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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

1. I guess that's one way of putting it, but I don't think you really understand what you're pushing back against. I'd say what you and others are essentially trying to push back the LGBTQ community back into the small corner of society that it used to inhabit. It's not happening. But I guess you'll keep on trying, one insult at a time.

2. I've already said that I skeptical that pole dancing in front of kids is a good idea, regardless of whether they're drag queens or anyone else, but I haven't heard that happening much to begin with. Drag queens reading stories to kids seems fine to me.

1. That's the right way to put it, and yes, those perverts are going back to their small corner where they belong. They'll have the exact same rights you and I have, and we'll all co-exist marvelously! ;) 

2. Well it's happened. Just google drag queems pole dancing for kids and you'll see for yourself. As far as drag queen story hour, you have to ask why in the f*ck do these people want to be in drag while they read stories to kids? The reason is pretty obvious if your head isn't lodged up the Left's ass. 

Edited by Deluge
  • Like 1
Posted
1 hour ago, Scott75 said:

Been defending these new definitions for a while now. Hopefully you'll notice at some point.

No, you have not. Like most of this discussion though, it has gone on for so long now with your obfuscation, we are left with this yes I have, no you have not crap instead of you actually doing so. 

LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... 

From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."

 

Posted
On 1/8/2025 at 8:02 PM, Nationalist said:
On 1/8/2025 at 1:19 PM, Scott75 said:

My whims have nothing to do with this. I've simply been pointing out that the definition of male and female, when used in the context of gender, has expanded for a great deal of people, and has reached places such as Wikipedia and even the legal system. And yes, I also think this is a good thing. 

And I'm saying I disagree with the whole premise. You will never convince me it's a good idea to blur the line between man and woman.

You don't agree with the fact that many have expanded their -definitions- of man and woman. Most people are biologically one or the other, but the new gender definitions of the terms allow anyone to identify with the gender they believe they are. Don't get me wrong, I can certainly see how this could go too far, such as someone switching between one and the other too often. However, I think that -not- expanding these definitions, especially to transgender people, can get them to go transexual- that is, to get hormones/hormone blockers and surgery. Generally speaking, I strongly believe that this is done in order to conform more with what a man or a woman is "supposed" to look like. If we'd just let people identify with the gender they wish, I think a lot of this could be avoided.

Posted
On 1/8/2025 at 8:06 PM, Nationalist said:
On 1/8/2025 at 1:24 PM, Scott75 said:

I'm glad that you at least recognize that Wikipedia is posting what I'm quoting. You can ofcourse ignore whatever I say as fantasy, but the Wikipedia posts are a solid sign that this is much larger than me. Even more important is the legal cases that have gone through the court system. As I have acknowledged in the past, what I suppose I could call the gender identity movement hasn't won every court battle, but I think they've been winning more than they've been losing and I see that trend continuing in the future. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how things will go if that trend continues. 

The trend needs to be dismissed.

Why do you believe that?

Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

If we'd just let people identify with the gender they wish, I think a lot of this could be avoided.

I'm inclined to think most people don't care too much about assumed "identities" they care about uncut men in the women's change room...  two totally different things.

In all but 0.3% of cases, humans of average intelligence should be able to check between their legs and choose the right door. 

But never mind all that, we'lll get no where with it anyway... my real question is simple enough: if an uncut man can identify as a woman, why can't a retired 67 year old man be able to identify as 19 years old and rejoin the same military he was forced out of at compulsory release age (CRA). 

I'd like to rejoin. And before you ask, yes, I can easily pass the dumbed down fitness test many currently serving twenty somethings are having problems with.

I'll even do the current SOR fitness test for ya,if I pass that can I be 19 again?

Dear Santa: Direct entry as a JTAC would be just fine...

 

Edited by Venandi
Posted
On 1/8/2025 at 9:14 PM, User said:
On 1/8/2025 at 9:08 PM, Scott75 said:

I strongly suspect that it's attitudes like yours that are one of the causes of traumas like the one User posted way back in post #627. Here's the video he posted:

Try watching the video next time.

I watched it the first time. 

On 1/8/2025 at 9:14 PM, User said:

She certainly wasn't blaming people like us... it was people like you who are pushing this madness onto children who are the problem.

No, I've -never- pushed for so called gender affirming care, and as I've mentioned in this thread, like Chloe Cole, I don't currently think that minors should even have the option to do it. I decided it would be good to transcribe what she said to discern her most important points. First, the transcription:

**

My name is Chloe Cole and I'm a de transitioner. Another way to put that would be I used to believe that I was born in the wrong body and the adults in my life whom I trusted affirmed my belief and this caused me lifelong irreversible harm. I speak to you today as a victim of one of the biggest medical scandals in the history of the United States of America. I speak to you in the hope that you will have the courage to bring this scandal to an end and ensure that other vulnerable teenagers, children and young adults don't go through what I went through.

At the age of 12, I began to experience what my medical team would later diagnose as gender dysphoria. I was well into an early puberty and I was very uncomfortable with the changes that were happening to my body. I was intimidated by male attention, and when I told my parents that I felt like a boy, in retrospect, all I meant was that I hated puberty, that I wanted this newfound sexual attention to go away, that I looked up to my brothers a little bit more than I did to my sisters. I came out as transgender in a letter I sent on the dining room table.

My parents were immediately concerned. They felt like they needed to get outside help from medical professionals, but this proved to be a mistake. It immediately set our entire family down a path of ideologically motivated deceit and coercion. The gender specialist I was taken to see told my parents that I need to be put on puberty blocking drugs right away.

They asked my parents a simple question: would you rather have a dead daughter or a living transgender son. The choice was enough for my parents to let their guard down, and in retrospect I can't blame them. This is the moment that we all became victims of so-called gender affirming care. I was fast tracked onto puberty blockers and then testosterone. The resulting menopausal like hot flashes made focusing on school impossible. I still get joint pains and weird pops in my back, but they were far worse when I was on the blockers.

A month later when I was 13, I had my first testosterone injection. It's caused permanent changes to my body my voice will forever be deeper my jawline sharper my nose longer my bone structure permanently masculinized my adam's apple more prominent. My fertility unknown. I look in the mirror sometimes and I feel like a monster.

I had a double mastectomy at 15. They tested my amputated breasts for cancer. I was cancer-free of course. I was perfectly healthy. There was nothing wrong with my still developing body or my breasts, other than that as an insecure teenage girl, I felt awkward about it. After my breasts were taken away from me, the tissue was incinerated. Before I was able to legally drive I had a huge part of my future womanhood taken from me.

I will never be able to breastfeed. I struggled to look at myself in the mirror at times. I still struggle to this day with sexual dysfunction, and I have massive scars across my chest. And the skin grafts that they use that they took of my nipples are weeping fluid today and they were grafted into a more masculine positioning they said. After surgery, my grades in school plummeted.

Everything that I went through did nothing to address my underlying mental health issues that I had and my doctors with their theories on gender thought that all my problems would go away as soon as I was surgically transformed into something that vaguely resembled a boy. Their theories were wrong. The drugs and surgeries changed my body but they did not and could not change the basic reality that I am and forever will be a female. When my specialist first told my parents that they could have a dead daughter or a live transgender son I wasn't suicidal. I was a happy child who struggled because she was different. However, at 16, after my surgery I did become suicidal. I'm doing better now, but my parents almost got the dead daughter promised to them by my doctors. My doctors had almost created the very nightmare they said they were trying to avoid.

So what message do I want to bring to American teenagers and their families? I didn't need to be lied to. I needed compassion. I needed to be loved. I needed to be given therapy to help me work through my issues, not affirm to my delusion that by transforming into a boy, it would solve all my problems. We need to stop telling 12 year olds that they were born wrong, that they are right to reject their own bodies and feel uncomfortable with their own skin. We need to stop telling children that puberty is an option. That they can choose what kind of puberty they will go through just as they can choose what clothes to wear or what music to listen to.

Puberty is a rite of passage to adulthood, not a disease to be mitigated. Today, I should be at home with my family celebrating my 19th birthday and instead I'm making a desperate plea to my elected my elected representatives: learn the lessons from other medical scandals like the opioid crisis to recognize that doctors are human too and sometimes they are wrong.

My childhood was ruined, along with thousands of de-transitioners that I know through our networks. This needs to stop. You alone can stop it. Enough children have already been victimized by this barbaric pseudoscience. Please let me be your final warning. Thank you.

**

 

Next, the summary:

**

Chloe Cole, a de-transitioner was put on puberty blockers and testosterone at a young age, and underwent a double mastectomy at 15, despite being perfectly healthy. Chloe expresses regret over the irreversible changes to her body and the negative impact on her mental health, including suicidal thoughts. She argues that she was failed by the medical system, which affirmed her belief that she was born in the wrong body instead of providing her with compassion and therapy to address her underlying issues. Chloe is now making a plea to elected representatives to learn from this medical scandal and stop the practice of "gender-affirming care" for vulnerable children and teenagers.

**

Another point is that Chloe's parents were presented with a false choice as to  whether they would rather have a dead daughter or a living transgender son. This choice was used to pressure them into agreeing to put Chloe on puberty blockers and later testosterone.

Now, do you notice that Chloe never mentions anything on the debate of gender identity? Her entire focus is on transitioning hormone blockers, testosterone and body modification surgery. 

Posted
40 minutes ago, Venandi said:
58 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

If we'd just let people identify with the gender they wish, I think a lot of this could be avoided.

I'm inclined to think most people don't care too much about assumed "identities" they care about uncut men in the women's change room...  two totally different things.

In all but 0.3% of cases, humans of average intelligence should be able to check between their legs and choose the right door. 

But never mind all that, we'lll get no where with it anyway... my real question is simple enough: if an uncut man can identify as a woman, why can't a retired 67 year old man be able to identify as 19 years old and rejoin the same military he was forced out of at compulsory release age (CRA). 

I'd like to rejoin. And before you ask, yes, I can easily pass the dumbed down fitness test many currently serving twenty somethings are having problems with.

I'll even do the current SOR fitness test for ya,if I pass that can I be 19 again?

Dear Santa: Direct entry as a JTAC would be just fine...

Lol :-). I think in a way,  you're making my deeper point for me. If you're fit enough to do a given military job, why should your age be the deciding factor? Similarly, if a woman was fit enough to be in a combat military role, why should her gender be a factor? I think the main problem when it comes to this whole "Are you a man or a woman" debate is that we're focusing on the wrong thing, that is, we're focusing on a person's biological sex, instead of their capabilities.

As to the washroom concern, as I've said before, I think the solution is to have more gender neutral washrooms. This whole debate reminds me of the whole "colored" vs. "white" washrooms. Just have a bunch of closed off stalls like women's washrooms already have and then man, woman and non binaries can all use the same washroom. They already exist and I think they're the best solution to the problem:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet

Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

Lol :-). I think in a way,  you're making my deeper point for me.

Cool.

As soon as I'm 19 again we have a deal. As far as I'm concerned, there was an awful lot of young women leading the trans rights charge and they got exactly what they said they thought they might maybe want... and no longer do. Throwing them under the bus they built seems fair enough to me. In fact, I'd suggest that in biological terms, my ask is pretty small in comparison.

As it stands now I'm more than happy to welcome hard body women who identify as gay men into the gym change room... how's that for inclusive eh?

Where are they BTW... I'm headed there right now. Got to get ready for that fitness test. 

Edited by Venandi
Posted
24 minutes ago, Venandi said:

Cool.

As soon as I'm 19 again we have a deal.

Lol :-p. I suspect you may not have read my whole post though.I think what I said after the sentence you quoted is pretty important. To whit:

**

If you're fit enough to do a given military job, why should your age be the deciding factor? Similarly, if a woman was fit enough to be in a combat military role, why should her gender be a factor? I think the main problem when it comes to this whole "Are you a man or a woman" debate is that we're focusing on the wrong thing, that is, we're focusing on a person's biological sex, instead of their capabilities.

**

 

26 minutes ago, Venandi said:

As far as I'm concerned, there was an awful lot of young women leading the trans rights charge and they got exactly what they said they thought they might maybe want... and no longer do. Throwing them under the bus they built seems fair enough to me.

I'm going to guess you're referring to allowing trans women into women's washrooms? The irony is that, unlike men's washrooms, women's stalls are all closed door. No one will be seeing anything in there anyway. If we made all stalls like that, we could just have unisex washrooms and do away with such tedious questions as to who should use what washroom.

37 minutes ago, Scott75 said:
29 minutes ago, Venandi said:

As it stands now I'm more than happy to welcome hard body women who identify as gay men into the gym change room... how's that for inclusive eh?

Very forward thinking of you :-).

Posted
2 hours ago, Scott75 said:

You don't agree with the fact that many have expanded their -definitions- of man and woman. 

Well yes they have.

Now it's womanly women and manly man. The rest have tailored nether regions.

  • Haha 1
Posted
On 1/9/2025 at 8:23 AM, Deluge said:
On 1/8/2025 at 9:08 PM, Scott75 said:

I strongly suspect that it's attitudes like yours that are one of the causes of traumas like the one User posted way back in post #627. Here's the video he posted:

That video supports my argument, not yours. She's talking about the damage you cultists cause when you try to talk kids into the opposite sex. 

I've -always- had reservations about minors getting hormones/hormone blockers and trans surgery. At this point, I've come to agree with people like Chloe (in the video) that minors simply shouldn't have this done at all. This viewpoint isn't set in stone, but I think she makes some -very- good points.

I also think that even many adults may be making the wrong decision to get trans surgery, though I do support their right to choose to do so if they want to.

But my -most- important point is, what is driving people to get trans surgery to begin with, regardless of age. Chloe said something in her speech that I think is important- that she looked up more to her brothers than her sisters. I think we can agree that biological men and biological women both have some traits that simply can't be compared. Without both, our species would literally die out. 

Posted
1 hour ago, Scott75 said:

I've -always- had reservations about minors getting hormones/hormone blockers and trans surgery. At this point, I've come to agree with people like Chloe (in the video) that minors simply shouldn't have this done at all. This viewpoint isn't set in stone, but I think she makes some -very- good points.

I also think that even many adults may be making the wrong decision to get trans surgery, though I do support their right to choose to do so if they want to.

But my -most- important point is, what is driving people to get trans surgery to begin with, regardless of age. Chloe said something in her speech that I think is important- that she looked up more to her brothers than her sisters. I think we can agree that biological men and biological women both have some traits that simply can't be compared. Without both, our species would literally die out. 

What the f*ck are you talking about? Denying the trans agenda is not going to kill our species. 

Those f*ckers really have their hooks in you, don't they. lol

Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Scott75 said:

Lol :-p. I suspect you may not have read my whole post though.I think what I said after the sentence you quoted is pretty important. To whit:

I did read it... that's why I said:

3 hours ago, Venandi said:

As soon as I'm 19 again we have a deal.

My concern here was never for myself... none of this hurts me a bit and those hard body chicks who think they're gay men are welcome to shower with me anytime. Aggressive males who identify as women are welcome too, I enjoy that kind of interaction. So, when I say none of this hurts me I'm really not kidding.

My concern was always for your mother, sister, daughter (etc) in the shower room, or your aunt who's in prison, young women competing in sports, college girls looking for scholarships.... you get the idea right?

You may have noticed that people here are pretty rude, I see a lot of that across the board now too... and so be it. My concern for them and their's is at an all time low now because of it and I'm ready to kick Robo and Herb's female kinfolk under the bus... so ya, I'll take the deal.

As soon as age is included in this madness and I'm 19 again you get my vote. Sound fair?

I'm starting to think that fighting absurdity with absurdity is the only option here and it can be applied to a host of topical issues. As long as Herb and Robo are happy to have their houses surrounded by tinder dry brush piles I'm happy to cut back on fire crew manning and aerial application crew certification training.

Edited by Venandi
Posted
3 hours ago, Scott75 said:

I watched it the first time. 

Not based on your trying to say she was talking to us you didn't. 

3 hours ago, Scott75 said:

No, I've -never- pushed for so called gender affirming care, and as I've mentioned in this thread, like Chloe Cole, I don't currently think that minors should even have the option to do it.

But... you do think minors should be told that boys can be girls and all it takes for a girl to be a boy or vice versa is for them to say they are.

So, you are just fine with gender affirming care, pushing this onto kids, but then when you have convinced these children they are something they are not, then you will tell them... NOPE! Sorry, no gender transitioning for you!

Gender affirming care is more than surgery and drugs, it is the teachers calling little Johnny Jill and then telling little Johnny that yes he is a little girl named Jill and "affirming" that. 

You are trying to have it both ways, unlike many other leftists, you are at least honest enough to say kids should not be butchered, but you are not being intellectually honest enough to deal with the contradictions you are peddling here. 

 

LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... 

From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."

 

Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, User said:

So, you are just fine with gender affirming care,

Maybe we've been going about this all wrong...

Maybe the best way to thwart madness is to agree and encourage it under the guise that radical surgical procedures are preventing these creatures from breeding and that's a net benefit to society. 

They'll become so offended they'll decide THEY want it stopped just to spite the MAGA hyenas who now favour the idea.

Edited by Venandi
  • Haha 2
Posted
1 hour ago, User said:

But... you do think minors should be told that boys can be girls and all it takes for a girl to be a boy or vice versa is for them to say they are.

So, you are just fine with gender affirming care, pushing this onto kids, but then when you have convinced these children they are something they are not, then you will tell them... NOPE! Sorry, no gender transitioning for you!

Gender affirming care is more than surgery and drugs, it is the teachers calling little Johnny Jill and then telling little Johnny that yes he is a little girl named Jill and "affirming" that. 

 

The major problem with your position is that you (incorrectly) believe that adults are pushing unsuspecting kids into choices that would not have occurred to them. Research shows that transgender persons have felt that way "forever."

I'm not sure why you would think parents are involved in some sort of conspiracy against their children. 

That just does not fit the facts.

Posted

When it comes to biological sex, labels are meaningless, since development is a complicated process that results in more than a simple binary. That’s not the reality.

Consider humans born with CAIS (complete androgen insensitivity). Their chromosomes are XY (male), they produce male levels of testosterone, have undescended testes, produce sperm, and do not develop a uterus, but they do not respond to testosterone so they develop otherwise along the female body plan. They have vaginas, a complete (and often even more so than average) suite of female secondary sexual characteristics, and typical female neurological development.

So, they have male genetics, hormones, and gametes, but female genitalia, body and brain. So – are they male or female? Do some men have vaginas, or do some women have XY chromosomes? 

A Discussion of Biological Sex

  • Like 1
Posted
43 minutes ago, Venandi said:

Should children who identify with the latter group due to Body Integrity dysmorphia be allowed to have fingers amputated? 

There's no equivalence. What you have presented is a fallacy.

Posted
1 hour ago, Radiorum said:

When it comes to biological sex, labels are meaningless, since development is a complicated process that results in more than a simple binary. That’s not the reality.

 

Biologically it is absolutely a binary. One sex carries the egg, the other sex carries the sperm. When it comes to mammals that's basically it. There are some minor details around it but when you look at the definition that's what it is.

Which is a problem for your side because you want to pretend something. You want to pretend that mail is the same as female if the male feels that he is female.

But at the end of the day they're male and there is no complicated conversation necessary.

There are also only two genders, and everybody exists on a spectrum between them. It can be argued that the spectrum includes more than one line so to speak, a person may be more masculine or feminine in one element of their life and more feminine and less masculine in another element of their life but they are all just on a spectrum between male and female.

Sorry for the inconvenience. But that is a simple truth. Everything else is an attempt to obfuscate that truth for a political agenda and to try and make a mental health issue somehow legitimate.

  • Like 1
Posted
2 hours ago, Radiorum said:

 

The major problem with your position is that you (incorrectly) believe that adults are pushing unsuspecting kids into choices that would not have occurred to them. Research shows that transgender persons have felt that way "forever."

I'm not sure why you would think parents are involved in some sort of conspiracy against their children. 

That just does not fit the facts.

The major problem with your position is that you don't seem to follow this issue very closely at all. 

Parents and teachers are in fact pushing this onto children. There are numerous examples of messy divorces where fathers have to watch their children taken from them while the mother insists their elementary age child is in fact a girl when they are a boy, putting them in dresses, and the fathers saying their child has never expressed any such sentiment. 

And... in the example provided here, with the detransitioner, these kids testify they are just kids, confused, or suffering from shame over their bodies and how they are changing... and then folks like you come along and insist they must have their gender "affirmed" or they will die!

So, the only real question is if you are just ignorant of these things or just dishonestly pushing this knowing better. 

LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... 

From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."

 

Posted
1 hour ago, Radiorum said:

There's no equivalence. What you have presented is a fallacy.

LOL. 

So, a male thinks they are a female, and we must affirm that and support their "transition," but if they feel like they shouldn't have a leg... now you balk and claim that is totally different!

It is only different because you don't want to face the uncomfortable reality of the absurdity you are here arguing. 

LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... 

From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."

 

Posted
2 hours ago, Radiorum said:

When it comes to biological sex, labels are meaningless, since development is a complicated process that results in more than a simple binary. That’s not the reality.

Consider humans born with CAIS (complete androgen insensitivity). Their chromosomes are XY (male), they produce male levels of testosterone, have undescended testes, produce sperm, and do not develop a uterus, but they do not respond to testosterone so they develop otherwise along the female body plan. They have vaginas, a complete (and often even more so than average) suite of female secondary sexual characteristics, and typical female neurological development.

So, they have male genetics, hormones, and gametes, but female genitalia, body and brain. So – are they male or female? Do some men have vaginas, or do some women have XY chromosomes? 

A Discussion of Biological Sex

That is a condition... not normal. Humans are born male or female. 

 

LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... 

From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."

 

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Radiorum said:

There's no equivalence. What you have presented is a fallacy.

"Body Integrity Dysmorphia" is every bit as real and every bit as traumatic to the person afflicted as the "Gender Dysmorphia" you're currently championing. It's a similar Dysmorphia condition just with different body parts.

Your stance on the issue offers no recourse other than deeming it a fallacy or facing the absurdity of your own position. IMO you'd be better off labeling it a mental disorder requiring intervention and treatment.  But then (gasp), you know I'd agree with you... right?

If I were in your shoes I'd say the same thing and hope it got ignored too.

Edited by Venandi
  • Like 1
Posted
1 hour ago, User said:

Parents and teachers are in fact pushing this onto children. There are numerous examples of messy divorces where fathers have to watch their children taken from them while the mother insists their elementary age child is in fact a girl when they are a boy, putting them in dresses, and the fathers saying their child has never expressed any such sentiment. 

And... in the example provided here, with the detransitioner, these kids testify they are just kids, confused, or suffering from shame over their bodies and how they are changing... and then folks like you come along and insist they must have their gender "affirmed" or they will die!

 

Your allegation (offered without evidence) does not represent the biggest threat to transgender persons.

Stigma, prejudice, and discrimination related to being transgender in these youth’s environments is a much bigger threat, as well as inconsistent support from families and the community. These are the main contributors to any mental distress transgenders experience.

In fact:

Our findings reveal substantial mental health disparities for Canadian transgender youth when data are compared to age-equivalent large-scale population surveys. Compared to the BCAHS, we found same-aged transgender youth faced significant health disparities across all measures, with exceptionally high effect sizes. Transgender 14–18 year olds had 5 times the risk of suicidal thoughts, with almost two-thirds having seriously considered suicide in the past year. Three-quarters of 14–18 year olds reported self-harming in the past year, compared to fewer than one in five students in the BCAHS. Results were similarly concerning when comparing data for 19 to 25 year old TYHS participants to the general population in the CCHS. In terms of risk ratios, transgender 19–25 year olds had almost 8 times the risk of serious suicidal thoughts in the past year than the equivalent aged Canadian population, and over 16 times the risk of a suicide attempt in the past year.

 

Stats show only a very small percentage ever detransition. In the US, the majority that do, did so only temporarily, and cite societal, financial or family pressures as the reason.

So, when someone tells you who they are, believe them.

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