Someone Has To Say It

[Craig Read]

I agree Ned. God is separated from the state, the state has no business in limiting the interpretation of religion or using the Constitution to impose 'Politically Correct' mindlessness.

The Church is important as a buffer against State power. It is important as a source of spirituality and moral roadmap for some people. I am not religious, but I can respect those who are.

Destroying Christian culture to appease Left Liberal Fascists who believe that other races might be offended is plainly nauseating.

My response is this. If your 'insert culture here' is superior, better or more advanced than the Judeao-Christian culture go home.

End of story. Don't impose your fantasies on OUR culture. Don't come here and abuse OUR culture by telling us our culture is wrong, blame worthy or inadequate. In fact don't come here at all in that case.

[Neal.F.]

Craig, most immigrants see it our way, that they wanted to come live in a fair society, one which is fair, basically because of Judeo-Christian values.

Those Left Liberal fascists to whom you refer, are , for the most part, angry white atheists who hate anything that asks them to be accountable for their actions. It's total rebellion against any authority except their own.

The few immigrants that screech alongslide the liberal swine are those who want to ingratiate themselves with the liberals, and wield political power ove their little ethnic fiefdoms.

[Black Dog]

As an angry whit eatheist I take offense at the implication that I don't wish to be held accountable by my actions. I do, just not by someone else's invisible super hero in the sky.

God is separated from the state, the state has no business in limiting the interpretation of religion or using the Constitution to impose 'Politically Correct' mindlessness.

But in the instance of the Ten Commandments controversy, the courthouse is an institution of the State and therefore an innapopriate location for a State official to publicly express his religious beliefs. Period.

My response is this. If your 'insert culture here' is superior, better or more advanced than the Judeao-Christian culture go home.

I am "home". Where shall I go?

[KrustyKidd]

Been a long time scince I went to Sunday school so had to look these up on the web for a closer look. I know that many cultures the world over that (until the last couple of centuries had no contact no contact with one another) shared one thing; The golden rule - do unto others as you would have done to you. On looking at these commandments listed below it seems that all but the first three and last two echo this rule and spell it out in slightly larger detail. As for the last two it is simply a rule of thumb for anybody with a concience to not drool over somebody else's wife/husband or stuff. Really though, what impresses me most here is that it may be thought by some to be the word of God but to those who do not believe in God or Gods it can be considered the conscience of man. This is the stuff we all know not to do whether you are Catholic, Hari Krishna, Buddist or a Turnip worshipper.

I AM THE LORD THY GOD, THOU SHALT NOT HAVE strange gods BEFORE ME.

THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN.

REMEMBER THOU KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH DAY.

HONOR THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER.

THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.

THOU SHALT NOT STEAL.

THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THY NEIGHBOR.

THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE.

THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S GOODS.

I say cut the first three and the last two out and place them separate from the others someplace where they are welcome and keep the others displayed prominently and

proudly.

[theloniusfleabag]

I think logical1 has the inside track on this issue.

Separation of church and state must become fact, lest Islam, Judaism, or Catholicism run our lives forever.

While I understand the commitment that the Judge from Alabama has for his religion, if it is allowed to steer the law we would therefore legitimize Islamic law as well. Not here of course, but we legitimize power as the deciding factor as to who's law will govern all peoples. The people of the planet, in whatever country, deserve equal and fair representation by notions that transcend religious beliefs.

And they are so simple. And they pre-date religion of any sort. (Oh, Piglet,[the god I worship sometimes late at night] forgive me for starting two sentences with the word 'and').

[Cameron]

I personally don't believe in god, or any religion for that matter. I think it's all just houp-la, nothing more than a myth....beliefs of peoples of a by-gone era. You can have your religion, just don't try and force it down my throat, or not even god can help you then.

Oh, and I think religion is the root of all evil, just look at the middle-east...nothing but trouble...oh well.

[Nuclear]

To say to me, a Christian, that I am wrong, is no different than me to tell someone else that they are wrong. I have my beliefs and you have yours.

In about a 100 years one of two things will happen:

1)

You're right and we disappear into nothingness or whatever you believe in for an afterlife or

2)

I'm right and I'm in Heaven while your lack of belief may land you somewhere else. Where I don't know as it's not my place to judge you.

We'll tell the tale then.

As for the Alabama issue: I don't see what harm the monument did. If someone believed in it, it was important to them and they felt it's presense was important. If they did not believe in it, then it was nothing but a piece of rock.

I am not French for example. If I go to Paris, and I see the Eiffel Tower, it will mean nothing to me other than 'wow, look at that funky thing.' But for a Parisian or a Frenchperson, it is a symbol of their country.

All of us encounter things daily we don't believe in and therefore take little notice of. One good example is political ads. You may think the person who they promote is a wacko so you ignore it where someone else may like what that wacko has to say.

As for separation of church and state, that was created to prevent Rome from ruling the country or for the country to impose religion on someone.

I do not feel this monument imposed it. It displayed it. If someone chose to believe in it or if someone only considered it a piece of rock, it's the same thing. The gov't didn't force anyone to believe in it.

Also, Judeo-Christian morals are for the most part the foundation of the US's morality(at least until recently) and law system.

I think it was sad they had to remove it because some people didn't like it. It did no harm to those who disliked it but now with it gone, those who did believe in it no longer have it.

[Cameron]

To say to me, a Christian, that I am wrong.......

No, No, you can have your beliefs and all. But if you look at religion in a world wide since, who is right? There are many other religions that don't have the beliefs that Christianity does. If you put all the religions of the world they will never agree. So I beg to ask the question, who is right? Wouldn't this bring up the process of elimination, is the Christian way of life the proper way? Or is Islam? I don't believe, and I don't like it when ANYBODY tires to justify doing something (eg - starting a "Holy War") against another nation or peoples. That pissed me off.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Cameron,

You have hit upon the crux of the religious issue.

I think all religions should be tried in a court of law. If they are to be used for a basis of law, that basis must be proved. If there is no provable basis, the religion should be removed from the law. Not so in Islam, I'm afraid, for questioning God is a 'hangin' offence' for they believe that there is no worse thing one could do. God, to them, is so far above human life that murdering another person is nothing compared to insulting god.

A noble concept, but hardly 'just'.

Israel is currently, and arguably, occupying territory strictly on the basis that "G-d said we could have this".

How could that ever be proven in court?!! But they can if it is their religion that is tied to the basis of law that created the courts. Same goes for Islam. If you read the Koran, (It takes a long time because of all the possible translations from sanskrit, and even then the Muslims say only the sanskrit version, untranslated, is the 'true word of god') you will find that they did believe the Jews were the 'chosen people' but have since disobeyed god (or Allah).

Most religion is based on rules and regulations of what to eat and when, etc. The Koran itself tried to be the most comprehensive in 'laying down the law' with rules and regs for all facets of daily life, eliminating free will, to a certain degree. The hebrew way is to have rabbis interpret the torah and talmud to cover those pesky daily questions like "Is it ok for a Jew to dress up as santa claus?' ( The answer was :as long as the costume is not complete, it would be ok. If one did not wear the hat, for example. And if one does wear a hat, it cannot be green, for that is the colour of Islam."

It is, in my opinion, the biggest un-addressed issue in the world today is "Which religion is right? Or is it none?

The answer would be closest to "Which religion includes and respects all things?

[KrustyKidd]

Good post Lonius,

The answer would be closest to "Which religion includes and respects all things?

None of them do. They all attempt to instruct the user on things that require freethinking, applying the golden rule to situations that change day to day, generation to generation.

I don't think this thread was intended to ask what we think our beliefs are so I'll try to explain this with the Santa analogy, which was quite funny BTW. What if you read the instructions wrong and wore the suit inside out? Will you go to hell? I doubt it, any rational being would see the devout intent in your heart and let it slide. By this theory many who have commited atrocities in the name of religion will be unrewarded if they did it by beleif and rewarded if they somehow felt uneasy about it. It also means that teachers can change the rules to suit the times; burning animal flesh on a stone alter is not practical in an office building to thank God for a successful stock trade so we can replace it with something more appropriate like thanking God for our health and family in private prayer.

The one thing that has never changed and has remained constant throughout the eons is the heart of man and what his God expects of him - BE STRAIGHT WITH EVERYBODY, YOU AND I INCLUDED. No matter what culture explorers of old encountered, no matter how remote and untouched these civilizations were they all had this fixed idealology. I think it is a natural instinct of all primates It was only when books made centuries earlier, that made sense centuries earlier, confined man to those archeic rules gave man loopholes to circumnavigate the prime rule. Ie; Adultery - Well, they are not really married as only engaged. So if I have a quickie before the wedding I'm still sinless.

Anyhow, I'm rambling. To me it comes down to whatever floats your boat. To retain traditions is great, if they infringe on the main rule then they should be changed. Like Nuremborg, to say you were only following orders is not good enough. God created free thinking beings for a reason, otherwise he would have made six billion muppets.

[Craig Read]

Yes KK you point out a critical distinction between Islam and Protestantism [not Catholicism]. This is free will, free interpretation and freedom of implementation.

Into such an intellectual ferment goes ideas, concepts, interpretations and beliefs - all different - all singular and often times competing.

It is healthy.

It leads to inquiry, innovation and tolerance.

The bedrock of Judeao-Christian civilisation.

Culture does matter.

[KrustyKidd]

I don't mean to imply that any religion is wrong or invent a new one however, God or the creator gave us brains. Our curiousity is also a survival mechanism, it was not made to be dulled by repitition and mental confinment but to search for answers, different and hopefully better ways of doing ALL things. To convert to a certain philosophy or religion and then stop thinking, challenging and philosophising is a slap in the face of the creator.

Trace back rules in any holy book and you would find very good reasons for them (if you lived two thousand years ago in the middle of a desert amongst a population of a few thousand max.) To have them blindly applied today is not thinking and counter to what the creator designed. If he had intended to have six billion obiedient muppets he would have made six billion boxes and wired us into them imobile.

[Yodeler]

To say to me, a Christian, that I am wrong.......

There are many other religions

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"There is only one religion, though there are a hundred versions of it." - G.B. Shaw

[newbie]

“Thou shall not kill”.

Actually, the original Hebrew says "Thou shalt commit no murder." The word used for "kill" in the Commandments is different from the word used for "kill" throughout the rest of the text.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not that I want to start a word war here, but perhaps you would like to explain the uses of smiteth, stone, and killeth that are also used in the same part of the Hebrew Bible. To me they are all used in the context of taking a life. Murder implies premeditation. So when God says things like to smithe, to stone or to killeth, you're saying He doesn't mean murder? Kinda hard to differentiate. One more reason not to take the Bible literal.