Military Spending Cuts

[Craig Read]

John Thompson a well know military analyst blew his lid yesterday when he heard that $200 million was being deducted from the military budget.

With good reason.

What is the point of even pretending to have a military ?

Scrap it.

$8 billion per year buys you nothing. Canada is almost last in per capital military spend in the Western world.

We are a laughingstock internationally.

To cover up our weakness we resort to 'soft[headed] power', loving terrorists, embracing despots and crying about Africa, and supporting the Useless Nattering Org.

Please.

Stop with the Charade - scrap the military and fund more Indian managed provinces and jurisdictions and regional subsidies.

[FastNed]

There is something very wrong, very sick with politicians who believe it appropriate to spend a billion dollars on requiring its citizens to register their guns but next to nothing on National Defense.

Take the Maple Leaf off the back of your jackets and hang a sign "Mug me, I'm a victim!"

Who would ever have thought Canada would come to this?

[Hugo]

The spending isn't even particularly smart anyway. What use are diesel patrol submarines in this day and age? Increase the spending and spend it on things that will actually be useful in the age of modern warfare.

[westcoast99]

Craig, I agree.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Gugsy

[Craig Read]

Gugsy, right on. What is alarming is that the military decimation fits in perfectly with the liberal ie. lie-beral post modern view of the world. This is namely;

Security is unimportant.

More directly it means 'Let those American bastards protect us'.

Such an ignorant and Janus faced policy leads to trade, political and philosophical tension with the only country in the world whose citizens can point out Canada on a map of the world.

Without military projection capability Canada is nothing more than a cheese eating cousin of the Europeans and a child of the UNO.

The Brits are 22nd or so on military spend but have the #2 projection capability in the world after the US.

They count for something internationally.

What does Canada believe in ?

Terrorism is not lethal ?

Muslim extremists love us ?

The Maple Leaf is our SDI ?

Or do politicians really believe that gutting the military and spending money on socialism makes us unique ?

[FastNed]

I've no idea what Canadians expect of their Military but then again, I suspect Canadians don't either. But the World today is too damn dangerous not to have a clear view of one objective or another.

It would take many years for the Canadian Military to recover to have a posture significant on the International scene but at the moment, it lacks any coherent focus on what role is expected. That should not continue.

Canada can not continue to wander around with pockets full of cash, dumb and unaware of the World around it. It makes a wonderful target simply waiting for a mugger to target it.

Perhaps the unspoken hang-up is that if National Defense is assigned as its priority, Canada must cooperate and coordinate with America or it will be unable to accomplish that purpose. This may simply be too much for the Liberal Politicians to accept so they allow matters to drift rather than to face hard reality.

[KrustyKidd]

You people are looking for a reason or a rational for the military cuts. Trying to see what the Liberal definition of National Defence in the 21st century is but there isn't one.

I said in another thread that the Liberal party is a form of dictatorship and it is. The 200 million dollars they cut from the military was not based on anything other than the need to buy a vote somewhere. They know they long ago lost the votes of those who would have a strong military. They also know they have wasted money all over the place and it is running out, the pyramid scheme is crumbling. They are in a last minute ditch effort to buy some blind gay guy's terrorist bride a hair dressing salon somewhere to get some minority vote and have milked all the other normal sources. May as well go back to 'ol reliable to get the money they need to prop up their little special interest vote buying scheme. They have to, they know without these little perks they could lose the next election.

[Craig Read]

KK, i agree. Post modern liberalism has NO set of values or coherent philosophy. It is ad hoc, opportunistic and sadly immoral.

War is a natural state of affairs. Unless the hairless monkeys [humans], undergo signficant DNA remodeling conflict is assured.

The issue I have with Canadians is the lack of thinking that goes on in the country for the great majority.

They buy into the Lie-beral nonsense and compassionate socialism and even take pride in it.

This is obnoxious. We need to fight these demagogues and not give up. To do so is to consign Canada to the has-been dust bin of history.

[SirRiff]

oddly enough i agree with craig and hugo.

either we have a functinal military or we dont.

if we do, it needs to be technologically comparable to the US, since there is no reason it cant be.

it can never be large enough to sustain a massive ground war like the US though, who exactly would we attack? china? north korea?

so it would have to be technologically based right? small numbers of troops very well trained and very well equiped adn alot of very accurate and deadly support,

but when are we going to use it to justify the cost?

and will the added cost of security justifty the daily sacrifices we would have to make to afford it?

but you know, since smaller nations like canada coud never act alone, doesnt it make sense to put a strong emphasis on regional organizations like Nato, and have each country specialize?

do we even need to plan to have an independant military that coudl sustain a ground war alone? no way. will never happen.

but i feel bad for the hard working military guys and its nothing to be proud of for canadians.

sirRiff

[Black Dog]

Canada is almost last in per capital military spend in the Western world.

And yet we're still the sixth largest spender among NATO countries and the 16th highest world wide. So much for the myth of Canadian inferiority.

We need smarter spending, not more. We need a vision of what we want the CF to be. What we don't need is a bloated military industrial complex like the States',. the only purpose of which is to line the pockets of fat cat investors and their political cronies.

[Kiraly]

Black Dog,

Where did you find Canada ranked sixth.

I'm just curious because I couldn't find many lists.

I did find one on the SIPRI site, which has Canada ranked eight out of nineteen on expenditures on military personnel and equipment.

The U.S.

France

United Kingdom

Germany

Italy

Turkey

Spain

Canada

Considering the size of the rest of the countries, Canada's rank does not indicate lavish spending. Greece spends almost as much as Canada does.

As for smarter spending...

...always...

...and in every ministry.

[Lost in Manitoba]

Whats the population of Greece?

[Kiraly]

Greece has just over 10,000,000 inhabitants, who on the average, make much less than the average Canadian...

...Canadian per capita GDP is almost $10,000 higher than that of Greece.

[KrustyKidd]

it can never be large enough to sustain a massive ground war like the US though, who exactly would we attack? china? north korea?

but you know, since smaller nations like canada coud never act alone, doesnt it make sense to put a strong emphasis on regional organizations like Nato, and have each country specialize?

do we even need to plan to have an independant military that coudl sustain a ground war alone? no way. will never happen.

Scenario #1

Islamic radical students overtake our embassy in Indonesia. One Canadian a day is killed until the US leaves Iraq.

Uh, Australia? USA? Nope. Sorry folks, they are all part of APEC same as us. Have to get the US on our side here under "War on Terror." How embarrasing.

Scenario #2

Air Canada airliner is impounded in Peru for not paying back wages to peasants working in a Canadian owned factory. Price tag $40 million.

Pay up.

Scenario #3

Japan decides to hunt whales within our territorial waters. When the boat is impounded it actively seeks out Canadian ships and impounds every one of our boats in and beyond it's territorial waters. US is inactive on this as we both belong to the same Pacific organisation.

Get some diplomats that speak good Japanese and give good head. Crawling on knees is an added atribute for this position too.

Scenario #4

Troops spread thin all over the place and refineries start myseriously blowing up all over Alberta and the Atlantic.

Find a navy that can be everywhere at the same time. Recall soldiers with freshly issued desert uniforms and send them to Wabasca Alberta in December (Winter clothes to follow on next deployment courtesy of US Supply Services.)

Scenario #5

France opens up a full fledged fishing industry in St Pierre. Then decides to make their own 100 mile territorial claim. They station troops and build a military base to get the message across.

Protest to the UN. Annon sends his condemnation and by the time it gets sorted out the Grand Banks are empty.

Scenario #6

Canada gets a bad name with some tiny bannana republic and finds it's ships boarded and confiscated crew labelled as spies.

Send a Liberal MP to see if they are mistreated (writes report on the aircraft on the way there. Answer is no evidence.) Go to UN, a year later new dictatorship says old dictatorship was wrong but cannot find ships or crew. Oh well.

Scenario #7

2,000 troops in Afganistan find themselves fighting for their lives as the Afgan government is overtaken by warlords or whatever. No foreigner is safe. They have to be evacuated under fire. Airport unusable for fixed wing aircraft and other countries are too busy pulling their own out to help ours. Heavy reinforcements are needed immediately otherwise it will be a bloodbath.

Parliament is a bee hive of activity as the candles burn the midnight oil. Who will choose the panel on the inquires?.

Who will study the need to study the need for a study on what happened and why there was no helecopters to evacuate the soldiers?

Scenario #8

Terrorists infiltrate and mass on the border in Canada. Crossing pell mell to strike America they manage to simutaniously attack a school in Buffalo, Detroit, Syracuse, Albany, Chicago and kill over 700 children. They have all come from Canada. America, pissed says shut them down or we will come and do it. Nonplussed Cretien says he has everything under control. LOL he doesn't even talk the talk and stays on his vacation in BC. Two days later fifty thousand US troops cross various border points to enforce the war on terrorism. Now we have a foreign uninvited power ruling our streets. Civilians are outraged and fight a bit. But the US flag is flying over every armored carrier. The military is gone overseas, the RCMP are no match and we look so cool in the world's eyes. Flacid but Liberal.

Cretien goes to the UN and gives Annon a manual while he speaks the oral telling him how he knew everything was under control and if the Americans had waited he would have arrested every one of those "radicaly persecuted unshaven gentlemen" but Bush over reacted.

Scenario #9

Quebec begins talks with Washington. Washington says niether ya nor nay. New York, Vermont and some other states say an enthusiastic, yet unofficial YA! Quebec says see ya. Ottawa says no. Quebec says bye and goes somewhat fiscally messily but goes nonetheless. Quebec becomes the newest country in the world with a blue fleur de lis within a red star whith blue and red stripes as it's flag. Washington officially disproves yet let's it be known it has troops ready to defend her. Any action by Ottawa and the five remaining soldiers and seventy generals is met by a 100:1 military response.

?????

Scenario #10

Dictators, despots, radicals, terrorist, opportunistic 1st world countries see what a good door mat we are and shove and jostle us every way they can. A threat over fishing rights gets a vote at the UN on a loan, landing rights gets a bag of wheat, an imprisoned Canadian gets trade concessions. Soon no miitary = no say in what happens. But we are nuetral.

My, they learn so so fast. And nuetrality, a broker for peace. A world shaker just like the Swiss. Our vision for Canada, to be Swiss.

Kuckoo

Kuckoo

An army in this day and age? Haw! Only need a couple guys with a ray gun and a laptop to write reports. This is the 21st century man! Catch the wave, Daddy O. Papa Annon takes care of all.

[Craig Read]

That is pretty good. Scenario building. As i told some friends the Chicago fire department could conquer Canada.

Black Dog is spouting as usual Lie-beral nonsense on military ranking. Military spend must be calculated as a % of GDP - in that case within NATO Canada is 2nd last. IN terms of U$ billion spent, Canada spends more than Greece, but less in terms of % of GDP [Greece spends about 3 % vs. Canada's 2 %].

Here are the real #'s:[economist world in figures 2003]

GDP per head rank; Canada 20th at $22,370

US is at $34,940.

GDP per PPP; Canada 7th US is #2.

Selected Countries Military Budget [cdi.org March 2003]

($Billions)

United States 399.1

Russia* 65.0

China* 47.0

Japan 42.6

United Kingdom 38.4

France 29.5

Germany 24.9

Saudi Arabia 21.3

Italy 19.4

India 15.6

South Korea 14.1

Brazil* 10.7

Taiwan* 10.7

Israel 10.6

Spain 8.4

Australia 7.6

Canada 7.6

Netherlands 6.6

Turkey 5.8

Mexico 5.9

Kuwait* 3.9

Ukraine 5.0

Iran* 4.8

Singapore 4.8

Sweden 4.5

Egypt* 4.4

Norway 3.8

Greece 3.5

Poland 3.5

Argentina* 3.3

Canada with 2x the population of Australia spends the same. Canada with 2x the population of the Netherlands spends a little more. Canada with 6 x the population of Singapore spends just 60 % more.

Military power is waning in Canada. In the post modern rush to buy votes and hug trees and cry, Canada has been deserted by its politicians and bleeding heart Lie-beral citizens.

[Lost in Manitoba]

OK. I'm in support of a strong millitary but not for traditional reasons. I strongly believe in National Defense but after that our primary goal should be peacekeeping/humanitarian missions. Greece has a different geographic location that makes them be more aware of the need national defense. The scenarios above are for international law and its enforcement. If a ship with sailors are taken hostage by some country, do you think we should just start launching missles until we get them back? Thats insanity and part of the cycle of violence that we seem to be trapped in.

[KrustyKidd]

Lost, the answer is not to launch missiles or storm aircraft on foreign runways. It is prevention through having a military with world reach to counter problems before they start. Having a mobile strong military would counter every one of those scenarios without firing a shot. Seen any South American countries try to take over the Falklands lately? Nope, I think the point was proved in the 80s. Don't mess with Britain unless you got something on the go and a prize worth fighting for.

My point was simple, I have no idea what prize an opportunistic country may find worth engaging in a conflict with us but rest assured, if they can avoid entanglement with a third party whatever we have is theirs because we cannot hold it against any weak Korean War era military on the planet.

[FastNed]

While the traditional defenses of Canada are next to non-existent, in the Princess Pat's you have the basis for a force equivalent to Delta, GSG-9 or SAS units. They are at the tail end of Canadian Military Logistics and are just about reduced to "midnight acquisition" to maintain their effectiveness. Properly equipped and supported, they would be the sharp point of any Canadian effort. Canadians have much to be proud of in their performance in Afghanistan!

But you can not expect a starving man to be greatly effective.

[KrustyKidd]

Ned, I was in the PPCLI as well as 2 CDO and the CAR Recce Platoon. We were and are, one of the (if not the best) light Infantry units in the world, but, a far cry from SAS and Delta. I take it that you meant that we have the expertise across the board to train such a force within our conventional units. I agree. If I misread the intent of your post I appoligise and submit that our Infantry at present with time to train, money to purchase equipment and modes of support (helecopters, high capacity airlift and such) could probably within five years achieve a status close to the aforementioned.

That said, to those who proposed turning our Forces into something like this it isn't as simple as all that. You don't have a military composed of Special Forces (SF) only. Like, you are going to send James Bond to direct traffic during a flood on an Indian reserve? SF need to keep an edge and constant training is required. That means they do not do peacekeeping, aid to the civil power or anything like that. Whoever is SF, write them off as regular army. IOWs, you still need the army. As well, SF are shock troops. They may be utilised to capture enemy or take ground but they do not act as prison guards nor guard airfields as a raison d'etre. They have to regroup and prepare for the next mission.

There is no savings of manpower or money here. You still need the regular troops to engage in all the programes we still have.

[Craig Read]

Well we need immediately a doubling of the budget, and a rethink of how, where, why and what to spend it on.

But this is all moot. Canada will soon follow New Zealand which officially scrapped its Air Farce in 2002. Eventually Canada will have zero military capability. Handing out zoning tickets in Kabul has stretched it to the breaking point, while the Cdn media oooh and ahhhs over 'this most dangerous mission.'

As if invading Iraq was too easy for the Cdn military.

No scrap the military. Stop playing games just make it official. We will send over crossing guards to Baghdad to make sure people don't jay walk.

And of course there will be more money for the CBC and its assinine 'comedy' supporters like Rick Mercer who can go to NY to find out that Americans don't really give a damn about a whiney little country on their northern borders.

Gee I wonder if Jay Leno will come to Toronto and interview ordinary citizens as to who is the Gov of California. Bet you 100 CDN pesos that 50 % or more would not know the answer.

Too busy watching Survivor and American TV i guess.

[FastNed]

Hi KK, you can always be proud of those accomplishments!

From comments I have heard on the combat effectiveness of the Canadians in Afghanistan, with complete understanding that the best of the best were selected to go, those troops need not take a back seat to anyone. There were what, several hundred? With the best of equipment and transitional training, within a year at most Canada could field five or six top squads ready and able to project Canadian Military power anywhere on Earth.

Logistics and transport are a problem but we have long memories down here, in spite of the insults from your current crop of politicians. If a Canadian Plane or Embassy were seized and transport were needed, it would be available. Hell, our guys would be b1tching if they couldn't go along and help!

With this group of politicians and candidly, the anti-American feelings of so many, it is unlikely that Canada will develop a "Joint Defense" policy with America. I believe that to be unfortunate and short-sighted but that is Canada's choice. This being the reality, it is doubtful that Canada will allocate the funds necessary to develop a professional military of any significant size.

Realistically, I not sure that you need one. Excepting a remotely possible but unlikely scenario involving Quebec and France, what Foreign Power is going to threaten you up there? You live in the wrong neighborhood for that because we Americans would not put up with it. That may be hard for some Canadians to swallow but we are too interrelated and too interconnected for us to allow any foreign power to lean on you. You may continue to elect those we consider idiots, but they will be Canadian idiots not foreign ones and some of you have made quite plain their opinion of some of those we elect. Cousins may fight but they close family ranks when outsiders come along.

Let me suggest one approach to military forces: first, a few sharp points, small unit Special Forces ready and able to project Canadian protective powers anywhere needed. Next, a civil defense multi-service National Guard and last, as this appears to be Canada's cup of tea, a Peacekeeping Force of M.P./civil engineer/reconstruction types. This last group really needs a hard look, though, as the UN experience and history is really p1ss poor to date.

[Craig Read]

Canada is a very selective 'partner' of the US.

It free rides off of the US military and drug firms, and selectively promotes free trade with the US as long as domestic vote buying interests are not affected.

Ned you are right, there will be no Continental joint defence initiative.

And the result will be what ? Evenutally the US will tighten its borders with Canada - to stem future threats and current illegal immigration and abuse of the US market. At that point Canada will be caught - will it be willing to face reality and acknoweldge that its pathetic immigration policy, faineant border control system and lack of military muscle are the major factors in continuing friction with the US ?

Or will it fall back on Trudeauian/Chretienesque anti-American dogma and national socialist slander and posturing ?

A strong military is a sign of adult hood. It shows a willingness to play a real meaningful role in today's dangerous world. Canada has so far proven its adolescence.

[FastNed]

To put an immediate point on the problem, this month may see a demonstration of North Korean Nukes as well as an indictor of their success with ICBM technology. They have IRBM's down pat and the unanswered question is their capabilities with longer ranges. Very little of what goes on in NK is in the public domain nor does a media exist which publishes outside of government control so hard data from them is difficult to discover. Other sources seem to hint at a eight or ten year push to attain the ability from China and Russia to launch and place satellites in orbit. The throw weight requirements for this are equally applicable to nuclear missile launch at an intercontinental distance. Canadians may soon discover the need for anti-ballistic missile defenses.

Equally disturbing, dirty little facts are crawling out from rocks all over the world which appear to indicate that the terrorists are close to launch of a genocidal attack on the West, most likely biological. The SARs debacle disclosed that Canada has no effective National Public Health response to incidents of this nature and as the UN functionaries and Shi'ia clerics discovered in Iraq, these fanatics consider everyone and everything fair game. If Canadians start to drop like flies, it will be America's fault, as usual.

[Craig Read]

Well the Canadian Liberals will tell you that the military is unnecessary.

We are building a post modern caring and compassionate society.

Drivel. I always ask the old, the aggrieved, the obnoxiously arrogant Liberal and those who covet statism who will pay the bill ?

Between 1996 and today there has been a $54 billion drop in direct debt BUT this has been more than offset by increases in other liabilities such as the Canada and Quebec pension Plans, Old Age Security (OAS), and Medicare. These obligations increased $266 billion between 1996 and 2001.

The unfunded liability of Medicare alone grew by 37.4 percent between 1996 and 2000. In total, CPP, OAS, and Medicare unfunded liabilities grew by 22.3 percent during to a total of $1.4 trillion.

These program obligations are either paid out of general government revenue or have specific dedicated funding sources. An unfunded liability refers to a circumstance where the promised future benefits exceed the future expected revenues.

The military has been stripped bare as well.

So add into the above numbers the need to rebuild [if such a will exists] the military and this would cost an extra $10 billion over the next 5-10 years or about $50-100 billion in payments to cover rebuilding our international legitimacy.

The total debt per capita in Canada including unfunded liabilities is $172 K !!!!

So the snotty sneering liberals, my question is again - who will pay and is this moral ????

[Hugo]

Who will pay? Someone else! This is the liberal mindset - everyone wants to go to the party, nobody wants to clean up.

Tax and spend, ignore the deficit - some future generation will solve it!

Free abortions for all, and when the birth rate drops below the death rate, just open the floodgates to illiterate, non-anglophone, non-francophone immigrants!

Make sure everybody gets a worthless university degree, and then when nobody can get decent employment anymore, quickly legalise pot so everybody can get stoned after they get home from their McJob!

Gut the military, and hope nobody ever attacks! If they do, bow and scrape to the "moronic bastard" Americans and hope they have shorter memories than you!

Keep provincial police and RCMP funding levels at the lowest they've been for thirty years, and then pretend that the US has a much higher crime rate so don't moan about it!

Teach pre-teens all about sex in school, and when teen pregnancies rise without precedent, teach MORE pre-teens about sex - it must be the answer!

And it goes on. Suffice it to say, this is the kind of thinking you'd expect from children - irresponsibility and immaturity, hedonism and myopia.