men. Would you consider them to be Canadian ? If so, then what is the difference ?

I don't know a lot about the Hutterites or Mennonites, or Dukabours, if that's what you mean. I would generally say that as they appear peaceful and productive, It's not really an interest of mine. I don't know how intollerent they are of other communities. My perception is, at least for the first two, that they tend to disagree softly, quietly and politely, that they are not, in other words militantly intollerent of other groups. I would still not be in favour of greatly expanding those communities, however - as we have been doing with the Muslim community. And I am not in favour of their isolationism or in their being able to flout our laws, as I believe some religious groups do with regard to child brides and the like. I have heard that some of these groups practice "shunning", of those community members who fall out of favour with religiuous leaders - the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, and I admit a deep suspicion of such religious groups.

I'd also like to say that I see something positive in yours and Betsy's idea that there is something called a Canadian value. That is a point where I think right-and left- thinkers could agree on.

Actually, there are people on the Left on this site who have sneered at the very notion Canada has a culture. But of course, any community is more than simply words on a piece of paper. Its culture, its values are the result of shared history which has produced a culture and value system the vast majority of that community believe in.

[Argus]

Are you actually suggesting non-Whites can't be truly Canadian?

Nope, I'm saying that non-whites can't be white.

And why did you feel the neccessity of introducing colour into the discussion? What has colour got to do with whether or not one is a Canadian or not?

[Argus]

The mother and uncle who had Jassi Kaur Sidhu murdered are still honoured members of the BC Sikh community, and the uncle is on the board of directors of his local sikh temple. There has been no move to even investigate their actions because of pressure from the Sikh community on the government to let it lie.

So then how do you know they murdered her if it hasn't been investigated?

The evidence is rather overwhelming, including the testimony of those convicted of the killing. Look it up.

[sideshow]

I would hate to wake up and have everyone the same as me.

Imagine eating nothing but lobster every day. It sounds great at first, but you will want steak soon enough.

[BubberMiley]

Ah yes. Betsy doesn't know her true place; just like those traiterous black Republicans?

No, I wouldn't say that at all. People are complicated and their opinions are formed by a number of factors, certainly not just race. I would take issue with you calling black Republicans traiterous too.

[BubberMiley]

You are correct and I apologise unreservedly. I have deleted the post to which you replied.

Apology humbly accepted.

[Argus]

I would hate to wake up and have everyone the same as me.

Imagine eating nothing but lobster every day. It sounds great at first, but you will want steak soon enough.

There is a difference between having everyone "the same" and having everyone hate you and think your wife and daughter are whores because they shows their legs in summer.

There are vast differences within a homogenous cultural group which allows differences, such as ours.

[sideshow]

Did you know that the Criminal Code of Canada makes it completely legal for a 14 year old to have a sexual relationship with a 50 year old (as long as the 50 year old is not in a position of trust over the 14 year old)?

Gotta love them "Canadian" values.

I would never presume to impose my values upon others. And I would never be so arrogant to think my beliefs are the right ones, the only ones, the most positive ones, etc. I think that allowing people to be "multi cultural" allows freedom of expression-which I believe forms part of the "Canadian" constitution, does it not?

[southerncomfort]

Did you know that the Criminal Code of Canada makes it completely legal for a 14 year old to have a sexual relationship with a 50 year old (as long as the 50 year old is not in a position of trust over the 14 year old)?

Gotta love them "Canadian" values.

I would never presume to impose my values upon others. And I would never be so arrogant to think my beliefs are the right ones, the only ones, the most positive ones, etc. I think that allowing people to be "multi cultural" allows freedom of expression-which I believe forms part of the "Canadian" constitution, does it not?

Sure as long as freedom of expression does not allow others to demand my death cos they don't like what they say, or issue fatwas on someone cos they don't like what they wrote. It swings both ways.

I agree that multicult is not a glue holding the country together, it separates people.