The Cancer Called Multi-Culturalism

[betsy]

What is wrong about blending together as one people, adhereing to common ground that binds us together?

Nothing. Except how do you propose to accomplish this?

It has to start with applicants for immigration, an information package explicitly explaining and enumerating what foundation Canada stands on. It ought to be spelt out that assimilation and integration is expected of immigrants, and most importantly for the new-comers to readily accept and embrace the same values Canada adheres to (even if it means going against their own religion)...after all, why would they choose to come here if they do not wish the lifestyle Canada has to offer?

Immigrants' cultural traditions (that do not clash with any or all of Canada's own values) will be tolerated but they will not be imposed upon the Canadian society, (that includes funding for such traditions/events).

Immigrants must willingly shed off and will not bring in hostilities against other groups who had also chosen to live amongst us, even if it means going against their own religion.

Any false claims or statements in their documents can have their status revoked...even to the point of losing their Canadian citizenship, leading to deportation.

Upon arrival, a new-comer should attend a few months orientation class, where-in he will be acquainted with how the system works...from the basics that also includes simple things such as using an ATM machine etc..

A lot of immigrants are not used to these kinds of things and that could be really intimidating and daunting.

This greatly limits a new-comer...and some end up clinging to their "own people" because of these simple kinds of insecurities.

This orientation class is the first key step to integration and assimilation. Just think of all these new comers from different cultures and backgrounds...all grouped together in this class and learning and making their first steps together.

The applicant must be willing to learn either English or French (or both) upon arrival.

A trial residence status of at least 3 years before qualifying for citizenship, where-in the new-comer must show that he is not a liability to this society. A steady employment and no criminal offenses (including minor criminal offenses) is a must during this period.

Any social fundings Canada will do regarding immigration will have to be aimed towards aggressive encouragement of assimilation and integration.

Applicants for immigration must have a cooling period of at least 3 months after receiving the information/expectation package...so they can really decide if this is the kind of life they wish to live.

That's just some of the things I could think of.

[betsy]

But if multiculturalism means a young woman cannot choose freely her partner, then I disagree.

I don't think there's any risk in Canada of a woman being legally obliged to marry someone she doesn't want to.

Bubbler, why do you add the adverb "legally" to your post?

Re-read (re-post) your phrase without the adverb.

What did you mean by "cannot" if not legally cannot? Morally cannot? Cannot without being scolded by their parents? I'm sorry if I'm being obtuse, but I don't see any other context than a legal one when dealing with societal issues.

BTW, I kind of prefer the name Bubbler. I wonder if I can change it.

We've heard of cases where-in women were murdered for refusing an arranged marriage. Didn't we just have case like that in BC recently?

For some, it goes beyond just simple "scoldings." Hence the word, "cannot".

[betsy]

Yes, what's "cannot"? What betsy and the other culture bashers are talking about here is their disgust with arranged marriage. It still goes on, and there's pressure from parents to follow through SOMETIMES but in the end we're a nation of laws and people are free to choose.

Thanks for reminding me.....another idea I have how we can go about aggressive integration and assimilation:

Remember how it's been said that bigotry and intolerance is passed on since it is something usually learned from parents?

Responsibilities must be placed greatly upon elders or parents who come to Canada to make sure that their children understands what is expected of immigrants. That is another decision a parent has to make before uprooting his family to settle in Canada. The risk of losing their status, if they display their bigotry or intolerance for certain groups when they come to this place. Any children of minor age will also end up losing his status if his parents lose theirs.

There must be a grace period where-in one can still lose their citizenship should they commit any serious crimes. 10 years? For those who've been here past that limit will just have to be treated like any long-standing bonafide Canadian and face the Canadian law.

[BubberMiley]

We've heard of cases where-in women were murdered for refusing an arranged marriage. Didn't we just have case like that in BC recently?

For some, it goes beyond just simple "scoldings." Hence the word, "cannot".

I think there's already a system in place to discourage murder.

[betsy]

WOW! See Bubber and Gerry jump into attack and insult mode pronto! Guns blazing. Right on cue.

You probably automatically interpret my topic as meaning...."NO MORE IMMIGRANTS".

Get a grip, guys.

Yeah, wow huh?

Actually I interpreted it as "DITCH ALL YOUR CULTURAL TRADITIONS OR GO HOME!!"

It's a vile, intollerant web you weave.

I'm sure you just must be jesting....or readers will think you do not understand what you read.

[BubberMiley]

Speaking of which, you didn't indicate what I said to accuse me of going into attack and insult mode.

[Argus]

Ooo, clever. I don't think I've ever seen that one before. Novel response.

When faced with undeniable truth in an argument, dismiss it as a cliche or as a stereotype. Works every time.

The undeniable truth is that if you go back far enough every single person on this planet comes from people who moved from one place, one nation, one continent, to another, including the aborigines or 'natives" who merely immigrated to north america earlier than the Europeans.

So the cliche, in this case, is mindless, brainless and idiotic.

[Argus]

Don't worry about it betsy. In heaven they've got a 50's section for you where there's no Sikhs, Muslims, and the only blacks are waiting tables.

Reported to moderator.

[Argus]

If someone passes the citizenship test, they're more Canadian than most people born here. The things they need to know to pass that test are historical facts and knowledge that I bet you 90% of the people born here don't know. I have the utmost respect for someone who studies our history and culture to the degree that is needed to come out of the citizenship testing with a pass.

Okay, so by your reasoning, if I learn all about Chinese history I'm more Chinese than anyone born there, right?

Is that all being Canadian means to you? The ability to write a book report on a history text?

[Argus]

I think the economics of the situation trump all, unfortunately. Why have they increased immigration levels per year in Canada and let it remain for well over a decade? We know there are benefits, but what was the reason.

The reason is political correctness, and maintaining the traditional Liberal stranglehold over ethnic communities whose representatives are well-bribed and well-organized by the Liberal Party of Canada.

The reasons for mass immigration have NOTHING to do with Canada's well-being or economy.

How about we can't even maintain our own population levels without immigration. That's right, we are not producing enough kids to maintain or expand our numbers. I remember hearing that to maintain population, each family needs to produce 2.3 kids.

If you actually investigate you'll find Canada has one of the western world's higher birth rates. There are, morever, a number of factors governing birth rates, many of which are economic. There have been strong suggestions, in fact, that high immigration negatively impacts wage rates, and thus in turn tends to lower the birth rate.

There is no demonstrated economic need for mass immigration in Canada. There is, in fact, plenty of information that it negatively impacts our economy and society and costs us a lot of money.

And a shrinking population means a shrinking economy, with all the bad spin off effects that would happen year after decade.

It does? What bad spin off effects would those be? According to what I have seen Canada's population rate would not shrink, even with no immigration, for about fifty years, and then would shrink very, very slowly.

And can you tell me any way, shape or form in which Canada's economy or its people are better off with our present population of 30 million than we were with 20 million? Any way at all?

[Argus]

del

[Argus]

Why do you think that someone thinking multi-culturalism is not going to work means that they think somebody like me do not belong here?

Because opposition to multiculturalism is usually based on the idea that we should all blend together and become one people. I think skin colour has a profound influence on both personal identity and others' perceptions and, so long as people look different from one another, they can't truly blend.

Are you actually suggesting non-Whites can't be truly Canadian? I think you have a bizarre mindset and a cliche'd view of what being Canadian means. It does not mean everyone is the same colour and religion. I posted a long, drawn out, stream of thought article last month on what it means to be a Canadian, and nowhere in it was "white people only" printed. Why can't Ray Emery, Ottawa Senator's current goalie, born in Hamilton, who grew up wildly enthusiastic about hockey, spending his Saturdays in in hockey arenas like so many Canadian boys, less a Canadian than anyone else simply because he's Black? I don't think of Ray Emery as any different than any other Canadian. His skin colour is utterly irrelevent.

Now contrast that to a paler skinned Muslim, say from Iran, who wraps his women in burkhas, watches only TV beamed to him from the Muslim world, reads foreign newspapers, looks around at Canadians with contempt and disgust for how whorish our women are, how Godless our men, and how undisciplined our children. Do I consider him a Canadian? Not on your life.

And his daughter? Other Canadian girls are growing up socializing with other kids, dating, going to the beach, going camping, playing sports, having sleepovers watching chick flicks and scary movies. She's growing up in a chador, attending special religious schools, watching Muslim television, with no dating and only attending Muslim community get-togethers, then is shipped back to Iran at sixteen to be married to a forty year old man. No, I don't consider her Canadian either.

And I don't care what shade their skin is.

[Argus]

While we should recognize individual rights we need not recognize group rights.

While we all should be tolerant and respectful of other beliefs, any Country needs universally shared values and norms to bind it together, without that, there isn't a Country.

Do we not have a Constitution and a Charter of Rights that does just that? I'm not sure what else you can do: as long as individual's cultural beliefs and practices do not violate the laws of the land, there's precious little anyone can do about them. Basically: how do you enforce culture?

You can't. But you can make it easier or harder for Canada to absorb newcomers. Bringing massive numbers of newcomers year after year from the same area and nation and culture only ensures a burgeoning local ethnic group which, if it grows large enough, becomes self-sustaining. I think, moreover, we should make it much more difficult for Canadians to marry non-Canadians. I think the practice of ethnics going abroad when they reach marriage age, back to their "home" in search of a mate, not only short circuits the very foundation behind the belief immigrants will eventually blend in, but indicates a complete rejection of our society by the immigrants who do this.

[Argus]

If you take slavery out of the equation, it has been successful. The slavery issue is a special problem with the states that has never really been dealt with head on.

But even if you take slavery out of the equation (impossible under the circumstances) the fundamental fact remains that you cannot prevent immigrants from retaining their own culture if they so desire.

Then select your immigrants from groups whose cultural value set is as similar to yours as possible.

And if that means bringing in Ukrainians instead of Egyptians then I'm fine with that.

[Argus]

I still believe that multicult. creates divisions and creates suspicions, it also breeds alienation causing groups to live apart and separate from the mainstream and mainstream opportunities. People from other cultures should accomodate to Canadian society and leave any hostilities and discriminations behind them.

I'm actually not certain what you mean by multiculturalism in this context. Do you mean federal programs that fund multicultural organizations, ethnic groups keeping to themselves and not partaking in broader Canadian society, or the whole idea of pan-cultural immigration?

Yeah.

[gerryhatrick]

What the h#ll is this, a one-man band?

Nine in a row!!

Argus, save yourself a little typing. If you're going to make moderator reports, just do it. Trust me, nothign pisses moderators off more than people who run around announcing that they're reporting to the moderator. Just do it and keep it to yourself.

[gerryhatrick]

We've heard of cases where-in women were murdered for refusing an arranged marriage. Didn't we just have case like that in BC recently?

We just had a case where a white guy murdered his wife to get some money and be free to f#$k around, like he'd been doing behind her back anyway..

Damn white culture, huh? It's just poison. Just like all those Sikhs. Poison.

And the Muslims, right betsy? More poison.

Save us some time. Any cultures not poison in your view?

[Argus]

Yes, what's "cannot"? What betsy and the other culture bashers are talking about here is their disgust with arranged marriage. It still goes on, and there's pressure from parents to follow through SOMETIMES but in the end we're a nation of laws and people are free to choose.

It's this sheer ignorance, this complete inability to even try to feel empathy for someone caught within a minority community and its value systems which always irritates me. When you grow up within the Muslim community, as an example, filled with immigrants and schooled from birth in the universally required submissiveness expected of women, how can you possibly reject all of that? Reject your entire extended family, your entire community, your religious teachers and Imams, all of whom are telling you that if you don't do as you're told, do not conform to their societal requirement that your parents must choose your mate, then you will be ostrasized, evicted from the community, become an outsider lost in that great outside culture of which you probably know little. What happens to an eighteen year old Muslim woman who has grown up within the local Muslim community and rejects her parents and family's demands she go to Egypt or Lebanon to marry a man twice her age? How can she possibly cope being shut out of a tight-knit community which is the overwhelming basis of her entire life to that point in time? She has no non-Muslim friends. She was never allowed to partake in the greater Canadian culture which imbues young women with a modern spirit of self-reliance and confidence in their equality. What is she supposed to do if she refuses?

Not that some don't, of course. Strong young people who have partaken in rather more of Canada's culture than their families would have preferred. But many are too weak to challenge all that and refuse.

Then, of course, there are cases like Jassi Kaur Sidhu, a Sikh girl murdered by her family for marrying someone they dissaproved of. Sometimes there is more than mere moral and cultural pressure. Violence can come into play, too.

[Argus]

We've heard of cases where-in women were murdered for refusing an arranged marriage. Didn't we just have case like that in BC recently?

For some, it goes beyond just simple "scoldings." Hence the word, "cannot".

I think there's already a system in place to discourage murder.

The mother and uncle who had Jassi Kaur Sidhu murdered are still honoured members of the BC Sikh community, and the uncle is on the board of directors of his local sikh temple. There has been no move to even investigate their actions because of pressure from the Sikh community on the government to let it lie.

[Argus]

What the h#ll is this, a one-man band?

Nine in a row!!

<shrug> I dno't have anything else to do this morning.

Argus, save yourself a little typing. If you're going to make moderator reports, just do it. Trust me, nothign pisses moderators off more than people who run around announcing that they're reporting to the moderator. Just do it and keep it to yourself.

It was meant to indicate to the group at large that your post was, in my opinion, unacceptable. The moderator tends to contact people in private over such things. I felt a public mention might serve to keep the conversation more civilized.

[Argus]

We've heard of cases where-in women were murdered for refusing an arranged marriage. Didn't we just have case like that in BC recently?

We just had a case where a white guy murdered his wife to get some money and be free to f#$k around, like he'd been doing behind her back anyway..

Damn white culture, huh?

And is he still free? Still an honoured member of his community and local church? No police investigation ongoing?

[gerryhatrick]

It's this sheer ignorance, this complete inability to even try to feel empathy for someone caught within a minority community and its value systems which always irritates me. When you grow up within the Muslim community, as an example, filled with immigrants and schooled from birth in the universally required submissiveness expected of women, how can you possibly reject all of that? Reject your entire extended family, your entire community, your religious teachers and Imams, all of whom are telling you that if you don't do as you're told, do not conform to their societal requirement that your parents must choose your mate, then you will be ostrasized, evicted from the community, become an outsider lost in that great outside culture of which you probably know little.

You want to see ignorance look in the mirror. What you describe above is a rarity. I am familiar with our large Muslim community and there are no such pressures on the 1st generation Canadians I contact within that community.

You are describing extreme cases that get highlighted in the media and implying not only that the majority of Muslims in Canada fit your description, but even going so far as to condemn all of the rich culture they possess (if you agree with betsy on the last point).

And all the Muslim women I've seen are far from submissive. Most of them I've seem wear the pants.

[Argus]

It's this sheer ignorance, this complete inability to even try to feel empathy for someone caught within a minority community and its value systems which always irritates me. When you grow up within the Muslim community, as an example, filled with immigrants and schooled from birth in the universally required submissiveness expected of women, how can you possibly reject all of that? Reject your entire extended family, your entire community, your religious teachers and Imams, all of whom are telling you that if you don't do as you're told, do not conform to their societal requirement that your parents must choose your mate, then you will be ostrasized, evicted from the community, become an outsider lost in that great outside culture of which you probably know little.

You want to see ignorance look in the mirror. What you describe above is a rarity. I am familiar with our large Muslim community and there are no such pressures on the 1st generation Canadians I contact within that community.

I'm afraid the sensitivity to nuance you have displayed thus far on this site gives me little confidence in your assesment.

[Montgomery Burns]

Besides, Imagine is a pretty good song. A little overplayed but much better than that song about humps by Black-eyed Peas.

But I may be mistaken, but Betsy, didn't you once say you're Filipino?

Yes she did.

What's your point?

I suspect I know what it is but I'd like you to explain it to the forum.

[Montgomery Burns]

But I may be mistaken, but Betsy, didn't you once say you're Filipino?

yes.

And what about it?

It just strikes me as interesting that you take the side of those who don't think you belong here.

Wow. Talk about jumping to conclusions.

Just like Cynthia McKinney when she got caught assaulting a policeman the other day....it's all racism.