The new dark Axis is rising and the West cannot affort indecisiveness and complacency

[myata]

That could very well lead to the worst outcomes that could be really bad in this age where the tyrants have discovered and are honing the skill of total control and ruling indefinitely.

If China would come more openly or semi-openly on the side of Russia's brutal aggression, that would signify a decisive move to toward a new world without rules or laws. Twisty words would add nothing to the picture. In that case, West couldn't hesitate to act.

1. Draw a decisive line in Ukraine by accepting it to NATO (along the current line of separation). Now the Axis wouldn't go into an open confrontation with the West. Ten years, two decades on, working its duplicitous way in the world, who could tell?

2. Immediately, impose total economic isolation on all participants of the aggressive Axis.

3. Also with urgency, begin building the global alliance of democracies, including defense alliance.

This should be looked at now. The world where the Axis grows in the power and influence, recruiting or converting to its side more an more states does not have a good exit - not only for the West, but for the humanity. This time is not for a weakness and indecision.

[Nationalist]

55 minutes ago, myata said:

That could very well lead to the worst outcomes that could be really bad in this age where the tyrants have discovered and are honing the skill of total control and ruling indefinitely.

If China would come more openly or semi-openly on the side of Russia's brutal aggression, that would signify a decisive move to toward a new world without rules or laws. Twisty words would add nothing to the picture. In that case, West couldn't hesitate to act.

1. Draw a decisive line in Ukraine by accepting it to NATO (along the current line of separation). Now the Axis wouldn't go into an open confrontation with the West. Ten years, two decades on, working its duplicitous way in the world, who could tell?

2. Immediately, impose total economic isolation on all participants of the aggressive Axis.

3. Also with urgency, begin building the global alliance of democracies, including defense alliance.

This should be looked at now. The world where the Axis grows in the power and influence, recruiting or converting to its side more an more states does not have a good exit - not only for the West, but for the humanity. This time is not for a weakness and indecision.

Hmmm...gee it sure is a good thing Clinton brought China into the WTO...isn't it?

[ironstone]

2 hours ago, myata said:

This time is not for a weakness and indecision.

I agree. Weakness and indecision could lead to Russia invading another country. It could lead to Ching flexing it's muscle and threatening Taiwan more than ever. It could lead to a resurgence in militant Islam in the Middle East.

Oh wait, that's already happening right now, for the last few years.

[myata]

25 minutes ago, ironstone said:

Oh wait, that's already happening right now, for the last few years.

And with paralysis of will and act, it will keep happening more and more. Why wouldn't it? Dictators, tyrants thugs scum of the world are enticed and attracted by weakness. What's worse, folks around the world those who vote against them now will begin getting the wind where the things are going. This is simply not the time to sit on the butt and wait to see how it would play out.

[CITIZEN_2015]

The dark axis or axis of evil is not new. It is Russia, China, Iran and North Korea. I hope all four regimes will be destroyed ASAP. Regan where are you?

[ironstone]

1 minute ago, myata said:

And with paralysis of will and act, it will keep happening more and more. Why wouldn't it? Dictators, tyrants thugs scum of the world are enticed and attracted by weakness. What's worse, folks around the world those who vote against them now will begin getting the wind where the things are going. This is simply not the time to sit on the butt and wait to see how it would play out.

The US has long been considered to be the leader of the free world so I think it's perfectly legitimate to point out that these dictators you speak of have been greatly emboldened under the watch of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

Trump had flaws just as every other president did, but those same dictators behaved much better during his time in office.

[Dougie93]

2 hours ago, myata said:

 The world where the Axis grows in the power and influence, recruiting or converting to its side more an more states

this idea dates back to the Cold War, when it was called the Domino Theory

which was however proven false when Nixon went to China, isolating the Soviets therein

[myata]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

which was however proven false when Nixon went to China, isolating the Soviets therein

It's such a naive idea that one episode in the past could give any assurances for the future. Xi and Putin share a lot more (and still more going forward) in interests than with the West. Rely on "talking"?

1 hour ago, ironstone said:

Trump had flaws just as every other president did, but those same dictators behaved much better during his time in office.

I have to disagree here. Trump had a full term in the office and he did nothing to stop Putin, engineered chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan and now talking openly about giving Putin what he wants. You've got to look at the reality, not just words.

[Dougie93]

47 minutes ago, myata said:

It's such a naive idea that one episode in the past could give any assurances for the future. Xi and Putin share a lot more (and still more going forward) in interests than with the West. Rely on "talking"?

the Domino Theory has already been exposed as being ultimate naivete during the Cold War

the dynamic between Beijing & Moscow has not changed

in that, they are not allies, but rather adversaries

furthermore, the trend is not even in the direction of the Dominoes falling in the face of this supposed "Axis"

quite the opposite, as both Russia and China are increasingly surrounded by sworn enemies

and there is no sign whatsoever that states are siding with China and / or Russia, far from it

China;s only proxy in the Pacific is North Korea, tho Pyongyang is anything but reliable

Russia's only proxy in Europe is Belarus, which is hardly a boon to the Kremlin

otherwise, both China & Russia are facing increasing opposition across the board

for China, particularly in India, Vietnam, the Philippines, Japan & South Korea

for Russia, particularly in Ukraine,  Poland, Roumania, Turkey & Scandinavia

if there is a Domino Effect in play, it is actually working against the expansion of Russia & China

if anything, Chinese & Russian aggression is increasingly isolating both regimes

with the vast majority of states fleeing to the protection of America therein

case in point, the Domino Theory incited the Vietnam War

yet now the Communist regime in Vietnam sides with America against the Chinese

in Europe, Sweden & Finland have joined NATO

which again, is the Dominoes falling against the Russians not for them

the Russians & Chinese both retrenching into totalitarian cult of the personality dictatorships

is backfiring against both regimes exponentially by default

rendering America into an even more dominant position than was the case before

Sua Sponte

Edited September 29, 2024 by Dougie93

[myata]

56 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the Domino Theory has already been exposed as being ultimate naivete during the Cold War

When was the past a guarantee of the future? Ask the dinosaurs, Rome or etc, yada.

 

57 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the dynamic between Beijing & Moscow has not changed

in that, they are not allies, but rather adversaries

Not true: the time has changes and you're quoting something that isn't there. Russia exposed itself as unable to be a world-level player on par with China. Then, it's dependent on China, and China needs it as a resource pool and a proxy directly influencing NATO.

59 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Russia's only proxy in Europe is Belarus, which is hardly a boon to the Kremlin

You're conveniently forgetting Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, Syria and a couple of African juntas. And only a few years back the hope that Africa has moved on from the coups was widespread. So it's working on the world already. And not seeing it point blank would be what? Naivety? Wishful thinking? Complacency?

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

if there is a Domino Effect in play, it is actually working against the expansion of Russia & China

if anything, Chinese & Russian aggression is increasingly isolating both regimes

with the vast majority of states fleeing to the protection of America therein

That would be a pure fantasy, out of a finger. Much of the world is ambivalent toward Russia/China axis vs America-West. China just came up with an alternative plan that doesn't even mention the Charter of the Nations and guess who supported it? Brasil, Hungary and Switzerland.

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

which again, is the Dominoes falling against the Russians not for them

the Russians & Chinese both retrenching into totalitarian cult of the personality dictatorships

This on the other hand, can be true but it's driving them toward each other. Syria's Asad stood because he was helped by Iran and Russia. Now Iran and North Korea supplies to Russia critical munitions with China hanging in the shades. Three years of persuasion did not move China any closer to a position based on the international law rather than word-dancing. It hasn't crossed the line yet, but didn't step back from it either.

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

rendering America into an even more dominant position than was the case before

That could have been the case if it stood by and on its principles. But we have one of the contenders almost openly siding with a war criminal thug. Who can be certain of anything, in this light? Sure it plays against America. If the world moves to make deals with the Axis it would be very hard to reverse the drive.

[Dougie93]

13 minutes ago, myata said:

When was the past a guarantee of the future? Ask the dinosaurs, Rome or etc, yada.

 

Not true: the time has changes and you're quoting something that isn't there. Russia exposed itself as unable to be a world-level player on par with China. Then, it's dependent on China, and China needs it as a resource pool and a proxy directly influencing NATO.

You're conveniently forgetting Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, Syria and a couple of African juntas. And only a few years back the hope that Africa has moved on from the coups was widespread. So it's working on the world already. And not seeing it point blank would be what? Naivety? Wishful thinking? Complacency?

you've not only fallen into the trap of the Domino Theory fallacy of the Cold War

but in addition,  the Communists Are Ten Feet Tall fallacy as well

it's like you are posting from 1954

 

[myata]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

you've not only fallen into the trap of the Domino Theory fallacy of the Cold War

This is nothing to do with me, but you're stuck in cliches of the past and coined dogmas. I haven't said a word about "domino". But for eight decades after WWII world thought it was building a future based on the law and certain principles: go no further than the Charter of UN. Or it thought that's what it was doing.

Now Putin decided to challenge it, in your face blatantly. And look. China proposes a "plan" that doesn't even mention the law (Charter). Just give the thug what it asks for and negotiate to death. That's what it wants great solemn words in one place and the reality, very different or starkly opposite. Three African juntas where there were none, hostile to West. Brazil and India ambivalent. This is the reality. You want to play those tunes in the echo chamber by all means. But don't tell that it's got anything to do with me, or the reality for that matter.

[Dougie93]

34 minutes ago, myata said:

This is nothing to do with me, but you're stuck in cliches of the past and coined dogmas. I haven't said a word about "domino". But for eight decades after WWII world thought it was building a future based on the law and certain principles: go no further than the Charter of UN. Or it thought that's what it was doing.

Now Putin decided to challenge it, in your face blatantly. And look. China proposes a "plan" that doesn't even mention the law (Charter). Just give the thug what it asks for and negotiate to death. That's what it wants great solemn words in one place and the reality, very different or starkly opposite. Three African juntas where there were none, hostile to West. Brazil and India ambivalent. This is the reality. You want to play those tunes in the echo chamber by all means. But don't tell that it's got anything to do with me, or the reality for that matter.

well I seriously doubt that the vast majority of Canadians are willing to follow you into an all out war

against the Chinese and / or Russians

but rest assured that I am willing to turn that key,  on hair trigger alert

bring it on, like the Biblical flood of the Old Testament

Judgment Day

 

[myata]

30 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

are willing to follow you into an all out war

against the Chinese and / or Russians

OK at this point it'll have to be one of: a) d*mp b) ill*terate c) l*ing. Sail on.

[ironstone]

7 hours ago, myata said:

I have to disagree here. Trump had a full term in the office and he did nothing to stop Putin, engineered chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan and now talking openly about giving Putin what he wants. You've got to look at the reality, not just words.

George W. Bush-Putin attacked Georgia. Barrack Obama-Putin targets Crimea. Joe Biden-Putin attacks Ukraine.

There is a huge gap in that timeline. When Trump was in office, Putin did very little.

That in itself is significant, leaving out China and what a greatly emboldened Iran has been doing since Biden/Harris took over.

[myata]

13 hours ago, ironstone said:

There is a huge gap in that timeline. When Trump was in office, Putin did very little.

First, let's stick to the reality: it's "huge" only in the MAGA magnifying glass. Georgia (2008) to Crimea (2014) can you count perhaps? Secondly, he got all he needed at that time: no threat from the U.S. of any kind and he was quite sure about it (why?). Could deal with other matters like Syria where by the way American presence was weakened seriously thanks to who? And Afghanistan as the cherry, of course.

You can't sell "Trump tough on Vlad" to anyone with a grain of a rational mind. It just doesn't fly anywhere within a few lightyears of the reality.

13 hours ago, ironstone said:

That in itself is significant, leaving out China and what a greatly emboldened Iran

I agree to some extent that liberal West was slow and reluctant dealing (like practically, not just reports and meetings) with these threats. But to paint someone like Trump as a realistic alternative is not only irrational, hardly more than a sad joke. After three years of cautious Joe, the thug isn't talking about NATO anymore, only to get his way in Ukraine. And Trump and his stooges were singing from the start, just give him what he wants and we will have "peace". You have responsibility to your sane, rational mind, not so?

Edited September 30, 2024 by myata

[ironstone]

3 hours ago, myata said:

First, let's stick to the reality: it's "huge" only in the MAGA magnifying glass. Georgia (2008) to Crimea (2014) can you count perhaps? Secondly, he got all he needed at that time: no threat from the U.S. of any kind and he was quite sure about it (why?). Could deal with other matters like Syria where by the way American presence was weakened seriously thanks to who? And Afghanistan as the cherry, of course.

You can't sell "Trump tough on Vlad" to anyone with a grain of a rational mind. It just doesn't fly anywhere within a few lightyears of the reality.

I agree to some extent that liberal West was slow and reluctant dealing (like practically, not just reports and meetings) with these threats. But to paint someone like Trump as a realistic alternative is not only irrational, hardly more than a sad joke. After three years of cautious Joe, the thug isn't talking about NATO anymore, only to get his way in Ukraine. And Trump and his stooges were singing from the start, just give him what he wants and we will have "peace". You have responsibility to your sane, rational mind, not so?

Respectfully disagree. If you want to talk about Trump supposedly giving Putin what he wants, you must also talk about Democrats giving Iran 'what they want' and the repercussions of that strategy.

[myata]

2 minutes ago, ironstone said:

If you want to talk about Trump supposedly giving Putin what he wants, you must also talk about Democrats giving Iran 'what they want' and the repercussions of that strategy.

As well, we can be rational and remain with the reality. It tells us that 1) Trump's closest associates voiced, publicly, something very close to if not identical to Putin's demands: giving him the territory that he occupied and unreasonable and illegal restrictions on the sovereign policies of an independent European nation. In a complete violation the international law and the Charter of United Nations. There's nothing supposed about it, it's a fact.

2) Iran didn't get "what it wanted". It didn't get lifting of the sanctions, for example. It got a deal to allow the inspections of its nuclear facilities. Trump didn't tell you or anybody how he could prevent Iran from obtaining nukes without inspections and short of going to an all-out war.