Republicans have given up on healthcare

[BeaverFever]

9 hours ago, User said:

Nevermind all the other negative crap that goes along with Medicare. Doctors hate it, many won't even see patients on it. Why? Because it is a government bureaucracy and trying to get paid is like trying to get milk from a bull. It is not worth the hassle. 

Thos same problems exist or are worse with private insurers. With Medicare, what’s covered and how to submit the claim is not a mystery. With private insurers, rules change all the time and can be different from one patient to the next and even from one doctor to the next. Doctors hav also complained that they get the runaround from private insurers, having the same claim denied repeatedly before it is paid, due to adjudicators allegedly having secret caps and quotas to meet when it comes to approvals amd denials.  Some big reasons that some docs will only treat patients with private insurance and don’t want medicare or medicaid are:

- They want to cater to wealthier higher “class” patients so filter out those who only have government benefits

-They want to bill at rates higher than Medicare allows 

-Since they inevitably end up having to chase patients to settle fees not covered by insurance, they want patients with more coverage than the standard Medicaid 80/20 

- They belong to a HMO or private network where treating out-of-network patients is prohibited or less lucrative. 
 

 

Edited August 20, 2024 by BeaverFever

[Matthew]

16 hours ago, CdnFox said:

So, you're looking at your incorrect math and attempting to extrapolate an effective comparison

I'm not talking about any comparison in this point. You're trying to tell me what the actual amount americans spend on healthcare. I'm saying what i myself spent on healthcare last year. I'm not sure what you're whining about with this fact.

16 hours ago, CdnFox said:

No - that has nothing to do with the cost of delivering medical services.

Why is that suddenly a threshold that matters? What does Canada's system have that is worse than millions of people not having any access to healthcare?

16 hours ago, CdnFox said:

So she's poor. Is that my fault? Did i do that? So why should i pay for it?

Your previous comment is based on some fairytale version of private healthcare filled with choices and that by not having taxes taken out for health services, like the miserable surfs of Canada, she's thus free to spend her own money. The reality is that people have very few choices they can make and the system is very much engineered for the purpose of extracting profits

16 hours ago, CdnFox said:

That's a CHOICE on an individual basis.

Again, fairytale. Most insured people buy insurance through their employer. An insurance company has a deal with your workplace and sells a plan from a set of group rate packages to choose from. You can only realy go with this one company because within each region of the US there are only one or two insurance companies who have negotiated pricing agreements with the local health provider networks of that region (and the one your employer picks will have some empoyer contributions that make it worthwhile compared to the go it alone route). If you try to go with no insurance and just save up a cash fund like smartass, you'll have to pay the ramped up sticker price, so like $300 for an annual physical or $50,000 for an emergency appendectomy. Insurance doesn't actually pay these amounts, they have negotiated lower prices.

Edited August 19, 2024 by Matthew

[Matthew]

As we all digress here in this fascinating comparison of the US and Canadian health systems, keep in mind I'm also still waiting for ANY insights on details of the Republican Party's long term designs for healthcare which they have become very quite about during this election cycle.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

No it’s not, it’s nearly 1 in 3 Americans, which is why healthcare expenses are the leading cause of bankruptcy in the US. 

 

Current us population.  333 million

30 million without insurance. 

= 1 in 3 americans in your mind? 

I know math is hard but damn kid. 

 

As to the rest - you need to settle down and think before you waste people's time with that crap. For example what canadians pay in taxes for 'health care' does not include what they pay for private plans or personally for drugs etc etc AS I ALREADY POINTED OUT. 

You're just plain wrong and you make an ass of yourself when you take a page and a half to be that wrong. 

And no the statistics don't show the average american has worse results for the same treatment.  Further i've already pointed to the stats showing access issues such as er visits, wait times for proceedures and surgeries etc.  Canada is vasly behind. 

And you don't even seem to have a point. Other than 'Dont' talk bad about public health care you meanie'.  

Kid - there are strong pros and cons to each, as i've said from the beginning. It's not as cut and dry as you'd think. The us system is better in many ways, ours has advantages in other ways. 

 

Now lets get to the question you couldn't answer and tried to lie your way past  

 

Quote

1) That the person “who can afford healthcare” represents the average American when in fact it doesn’t  Only relatively wealthy Americans can afford healthcare. The rest can only afford healthcare as long as they don’t get seriously ill or injured.  

It never made that assumption at all.  I never said anything about who those who could afford it were - i asked why they (whomever they are) should put their own health and lives at risk to benefit someone else?

 

Quote

2) That excess deaths are occurring Canada when in fact they are occurring in USA  

That's just plain stupid.  Like - beyond stupid.   The fact as i noted is that in canada people who could afford health care if it were private or semi private don't get the health care they COULD afford because others who can't suck up the resources. 

You would see the states do  the same. 

HOW IS IT FAIR THAT SOMEONE WHO CAN AFFORD IT GIVE UP THEIR HEALTH OR LIFE FOR SOMEONE ELSE?

Simple question  and you bullshitted past it- which tells me you know it's morally wrong  and  you can't answer it. 

[Rebound]

20 hours ago, CdnFox said:

No, what you demonstrated was that you don't understand how canadian tax works. 

Which is understandable, you're not a canadian.  But no. 

Canadians do pay less than the us. Calculating how much exactly can be very difficult. You can see my reply to gatomontes99 for yet another way to look at it (which is still not quite accurate but there you go). 

And even with that i forgot to include private health care plans and costs which add up to a few hundred billion on top of what the gov't spends (but that also bites into the drug costs). 

It's not nearly as much less as you think. 

And it recently took me 5 years to get a family doctor when i moved, and my local emergency room is shut down part time right now. I can't get an ambulence here due to a shortage of drivers.  etc etc. 

So when you compare the quality of service (as much as possible) americans pay a little more but they GET more.  

And its entirely reasonable for someone to say "i'd rather pay and get what i need than save a few bucks and die in a waiting room for lack of services.  (has actually happened a number of times in canada last year). 

 

 

It is not difficult out to calculate the amount spent on healthcare if you simply take the total amount spent nationwide divided by the number of citizens, i.e., per capita healthcare spending. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita

US: $12,500 per person

Canada: $6,309 per person

Edited August 19, 2024 by Rebound

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, Rebound said:

It is not difficult out to calculate the amount spent on healthcare if you simply take the total amount spent nationwide divided by the number of citizens, i.e., per capita healthcare spending. 

You mean like i did. 

Keep reading the thread kid, we've been down this road 

Oh, and you got the math wrong. 

Edited August 19, 2024 by CdnFox

[BeaverFever]

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Current us population.  333 million

30 million without insurance. 

= 1 in 3 americans in your mind? 

I know math is hard but damn kid. 

I also mentioned another 60 million underinsured. That’s 90 million total. 
 

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

As to the rest - you need to settle down and think before you waste people's time with that crap. For example what canadians pay in taxes for 'health care' does not include what they pay for private plans or personally for drugs etc etc AS I ALREADY POINTED OUT. 

You’re shifting the goalposts. You mentioned that they save “a buttload” in taxes.  Look.  A perfectly healthy American who consumes no healthcare at all pays thousands of dollars more just to have coverage compared to a similarly situated Canadian. You want to layer in out of pocket costs for Rx drugs,  again Americans pay 2-3 times more for the exact same Rx as Canadians and just about any other service that a person pays for out of pocket costs more in the US. An X-ray, crutches, you name it. Sometimes WAY more.   So you don’t want to go there. The fees Canadians pay for private coverage is usually nominal and coverage is usually optional…you mentioned you pay $75 a month, I pay nothing for mine  

The only scenario where an American pays less is a very wealthy and healthy American who doesn’t need insurance and who doesn’t use much healthcare. 
 

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

You're just plain wrong and you make an ass of yourself when you take a page and a half to be that wrong. 

I’m not wrong about anything once again you can’t follow the plot. Just because Trump is confused and rambling these days doesn’t mean you have to copy him.  😃
 

To recap once again:  unless you’re very rich you will pay more for health insurance and health expenses in the US than you would in Canada, including healthcare taxes. 
 

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

And no the statistics don't show the average american has worse results for the same treatment. 

Yes they do, for major procedures it’s been  reported over the years, such as here and here.  Keep in mind as I said the main reason is not that the treatment is worse but because Americans are less likely to access primary care so their illness is more advanced by the time it’s detected and treatment commences, and they also get less care after treatment 

 

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Further i've already pointed to the stats showing access issues such as er visits, wait times for proceedures and surgeries etc.  Canada is vasly behind. 

 

Yes wait times are bad I never said otherwise and we’re still clearing a pandemic backlog I believe. But wait times are triaged and urgent needs get top priority so that alone doesn’t offset the other issues. 
 

 

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

t never made that assumption at all.  I never said anything about who those who could afford it were - i asked why they (whomever they are) should put their own health and lives at risk to benefit someone else?

But that’s the whole point you totally gloss over the fact that the only people who could afford healthcare are rich people. The “someone else” you mention are the working class people in the USA THE AVERAGE AMERICANS are the ones who benefit.

 

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

That's just plain stupid.  Like - beyond stupid.   The fact as i noted is that in canada people who could afford health care if it were private or semi private don't get the health care they COULD afford because others who can't suck up the resources. 

The only people who can afford private healthcare are rich people the people who “suck up the resources” are the majority of the rest of the population.  The way insurance works, the bigger the risk pool, the cheaper it is for every member in that pool. Public insurance pools your risk in the biggest possible pool. Private insurance would break it up into tiny pools which would mean higher premiums and more restrictions on coverage. 
 

 

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

HOW IS IT FAIR THAT SOMEONE WHO CAN AFFORD IT GIVE UP THEIR HEALTH OR LIFE FOR SOMEONE ELSE?

Simple question  and you bullshitted past it- which tells me you know it's morally wrong  and  you can't answer it. 

Dude you don’t get it. I REJECT THE PREMISE OF YOUR QUESTION 

Why? Because

1) the “someone who can afford it” in question is only very rich people. YOU can’t afford it. Most Canadians can’t afford it, even those with high salaries. Most Americans can’t afford it. Public policy is for the benefit of the public, not it richest 1%  

2) The “someone else” who you accuse of using up the healthcare is the majority of the population, including YOU. Perhaps it is unfair that a member of the 1% has to be inconvenienced by waiting his turn among the common folk and having to let those with more serious conditions go ahead of him. But in practice what you propose is that we common folk should be made worse off so that the 1% can have even greater convenience in life. 
 

3) Claims of people giving up their health or life are greatly exaggerated.  The vast majority of people have no loss of either while waiting and the longest waits are for non/urgent procedures like knee surgery 

[CdnFox]

26 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

I also mentioned another 60 million underinsured. That’s 90 million total. 

Under insured is not the same as not insured.  Sorry. 

As to the rest- 

There's no shifting of goalposts, americans pay a lot less in tax than we do, we pay a lot more.  So they save on tax, we save on medical. When you work it out on average we could be said to be getting medical for about 3000 a year less.  That's it. And we give up a lot of quality of service for that. 
 

Most of the rest is just you being wrong again and like a petulent child freaking out over it.  Nobody said americans pay less. Nobody.  I said they pay only a little more but they get more as a result.  Yet you waste time trying to 'prove' that americans pay more.  What are ya - sum kinda idjit or somethin?

And nobody glossed over anything.  Oh, and it's not just the rich. 

Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2022 (census.gov)

More people were insured in 2022 than 2021. In 2022, 92.1 percent of people, or 304.0 million, had health insurance at some point during the year, representing an increase in the insured rate and number of insured from 2021 (91.7 percent or 300.9 million)

Sooooooo.  Yeah.  Nobody claimed it and you were wrong. 

35 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

The only people who can afford private healthcare are rich people the people who “suck up the resources” are the majority of the rest of the population.

Well we know that's not true now.  So there you go. 

 

Quote

Dude you don’t get it. I REJECT THE PREMISE OF YOUR QUESTION 

I get it just fine.  You're a hypocritical piece of crap who knows i'm right and that there is no answer to the question and you don't want to admit it. 

The fact is there is NO reason why people who can afford it should give up their health care for someone else.  Simple .  You just don't want to say it out loud because it makes pretty much everything else you said a lie. 

well there you go. So we know the truth. There is no good reason for a public health system that causes people who can afford health care to surrender their right to health care to other people. Even you can't come up with a reason for it 

 

 

[Matthew]

17 hours ago, CdnFox said:

When you work it out on average we could be said to be getting medical for about 3000 a year less.

That's so far off the mark. Btw when i was tallying up my fairly typical $24,000 USD health insurance cost, I wasnt even including the thousands of dollars in Medicare and Medicaid taxes I also pay toward the tens of millions of people who do get free government Healthcare in the US.

[CdnFox]

30 minutes ago, Matthew said:

That's so far off the mark.

Considering your math skills to date i'm afraid you're not qualified to say that  

But as an average it's probaby reasonably close. 

Quote

Btw when i was tallying up my  .....

blah blah blah  Yaaawn. 

Kid.  I already added up the expenditures as reported by the gov't.  Americans spend more  on health care, but not by huge amounts and they get better access.  Canadians spend a little less but suffer with longer wait tiems and lower access. 

That's the simple fact. 

So instead of making an ass of yourself trying to dance around that fact, why don't you get back to the point? You had a point somewhere didn't you? 

or better yet - answer the simple question i asked earlier which was why should someone who can afford it die so someone they don't know can have access? that's still the moral issue you'll have to address at the end of the day, because that's what's  happening in canada. 

[Matthew]

46 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

But as an average it's probaby reasonably close. 

I love how you think it's utterly impossible for me to even make a rough estimate of canadian taxes. 

Yet you also you think you know more about what i spend on healthcare in the US.

[Matthew]

53 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

why should someone who can afford it die so someone they don't know can have access?

Given that your country spends so little on healthcare, your minor problems with wait times are understandable. If you dont like it, you society should just spend more on it.

[CdnFox]

13 minutes ago, Matthew said:

I love how you think it's utterly impossible for me to even make a rough estimate of canadian taxes. 

 

Oh i don't think it's impossible.  I'm sure with the proper training and coaching and a good night's sleep (maybe at a holiday inn) you could pull it off   

What's more interesting is that you can't seem to answer the simple question i asked you. IF you can't manage that, then advanced accounting is probably beyond you. 

15 minutes ago, Matthew said:

Yet you also you think you know more about what i spend on healthcare in the US.

No, i don't care what you spend. I care what everybody spends. See - this is why you struggle with simple math, you just don't pay attention properly. 

[CdnFox]

8 minutes ago, Matthew said:

Given that your country spends so little on healthcare, your minor problems with wait times are understandable.

Sure - spend less get less.  And of course right now we have an issue with absolutely insane amounts of immigration and that puts strain on the medical system. Plus we fired thousands and thousands of medical professionals (doctors, nurses, specialist types) during covid because they didn't want to get vaxxed and they won't come back. 

It's not like i can't explain why.  

But the challenge is that I as an individual can't fix it either.  I don't control immigraiton. I don't control how much the province spends. Revenues originally collected for medical reasons get repurposed.  I have virtually no control over my health care service. 

There are many who point out that if they are able to afford it, they should be allowed to have the healthcare they want. 

 

Quote

If you dont like it, you society should just spend more on it.

Society doesn't listen to one person does it.  That's the point.  and society doesn't spend the money, people do.  ANd others control how much i spend. 

But if it were private, i COULD choose to spend more and get more. 

So there you go. You seem to be advocating for a private system   

 

ANd where's my answer to that question? Or are you admitting that there's no moral basis for public care in your opinion?

[BeaverFever]

21 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Under insured is not the same as not insured.  Sorry.  

Ok you’re proving yet again you have no idea what you’re talking about and are just making shit up again. Regarding the problem of Americans without adequate healthcare coverage who can’t get the care they need or go they count and they’re part id the problem  You can’t just arbitrarily declare that somehow they don’t count in this discussion because it’s inconvenient to your uninformed opinion
 

21 hours ago, CdnFox said:

There's no shifting of goalposts, americans pay a lot less in tax than we do, we pay a lot more.  So they save on tax, we save on medical. When you work it out on average we could be said to be getting medical for about 3000 a year less.  That's it. And we give up a lot of quality of service for that. 

Ok so now the goalposts are moved again, now to discuss all taxes not just healthcare costs.  
 

While there are high tax jurisdictions in the USA and some very low ones, I don’t think anyone would disagree with a general statement that the tax burden in the US is generally lower than in Canada. But that’s going to vary depending on the amount and type of income, jurisdiction and so on. I’ve seen older studies suggesting Canadians in general pay 5% more tax. Chat GPT thinks its “5% to 10%” more including EI, CPP, etc. Now that’s before you factor in US health insurance premiums   Now note that Canadian health insurance is included in this figure but US Health insurance isn’t. Chat gpt says that on average, Americans spend 7% to 10% of their annual income on health insurance premiums which roughly puts them on par or even slightly worse off than Canadians.
 

Plus since you’ve expanded the topic beyond health care while we pay more taxes we also get more and better public services with fewer if any out of pocket costs: from transit to education to safe drinking water to air traffic control to maternity/parental leave benefits to just being able to access services through a service Canada or Service Ontario website or office..meanwhile USA is still very analog and fragmented and any public service funded is shitty by design. And we have better social outcomes as result with less crime and poverty social ills, etc.  Unless you’re on a FN Reserve anyway  

 

21 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Most of the rest is just you being wrong again and like a petulent child freaking out over it.  Nobody said americans pay less. Nobody.  I said they pay only a little more but they get more as a result.  Yet you waste time trying to 'prove' that americans pay more.  What are ya - sum kinda idjit or somethin?

Americans pay A LOT MORE.  Not a little more.  At every stage. Twice as much or more just to have coverage,  2-3 times more on average for drugs or for care when they receive it. Famously US has allowed price gouging US drug companies to jack the price of insulin, a drug they didn’t invent or develop, to US to $300-$400 or more while in Canada it is still only $30. That’s a 10x price increase and it’s not the only one.  US did the same with epipen and then there’s the shit that Martin Shkrelli dirtbag pulled when he bought up a live-saving HIV drug and increased the price by 5,000% (BTW, all that price gouging was defended and protected by Republicans in the name of “free market”).  All this to say Americans pay a HELL of a lot more. Not “a little more”

21 hours ago, CdnFox said:

And nobody glossed over anything.  Oh, and it's not just the rich. 

Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2022 (census.gov)

More people were insured in 2022 than 2021. In 2022, 92.1 percent of people, or 304.0 million, had health insurance at some point during the year, representing an increase in the insured rate and number of insured from 2021 (91.7 percent or 300.9 million)

Sooooooo.  Yeah.  Nobody claimed it and you were wrong. 

*sigh* you really can’t follow along can you?  Let’s try this again:  Go through these ine at a time ok ?  Have someone read it to you if it’s easier 

1) Unless they’re very rich, Americans will have to buy Health Insurance 

2) Americans who buy Health Insurance pay more for coverage than Canadians pay in healthcare taxes and private supplementary coverage 

3) Americans who have Health Insurance still less coverage than Canadians, many have such poor coverage they still can’t afford access the  healthcare they need or go bankrupt as a result

4) Americans who pay for drugs and healthcare services pay more for the same service than Canadians 

21 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Well we know that's not true now.  So there you go. 

No you’re confusing paying for health insurance with paying for healthcare. See above. 
 

21 hours ago, CdnFox said:

I get it just fine.  You're a hypocritical piece of crap who knows i'm right and that there is no answer to the question and you don't want to admit it. 

LMAO you don’t get it at and you’re so twisted and turned around you have  confused yourself and true to form you’re lashing out. 
 

One more time: Only rich people can afford health CARE.  Everyone else INCLUDING YOU has to buy Health INSURANCE because paying directly for care is unaffordable. Canadians buy their health insurance through a public single payer system which costs you significantly less than Americans’ private system  

In our system, someone else will get treated before you if they are sicker than you, not because they’re richer than you and can pay for a VIP line. 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Ok you’re proving yet again you have no idea what you’re talking about and are just making shit up again.

F*ck you dumbass - i've proved everything i've said and you haven't proved a single thing you've said in the slightest. You just returned to the same bullshit as if it's true when it isn't. I have proven quite clearly what Americans spend on healthcare and that over 90% have insurance coverage each year

Any 5-year-old should be able to explain why the rest of your post is wrong and a poor attempted thinking So I'll leave it to you to find one to explain it.

So you're Lying through your teeth. Americans have health care even relatively poor ones have coverage and they have the right to buy additional health care on top of that

We know what Americans spend on health care. We know what Canadians spend on health care. Canadian coverage also doesn't cover everything But unfortunately people can't really buy more other than their medication

Everything else is complete bullshit.

That's why you're getting frustrated. You know that you're wrong and you're mad that simply repeating a lie doesn't make it magically true

 

And I get it just fine. For me this is simple. The one who has to try and twist and turn to desperately find some way to fit it into his psyche is you. To the point where you lie even in the face of information that's been provided to you from legitimate sources

 

And you still can't answer that simple question.

Sorry kid, this conversation was just a little bit too "Big boy" for you. Go play with your Lego and come back next time and try harder

Edited August 21, 2024 by CdnFox

[User]

13 hours ago, Matthew said:

Given that your country spends so little on healthcare, your minor problems with wait times are understandable. If you dont like it, you society should just spend more on it.

Here is the underlying problem with the "Yeah Big Government Controlling My Life" crowd...

If you don't like something in the market, you can choose something else or at the very least have far more power to make the decisions for yourself. 

As opposed to spending your life fighting a hopeless bureaucracy maybe hoping you can get enough people to agree with you to vote for a change... 

 

[User]

Its comical... I work with Canadians regularly. Not one of them has ever told me how much they love their health care system. Not one. 

In fact, just this week one was complaining about how it is impossible to go to the hospital ER or any other facility to get seen unless you are literally dying because the lines are so long. 

I know it is anecdotal... for folks in America, the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence. 

Doesn't make our system perfect, it has a lot of flaws, but the solution to a convoluted bureaucracy controlled by government is not to make it a bigger convoluted bureaucracy even more controlled by government. 

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, User said:

Its comical... I work with Canadians regularly. Not one of them has ever told me how much they love their health care system. Not one. 

In fact, just this week one was complaining about how it is impossible to go to the hospital ER or any other facility to get seen unless you are literally dying because the lines are so long. 

I know it is anecdotal... for folks in America, the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence. 

Doesn't make our system perfect, it has a lot of flaws, but the solution to a convoluted bureaucracy controlled by government is not to make it a bigger convoluted bureaucracy even more controlled by government. 

This is a good summation of the issue. 

America = better services and choice and more control, higher prices and some people have less access

Canada = worse services and choice and no control. If you want to have better service and are willing to pay for it, too bad.  but what access there is is spread SOMEWHAT more evenly (still access to medication issues for some)

@BeaverFever is quite wrong in his claims that only the very rich get healthcare in the us. As i demonstrated 92 percent have coverage and most have pretty decent coverage. 

So it boils down to a choice.  Both systems have their pro's and con's.

[BeaverFever]

14 hours ago, CdnFox said:

you haven't proved a single thing you've said in the slightest.

That’s not true at all!  You’re just lying now because what Ive said isn’t convenient for you. Or you’re just doing that thing you right wing nut-jobs always do where you just lobotomize yourself delete it from your memory. How do you just blank your memory like that? Tell me is it a knitting needle through the eye socket or do snort bleach or what?  I’ve provided you the numbers repeatedly. 
 

14 hours ago, CdnFox said:

I have proven quite clearly what Americans spend on healthcare and that over 90% have insurance coverage each year

I’ve explained to you that Americans some form of coverage doesn’t mean they can afford healthcare. You’re so uneducated in the topic you think “having coverage” means they have comprehensive coverage comparable to Canadians but as Ive tried to get through your thick skull, it doesn’t. Not even close. Not even for the best and most expensive insurance plans. That’s why I told you there are 60 million underinsured Americans, nearly a third of Americans can’t afford healthcare even if they have insurance because all many can only afford shitty insurance that doesn’t adequately cover them if they can afford insurance at all, to which you basically replied “umm derp me no get it, me change subject!!”

I am getting frustrated because ONCE AGAIN you wade in a topic that you know very little about and get in way over your head then you try to bluff your way out with your characteristic bullshitting, lying and personal attacks

To reiterate:

1) Unless they’re very rich, Americans will have to buy Health Insurance 

2) Americans who buy Health Insurance pay more for coverage than Canadians pay in healthcare taxes and private supplementary coverage 

3) Americans who have Health Insurance still have less coverage than Canadians, many have such poor coverage they still can’t afford access the  healthcare they need or go bankrupt as a result

4) Americans who pay for drugs and healthcare services pay more for the same service than Canadians 

[BeaverFever]

6 hours ago, User said:

Its comical... I work with Canadians regularly. Not one of them has ever told me how much they love their health care system. Not one. 

In fact, just this week one was complaining about how it is impossible to go to the hospital ER or any other facility to get seen unless you are literally dying because the lines are so long. 

I know it is anecdotal... for folks in America, the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence. 

Doesn't make our system perfect, it has a lot of flaws, but the solution to a convoluted bureaucracy controlled by government is not to make it a bigger convoluted bureaucracy even more controlled by government. 

Oh gosh well if you occasionally talk to Canadians you must be more more knowledgeable than ACTUAL Canadians. 🙄

Next time you talk to talk to one, ask them point blank if they would prefer the US system. Canadian healthcare is by far the most popular policy in Canada and has been for generations, right across all party lines. 

It’s true, it’s not perfect and the cult of austerity which has haunted North America since Reagan-Thatcher has left it insufficiently funded to the point that there can be long waits in ER for non-urgent conditions. It needs improvement but few people want to scrap it altogether  for an American system where you’re out of pocket thousands more if youre healthy and tens of thousands more if youre not and denied care altogether if you have can’t afford what is needed 

[Matthew]

19 hours ago, CdnFox said:

But if it were private, i COULD choose to spend more and get more. 

You wouldn't have much of a choice. Families like mine who pay for health insurance give more to that one company in a year than they do to the federal, state, local government in taxes.

19 hours ago, CdnFox said:

No, i don't care what you spend.

Lol then why tf are you repeatedly writing lengthy commentary in response to statements about what I spend?

19 hours ago, CdnFox said:

ANd where's my answer to that question?

You started off strong in this thread. But after the quality of someone's replies drops to insults and pointless pissing contest banter I stop reading most of what they write, so I never saw a question, nor am I interested at this point in any bad faith questions you have. You're no longer actually engaging in discussion.

[BeaverFever]

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

This is a good summation of the issue. 

America = better services and choice and more control, higher prices and some people have less access

Canada = worse services and choice and no control. If you want to have better service and are willing to pay for it, too bad.  but what access there is is spread SOMEWHAT more evenly (still access to medication issues for some)

@BeaverFever is quite wrong in his claims that only the very rich get healthcare in the us. As i demonstrated 92 percent have coverage and most have pretty decent coverage. 

So it boils down to a choice.  Both systems have their pro's and con's.

Americans don’t necessarily have more control. Their employer decides what insurance they can have and their insurance company decides what treatment they can have.   This means many people who live with illness or conditions are also permanently tied to their employer because changing jobs could interfere with their coverage and treatment. Before Obamacare, “pre-existing conditions” clauses in most insurance policies made it almost completely impossible for someone with a diagnosed illness to change employers because the they would be excluded from coverage under the new employer’s plan.  Obamacare outlawed this and Trump tried and failed to repeal that provision 

 

The main thing Canadians can’t control are wait times although they can ask for referral to providers with shorter wait times and a lot of workplaces offer mediation opinion seras a benefit which can help people navigate the system and wait times. 
 

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

@BeaverFever is quite wrong in his claims that only the very rich get healthcare in the us. As i demonstrated 92 percent have coverage and most have pretty decent coverage. 

JFC I never said that. I said only the very rich could afford to pay for care out of pocket with no insurance. Everyone else pays for insurance and pays thousands of dollars a year more than Canadians. I honestly don’t know how many more different ways I can say that so you understand.

[User]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Oh gosh well if you occasionally talk to Canadians you must be more more knowledgeable than ACTUAL Canadians. 🙄

Next time you talk to talk to one, ask them point blank if they would prefer the US system. Canadian healthcare is by far the most popular policy in Canada and has been for generations, right across all party lines. 

It’s true, it’s not perfect and the cult of austerity which has haunted North America since Reagan-Thatcher has left it insufficiently funded to the point that there can be long waits in ER for non-urgent conditions. It needs improvement but few people want to scrap it altogether  for an American system where you’re out of pocket thousands more if youre healthy and tens of thousands more if youre not and denied care altogether if you have can’t afford what is needed 

I don't occasionally talk to Canadians, I work with them daily. We occasionally talk about healthcare issues. 

I just talked to one this week, he gets his dental work done in America when he is down here on business because it is better and complains regularly about the waits in Canada. 

You clearly don't seem to understand how the American system works very well, but as I have already said, I am not a fan of it either... but the solution to a convoluted government bureaucracy and regulations causing the issues is not more government bureaucracy and regulations causing more issues. 

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, User said:

I just talked to one this week, he gets his dental work done in America when he is down here on business because it is better and complains regularly about the waits in Canada. 

Ok well now something definitely doesn’t add up because dental work is fully private up here just as it is in the USA and not part of public healthcare. People pay for dental with private plans from their employer, which will almost never cover dental expenses incurred in another country. Dental offices are everywhere and there are no wait times. There is literally ZERO incentive or reason for anyone to cross the border for dental care. 

AND as an added advantage it costs less than the states because the price controls for drugs and other factors that contain costs in the medical system also contain costs on the dental system

 

1 hour ago, User said:

You clearly don't seem to understand how the American system works very well, but as I have already said, I am not a fan of it either... but the solution to a convoluted government bureaucracy and regulations causing the issues is not more government bureaucracy and regulations causing more issues. 

I actually know quite a bit about the US system. My dad was a doctor who practiced on both sides of the border, I went to university in the US and lived there for 5 years, and my career has involved working with both US and Canadian employer benefit plans.