SCC allows kirpans

[geoffrey]

If you ban these Kirpan's where does it end?

Please explain one difference between a scalpel used in a science biology class and a kirpan. Both are knives, both are even sharp (likely the scalpel is sharper then the kirpan). Holy shit, the scalpel is even purposely manufactured to cut flesh.

I am outraged, why haven't scalpel's been banned before!!!!!!

School kids are not allowed to carry scalpels because......THEY COULD BE USED AS A WEAPON! Scalpels are locked up in the bio labs, where they should be.

Thanks for supporting my arguement.

Just like these Kirpans should be locked up in their Mosque/Temple/Sihkdom. No need for weapons to be carried in Canada.

If its the case that it is neccessary, then I want to carry a handgun like the Yanks. I mean, there must be some threat to safety to warrent carrying a 11 inch blade around with me.

From the Sikhs Canada website:

“… (the sword) is by ancient tradition and association, a typical weapon of offence and defense and, hence, a fundamental right of the free man, the sovereign individual to wear it. All governments and rulers, whether ancient or modern, have insisted and do insist on their right to control and curtail the right of a citizen to wear arms. Indeed, in the final analysis, a government or the State is sustained and supported by organized power and the exclusive right of possession or arms, a citizen’s right to wear arms being conceded as only a permissive and licensed character. It follows from this that the measure of freedom to posses and wear arms by an individual is the precise measure of his freedom and sovereignty.”

SOURCE: http://www.sikhs.ca/kirpan/kirpanarticle.html

Sounds like the American argument about concealed handguns. Weird that the left hates those, but loves Kirpans.

It goes on:

"The Kirpan is our way of showing to the world that we as Sikhs will never bow down to any state authority. The Sikhs of the Guru recognize only one authority, and that is God. We recognize only one throne, and that is the Eternal Throne of the Timeless one, the Takht Akal Bunga Sahib. Our Kirpans are our passports of freedom.

The Kirpan is a tool of sovereignty.

They can take their sovereignty back to India or whevever they come from. In Canada, rule of law is the way it works, not God being the only authority.

Bhai Sahib’s answer could not be more clear. You need to be ready to fight at any second. A threat is always imminent. Sikhs have a warrior culture and promote their warrior ideals in order to keep that ideal alive every generation. Even if Sikhs grow used to peace, which we never really do, since its only a matter of time until we face persecution again, we must be reminded that we are warriors, so that when a threat to freedom arises, we will be ready and prepared to strike it down quickly.

Umm, not in Canada my friend.

"Another point is that as a real last-resort self-defense tool, the Kirpan should be of a certain length. How large? Shaheed Baba Jarnail Singh states that a nine inch Kirpan is the bare minimum of personal defense. This seems reasonable, for a weapon any smaller would be hard to use without excellent training. For an even clearer injunction and one that carries more authority and weight, a little known Hukamnama from Takht Sachkhand Sri Hazur Sahib at Nanded, Maharastra is very useful. This Hukamnama was written in response to the British administration in the sub-continent banning the Kirpan in 1913.

Guru Gobind Singh, the Master of the universe, since the day of revelation of the Khalsa Panth, issued a command to Sikhs to wear the Kirpan at all times, which has been a part of the Khalsa since that point. Now, for some time a few Sikhs in Punjab have begun wearing very small Kirpans. Several Sikhs have requested the Takht Sahib to issue an injunction as to what should be the minimum size of the Kirpan. So, it is the verdict of the Takht that the Kirpan that is to be carried in the sword belt, (gatra or kamarkasa) be no less than one foot (30 centimeters) in length."

So it must be an effective killing weapon for it to be religious according to their leaders.

"When all peaceful means to resolve a crucial problem fail, It is justifiable to wield the sword."

-Zafarnama, Guru Gobind Singh, 22 stanza

Again, this religion is in compatiable with Canadian culture. These are their current teachings and beliefs from a website run by the Sikhs.

And to finish it up, anyone want to hear one last bit of fundamentalist violence:

Religion is the key to life. Sovereignty is the key to religion, and as Guru jee states quite clearly, weapons are the key to sovereignty. Without weapons you can have no sovereignty, without sovereignty, religion cannot flourish, without religion, all is destroyed.

I don't know why we let these people into our country or why we allow them to remain. Police protect us, not swords. Lose the weapons or get the hell out.

[Hydraboss]

We don't simply ban anything that could potentially be used as a weapon. The jump in logic here is that someone who carries a kirpan will use it to assault another student. We have laws against that, what we shouldn't have laws for is prohibiting people from practicing their religion. And by practicing their religion, I don't mean murdering people or assaulting them with knives....something I don't imagine any Sikh has EVER done in Canada.

We don't ban POTENTIAL weapons. We ban weapons. Kirpans are knives DESIGNED FOR ASSAULT, and therefore are weapons. We ban weapons. So, you can't imagine any Sikh has EVER assaulted anyone in Canada with a knife. Are you serious? Really?

Scalpels are knives DESIGNED FOR LIFE SAVING OPERATIONS. And yet, we are still not allowed to carry them into schools with risking being charged with carrying a weapon.

And answer a question asked earlier in this thread:

Would you have a problem with my kid carrying a Glock 9mm if my "recognized religion" said he should? Even though guns..ALL GUNS...are designed to kill? Would you let my kid hang out in the playground with your kid? I'll bet not.

There must be a heirarchy of law in every country. Public safety is paramount over religious right. And it damn well should be.

At least it used to be...

[geoffrey]

Sikh's believe that its a tool of their soverignty and without it, they won't be able to crush us if we infringe on their rights.

I was just against haven't them in schools, now I'm against having them anywhere. Anyone found with one should be jailed or if an immigrant deported immediately.

[Chimera]

The Kirpan

Kirpans range in size from large ceremonial swords to tiny knives worn around the neck. It is required that all Sikhs wear the kirpan, even in bed.

The banning of all Kirpans would include these necklace Kirpans. I admit that I have not seen one personally, but I would not have an issue with a child wearing a necklace with a tiny kirpan on it. Seems to me like it would be less dangerous than some of that freaky studded gothic wear crap I see kids wearing around.

This decision does read like individual Kirpans can still be banned though, if it were long enough to be considered a potential threat.

And for all of you who seem so worried about your kids (bear with me, not saying it's a bad thing), you must be old enough to have carried pocket knives to school. I know I did. It was never taken from me, and I never even thought about using it when I got in fights. Were we somehow more responsible back then?

[Shakeyhands]

I wish one of you would at least come out and say "they are different than I am so they should have this kirpan thingy banned... and IF THEY DON'T LIKE OUR RULES THEY CAN GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!

at least then you would be being honest.

[geoffrey]

I wish one of you would at least come out and say "they are different than I am so they should have this kirpan thingy banned... and IF THEY DON'T LIKE OUR RULES THEY CAN GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!

at least then you would be being honest.

I've already said I want them gone due to their belief that their soverignty comes before law and that they insist that they need weapons to defend themselves in Canada.

Off with them, be gone now. No need to have weapons carrying civilians in Canada.

[Spike22]

I think all of you are nuts. They wear these small things solely for religious reasons. Us southern baptists blieve in havin' guns. Big deal as long as no ones gettin an eye shot out our stabbin' one anuther. Yee Haw!

[sage]

Don't get me wrong, the whole thing seems a little ridiculous. I have no clue how carrying something around gets you into heaven.

The fact of it is though the odds of the kirpan on this kid being used as a weapon is infinitesimal, and whatever argument you're going to make applies equally to all sorts of other things found in the school yard, think rocks, scalpel's, scissors, pens, fun tacks. To say it isn't a slippery slope is ridiculous. The only distinction between a kirpan and the rest of these things is that the other things have some utility to the general classroon, whereas the kirpan's only utility is in the hands of the Sikh kid, and this is the discrimination that is the problem.

Get off the bullshit about "its a weapon", because anything can be used as one.

[Hydraboss]

I wish one of you would at least come out and say "they are different than I am so they should have this kirpan thingy banned... and IF THEY DON'T LIKE OUR RULES THEY CAN GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!

at least then you would be being honest.

I did say it. Go back through the posts.

And the "kirpan thingy" debate is not because they're different than me, it's because of:

1) They are entitled to carry weapons into school.

2) Their religion is being given preferential treatment over other religions in this matter.

[geoffrey]

Don't get me wrong, the whole thing seems a little ridiculous. I have no clue how carrying something around gets you into heaven.

The fact of it is though the odds of the kirpan on this kid being used as a weapon is infinitesimal, and whatever argument you're going to make applies equally to all sorts of other things found in the school yard, think rocks, scalpel's, scissors, pens, fun tacks. To say it isn't a slippery slope is ridiculous. The only distinction between a kirpan and the rest of these things is that the other things have some utility to the general classroon, whereas the kirpan's only utility is in the hands of the Sikh kid, and this is the discrimination that is the problem.

Get off the bullshit about "its a weapon", because anything can be used as one.

My argument is that anything with the specific purpose of being a weapon should be banned from being carried in our society. There is no reason, we have police.

[Hydraboss]

Don't get me wrong, the whole thing seems a little ridiculous. I have no clue how carrying something around gets you into heaven.

The fact of it is though the odds of the kirpan on this kid being used as a weapon is infinitesimal, and whatever argument you're going to make applies equally to all sorts of other things found in the school yard, think rocks, scalpel's, scissors, pens, fun tacks. To say it isn't a slippery slope is ridiculous. The only distinction between a kirpan and the rest of these things is that the other things have some utility to the general classroon, whereas the kirpan's only utility is in the hands of the Sikh kid, and this is the discrimination that is the problem.

Get off the bullshit about "its a weapon", because anything can be used as one.

Discrimination my ass. That is the defense of anyone wanting special privelage for anything. And as for the "bullshit", the kirpan IS a weapon. Look up the definition. As for your comparison to rocks, scissors, pens, etc..., these were not designed to kill. Kirpan's were. That is why they're worn. So get off your "special rights for special immigrants" high horse, and think of the people of this nation...ALL the people.

Consider Chimera's recent post. I do remember having a pocket knife, but my kid would now be suspended or expelled for carrying it. But not a Sikh, never a Sikh. They'll just quote some religious belief and *POW*, now you can carry a sword, or a sword fish, or whatever you like. Don't dare oppose it or someone will call you racist. Go to their country and try this crap and see what happens.

[August1991]

Discrimination my ass. That is the defense of anyone wanting special privelage for anything. And as for the "bullshit", the kirpan IS a weapon. Look up the definition. As for your comparison to rocks, scissors, pens, etc..., these were not designed to kill. Kirpan's were. That is why they're worn. So get off your "special rights for special immigrants" high horse, and think of the people of this nation...ALL the people.

Consider Chimera's recent post. I do remember having a pocket knife, but my kid would now be suspended or expelled for carrying it. But not a Sikh, never a Sikh. They'll just quote some religious belief and *POW*, now you can carry a sword, or a sword fish, or whatever you like. Don't dare oppose it or someone will call you racist. Go to their country and try this crap and see what happens.

Well, at least the argument has apparently moved beyond "kirpans are dangerous" and gone to "kirpans are a symbol of violence".

There are knives and forks in school cafeterias, kids carry ball point pens; there are exacto knives in art class, baseball bats in sports and so on. On average, school buses kill about two kids every year in Canada.

A kirpan, on the other hand, is sheafed and sewn into clothing. It is not a Howitzer. There has been no case of anyone causing any harm in a school with a kirpan. The risk of potential harm is basically zero.

Furthermore, the Supreme Court did not say that schools must unequivocally allow kirpans. It merely said that a State school board cannot have a blanket policy forbidding them under all circumstances. School boards can impose conditions. The Montreal school board said today that the decision will have no effect on its current policy.

As to the "symbol of violence" argument, should we also ban crucifixes because they are a symbol of capital punishment?

Argus noted that there are several thousand Sikhs concerned. I heard the number of about 8000 in the various Montreal school boards. The reason we have a Supreme Court and a body of law forming a constitution is to protect a minority against the tyranny of the majority. This is just such a case.

The Supreme Court took the right decision.

Oh, and Hydraboss, Canada is a civilized country. And one good measure of "civilized" is how the majority treats the minority. Indeed, at the extreme, the minority is one person - an individual.

[Argus]

Has anyone ever been attacked with a Kirpan?

Uhm, yes.

[August1991]

Has anyone ever been attacked with a Kirpan?

Uhm, yes.

In a school? With a kirpan that met school regulations?

----

Look, we are talking about some kid wearing the equivalent of a cross around his neck. If you want to forbid all forms of religious symbols in State schools, then fine. Let's do it and get on with life. Then, if some people want to have a religious school where they can freely genuflect and carry bazookas to the Great God of Ordnance, they can organize (and pay for) their own schools.

IOW, if this thread is just a rant against religion in State schools, then say so.

[Hydraboss]

"The risk of potential harm is basically zero."

Untrue. This is what I do for a living. Health and safety, which includes risk assessment, etal. The risk factor involved here is high, not zero. The hazard potential is lethal.

Personally, I couldn't care less if a kirpan is a symbol of violence; it is a weapon.

"Then, if some people want to have a religious school where..." Exactly. Want to carry a weapon? Start a private school. However, if you are in the public system don't even think about it.

And yes, August, how a society treats a minority is one symbol of a civilized society. Yet no one ever gives a damn about the majority...you know, the rest of us.

How come when any average, non-minority tries to stand up for his rights in this country he gets labelled the "angry white male"? Why not just "angry"? Would society not gain further from integration of the "miniscule portion of the population" somewhat? Not completely. Not entirely. Somewhat. Welcome to our country, here are some rules you should know (and follow).

[wellandboy]

A kirpan, on the other hand, is sheafed and sewn into clothing. It is not a Howitzer. There has been no case of anyone causing any harm in a school with a kirpan. The risk of potential harm is basically zero.

Furthermore, the Supreme Court did not say that schools must unequivocally allow kirpans. It merely said that a State school board cannot have a blanket policy forbidding them under all circumstances. School boards can impose conditions. The Montreal school board said today that the decision will have no effect on its current policy.

As to the "symbol of violence" argument, should we also ban crucifixes because they are a symbol of capital punishment?

Argus noted that there are several thousand Sikhs concerned. I heard the number of about 8000 in the various Montreal school boards. The reason we have a Supreme Court and a body of law forming a constitution is to protect a minority against the tyranny of the majority. This is just such a case.

The Supreme Court took the right decision.

Oh, and Hydraboss, Canada is a civilized country. And one good measure of "civilized" is how the majority treats the minority. Indeed, at the extreme, the minority is one person - an individual.

Your right, Canada is a civilized country. As such the contempt the Sikh community has shown other towards Canadians is mind boggling. The contempt the Supreme Court has shown towards other Canadians is mind boggling. If the kirpan is a symbol, make it out of plastic or miniturize it down to a lapel pin.

Who protects Canadians from the tyranny of the minority?

[August1991]

How come when any average, non-minority tries to stand up for his rights in this country he gets labelled the "angry white male"? Why not just "angry"?

As such the contempt the Sikh community has shown other towards Canadians is mind boggling. The contempt the Supreme Court has shown towards other Canadians is mind boggling. If the kirpan is a symbol, make it out of plastic or miniturize it down to a lapel pin. Who protects Canadians from the tyranny of the minority?

[sarcasm]As Trudeau used to say, "But who speaks for Canada?"[/sarcasm]

On this point, Hydraboss and Well, in truth, I agree with you. But don't confuse Leftists defending the latest minority fad with a decision that has no practical effect other than letting people be.

----

Incidentally, on the Montreal radio I listened to today (R-C and the rest), the opinions were more or less like this thread.

I took a glance at the rabble.ca thread on this topic and was astonished at how quickly the threat of a banning was rolled out. Those people go nuclear fast. In doing so, they entirely miss what ordinary people are saying or thinking.

I like Maple Leaf Forum because it is the only English language forum in Canada (that I know of) where everyone can freely express a viewpoint and have it fairly considered. This thread is proof.

[Hydraboss]

August, I do not see this as a Left vs Right issue. Any issue can be polarized. I am "right", but I know many "lefts" that agree with my point of view at work. Suprisingly, quite a few are those that I constantly butt heads with politically. While I can respect your point, I do not have to agree with it. And yes, thanks to MLW, we can have this discussion.

p.s. - you are wrong

Na, na, na, naaaa, na.

[Shakeyhands]

A kirpan, on the other hand, is sheafed and sewn into clothing. It is not a Howitzer. There has been no case of anyone causing any harm in a school with a kirpan. The risk of potential harm is basically zero.

Furthermore, the Supreme Court did not say that schools must unequivocally allow kirpans. It merely said that a State school board cannot have a blanket policy forbidding them under all circumstances. School boards can impose conditions. The Montreal school board said today that the decision will have no effect on its current policy.

As to the "symbol of violence" argument, should we also ban crucifixes because they are a symbol of capital punishment?

Argus noted that there are several thousand Sikhs concerned. I heard the number of about 8000 in the various Montreal school boards. The reason we have a Supreme Court and a body of law forming a constitution is to protect a minority against the tyranny of the majority. This is just such a case.

The Supreme Court took the right decision.

Oh, and Hydraboss, Canada is a civilized country. And one good measure of "civilized" is how the majority treats the minority. Indeed, at the extreme, the minority is one person - an individual.

Your right, Canada is a civilized country. As such the contempt the Sikh community has shown other towards Canadians is mind boggling. The contempt the Supreme Court has shown towards other Canadians is mind boggling. If the kirpan is a symbol, make it out of plastic or miniturize it down to a lapel pin.

Who protects Canadians from the tyranny of the minority?

Thats the beauty of Canada... we protect the minority from the majority.

[cybercoma]

We don't ban POTENTIAL weapons. We ban weapons. Kirpans are knives DESIGNED FOR ASSAULT, and therefore are weapons. We ban weapons. So, you can't imagine any Sikh has EVER assaulted anyone in Canada with a knife. Are you serious? Really?

Scalpels are knives DESIGNED FOR LIFE SAVING OPERATIONS. And yet, we are still not allowed to carry them into schools with risking being charged with carrying a weapon.

And answer a question asked earlier in this thread:

Would you have a problem with my kid carrying a Glock 9mm if my "recognized religion" said he should? Even though guns..ALL GUNS...are designed to kill? Would you let my kid hang out in the playground with your kid? I'll bet not.

There must be a heirarchy of law in every country. Public safety is paramount over religious right. And it damn well should be.

At least it used to be...

You are completely ignorant and nothing I, or anyone else says, will change your mind.

The kirpan is closer to a crucifix necklace than it is a knife designed for assault.

I imagine murder is against the religion of Sikh's just as it is anyone else, not to mention it's illegal. Just because their religious symbol is a knife doesn't mean they're going to be going around murdering children in the playground.

I think you need to put your melodramatic ignorant grandstanding aside and really try to understand the situation and the implications of banning these things. This is religious persecution and should not be tolerated by anyone. These kripans are NOT being used to assault and murder people, they're being carried as a sign of faith and if you're too ignorant to understand that then God bless you, because I'm ashamed that you don't have the intellectual capacity to stand up for a fundamental right.

Public safety was when Sikh's were told they absolutely had to wear hard hats at work instead of their turbans. The only time a kirpan is a danger is when the person carrying it decides to use it as a weapon, simply carrying it as a sign of religious devotion is not a threat to public safety.

[Hydraboss]

Ignorant? Really....

Do you have the base intelligence to READ what a kirpan is, you fool? Of course murder is against their religion as it is ours. Can I carry a handgun wherever I want because I am Christian and don't believe in murder? No.

Closer to a crucifix? Again; you fool. One is a knife, one is not.

And for the record, the turban-banning issue was not public safety related. It, again, was a religion bucking the system so that it's believers did not have to follow the OHS Regulations. I was directly involved in a number of battles in Alberta over that one. Learn facts about the subject before you begin "your melodramatic ignorant grandstanding".

[cybercoma]

The short of it is that these kirpans are not being carried for the purpose of being used in a crime. They're being carried as a religious symbol.

The danger of someone being murdered with a kirpan is about as high as someone being strangled with a rosary.

This thread is disgustingly intolerant and this is one of the things I can never agree with "the right" on.

[cybercoma]

Ignorant? Really....

Do you have the base intelligence to READ what a kirpan is, you fool? Of course murder is against their religion as it is ours. Can I carry a handgun wherever I want because I am Christian and don't believe in murder? No.

Closer to a crucifix? Again; you fool. One is a knife, one is not.

And for the record, the turban-banning issue was not public safety related. It, again, was a religion bucking the system so that it's believers did not have to follow the OHS Regulations. I was directly involved in a number of battles in Alberta over that one. Learn facts about the subject before you begin "your melodramatic ignorant grandstanding".

It's a dagger. Your point?

It's not being carried to be used in the capacity that you're suggesting. Once again, let me know when Sikh's in Canada are using their Kirpans to commit violent crimes in our schools. It doesn't happen, because that's not what they're for. I'm very sorry that you're too bigoted, ignorant and intolerant to understand that.

[cybercoma]

feel free to read the following link if you give a crap to actually understand the significance of the kirpan to the Sikh's, instead of being ignorant bigots:

http://www.indolink.com/displayArticleS.php?id=022405023333

[GostHacked]

No kirpans in school.

No turbans in the RCMP. <rant>

Canadian laws and values. If you want to wear your turban, you are not going to be an RCMP, the hat is symbolic of the history of the RCMP. wearing your turban degrades and dishonours your commitment to the RCMP.

And those things should be taken out of schools. Instead of saying .. well they MAY hurt someone. Why take the chance.

When in Rome do what the Romans do. When in Canada, do what we do. I was really upset they allowed the turbans in the RCMP. That is NOT, I repeat NOT discrimination. Tradition of a long standing Canadian Iconic establishment. There are not many things that you can claim to be Canadian. Why ruin what we have left.

</rant>