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Should Canada reduce immigration/temporary residents to less than 200,000 for the next 5 years?


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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 Maybe Canadians can have all adult males and females in the reserve armed forces as well.  We need to make it as easy as possible for Canadian families and individuals to thrive economically and otherwise.  Everything else is BS.

The fertility rate is not going to increase above 2 children per family anytime soon, if ever. It has little to do with thriving economically. In fact, economic prosperity is inversely related to fertility.

The poorest countries in the World have the highest fertility rates. 

Edited by DUI_Offender
Posted
12 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

The fertility rate is not going to increase above 2 children per family anytime soon, if ever. It has little to do with thriving economically. In fact, economic prosperity is inversely related to fertility.

The poorest countries in the World have the highest fertility rates. 

That's true but not true.

Highly prosperous countries have evolved to the point where for the vast majority of them it is now necessary to have two working people just to have a reasonable standard of life. As countries prosper they tend to drive costs up and up and it requires more and more to make a middle-class lifestyle for that country.

Added to that is the availability of contraceptives and abortion in those wealthier countries. 

In poor countries where the quality of life is considerably lower you tend to see more stay at home parents. You can have five kids if there's someone in the home to care for them who doesn't need to work outside the home just to pay the bills.

100 years ago in Canada canada was considered a prosperous and wealthy nation at the time but had a Fertility rate radically higher than it is right now at about 3.5 births per women. 

Our fertility rate stayed high till the late 60's when 2 changes happened:  Abortion and contraception became legal, and women won the right to have their income counted when banks considered how large of a mortgage a couple could have. 

Take a look at this chart to see what happened after those two events in the later part of the 60's. 

Fertility in Canada, 1921 to 2022

image.thumb.png.939963310d605937fca42f29d2a8a3aa.png

Suddenly women needed to work more so that the couple could afford a nicer home and at the same time they had access to technology to avoid having children like they never had in the past. And the birth rate reflected that.

 

At the end of the day it's not morals, or ancient traditions, or even wealth exactly. If the nature of the society requires two Breadwinners in order for the household to be successful and if that society has easy access and affordability to birth control and abortion then you will have a low birth rate. And that is certainly what happened in Canada

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

The fertility rate is not going to increase above 2 children per family anytime soon, if ever. It has little to do with thriving economically. In fact, economic prosperity is inversely related to fertility.

The poorest countries in the World have the highest fertility rates. 

Well poorer rural economies have larger families, but in modern democracies affordability is critical factor in the decision to have children, affordability of food, housing, clothing, all the basics.  It’s one reason that the US has a .3 higher fertility rate than Canada.  Of course there are many factors: urbanization, education, access to birth control and abortion, the beliefs/values of the population, etc.  Just having kids mindlessly clearly isn’t the goal either.  My point is that if you don’t incentivize having kids or at least make it affordable to have them, people won’t have them, especially in an urban “me” society where non-heteronormative relationships are given equal weight to “normie” ones, etc. Maybe all of this is the inevitable result of “progress”, the fin de ciecle of civilization at its excessive end, but note that there are a few longstanding civilizations perpetuating themselves: Israel, Ireland, etc. Surely this is due to culture and policy. Canada will have to rely on immigration just to maintain its population. Immigration can be good in many ways, but it should be carefully controlled and steady.  What we’ve seen in Canada these past few years is silly.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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Posted
2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

but in modern democracies affordability is critical factor in the decision to have children, affordability of food, housing, clothing, all the basics.  It’s one reason that the US has a .3 higher fertility rate than Canada.

As you note there are many factors but this is easily one of the largest determining factors. Especially when combined to easy access to Affordable birth control.

I'm not saying anything against birth control and I'm not saying anything like women shouldn't work, but the reality is the inevitable result in virtually every country where those things are present is a low fertility rate.

And our fertility rate is going down right now for that very reason. When the laws changed in the 70s it was nice if the woman worked part-time to help buy a nicer house. Now both spouses have to work full-time jobs and they better be making good money each just to have a modest lifestyle, and now that isn't even a great lifestyle and people are still struggling on two incomes.

So there is zero time to have a baby and There are many affordable ways for them to avoid getting pregnant and readily available abortion if they do get pregnant, so what couple in their right mind would have more than one child? And even one child is really getting sketchy.

Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, CdnFox said:

As you note there are many factors but this is easily one of the largest determining factors. Especially when combined to easy access to Affordable birth control.

I'm not saying anything against birth control and I'm not saying anything like women shouldn't work, but the reality is the inevitable result in virtually every country where those things are present is a low fertility rate.

And our fertility rate is going down right now for that very reason. When the laws changed in the 70s it was nice if the woman worked part-time to help buy a nicer house. Now both spouses have to work full-time jobs and they better be making good money each just to have a modest lifestyle, and now that isn't even a great lifestyle and people are still struggling on two incomes.

So there is zero time to have a baby and There are many affordable ways for them to avoid getting pregnant and readily available abortion if they do get pregnant, so what couple in their right mind would have more than one child? And even one child is really getting sketchy.

When I think about this paradox of being able to do more through technology and earn more through dual income having the result that we  work more than ever and have essentially abandoned and devalued the home as a place where people can have their own private space away from work, with their own kids and even a spouse who takes care of that realm, and to see our clear cut mass suicide through low fertility at the same time, it’s hard not to see why the old moral teachings and prohibitions carry weight.  When people detach sex from fertility and place work above family, everything we read about in the ancient stories happens.  The Amish, the  Orthodox Jews, traditional Muslims, the Indigenous who live off the land, may have the last laugh.

I’m not suggesting we give up electricity and tell women they can’t work, but a somewhat more traditional lifestyle is a better recipe for the cultural and biological continuation of a people than working most of your waking hours to pay for your downtown live-work studio where you can comfort yourself in your short downtime with expensive takeout, weed, booze, and porn, and maybe a girlfriend who doesn’t want to risk not being able to pay the mortgage on her studio or being able to afford the fashionable look and lifestyle that your narcissism expects by having your baby.  Sadly that’s the reality for many young adults.  Our media and policies reinforce it.

Edited by Zeitgeist
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Posted
12 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

When I think about this paradox of being able to do more through technology and earn more through dual income having the result that we  work more than ever and have essentially abandoned and devalued the home as a place where people can have their own private space away from work, with their own kids and even a spouse who takes care of that realm, and to see our clear cut mass suicide through low fertility at the same time, it’s hard not to see why the old moral teachings and prohibitions carry weight.  When people detach sex from fertility and place work above family, everything we read about in the ancient stories happens.  The Amish, the  Orthodox Jews, traditional Muslims, the Indigenous who live off the land, may have the last laugh.

I’m not suggesting we give up electricity and tell women they can’t work, but a somewhat more traditional lifestyle is a better recipe for the cultural and biological continuation of a people than working most of your waking hours to pay for your downtown live-work studio where you can comfort yourself in your short downtime with expensive takeout, weed, booze, and porn, and maybe a girlfriend who doesn’t want to risk not being able to pay the mortgage on her studio or being able to afford the fashionable look and lifestyle that your narcissism expects by having your baby.  Sadly that’s the reality for many young adults.  Our media and policies reinforce it.

I know this is a discussion forum and we're supposed to be debating and arguing ideas, and honestly i would debate all of that with you, except that facts, reason, history, statistics, observable conditions, science, math, experience, common knowledge, research results, social experiment results, psychology, economics and my mother all agree with your position so it makes it kind of hard for me to argue 

Let me see if i can find you a liberal......

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  • 1 month later...
Posted

Definitely. In addition immigration from all Islamic countries should be banned. Despite their assertions, Islam is NOT a religion. It is a violent supremacist political ideology masquerading as a religion and it has no place in western culture!

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