SCC allows kirpans

[gerryhatrick]

Do you honestly think the majority of people in our secular society could ever relate to an orthodox sikh with those big turbans, ridiculous beards, costumes and knives? They are curious relics of another age from a land where goat herding is still considered high technology.

Keep bringing it on. This is an interesting insight into the ignorance and intollerance that exists - sadly - in our society.

I have Sikh neighbours. The old man has a beard (looks good, not "ridiculous" at all) and wears robe-like dress. His turban is not all that big, really. Are you basing your opinion on the Johnny Carson turban perhaps? And of course the man will have a kurpin on his person.

My neighbour is a member of modern day Canadian society. Get used to it.

And yes, I can relate to him very well. He is a stand-up guy and always friendly.

It's interesting you call Sikh Canadians "curious relics". That confirms that you don't understand them at all. Calling them "curious" explicitely implies you know little about them. What you don't understand you are more likely to fear and hate.

[politika]

What else do you carry a knife on you for? religious or not you dotn carry somthing on you liek that without using it.

You get the stupid post of the year award. Hands down.

Go get educated on the Kirpan. Then come back and try again.

THe Kirpan is a knife you ignornat fool, your post arnt anyhting special either almost somthing to laugh at you can hardly state your oppinions with out backing them up. A kirpan is a knife and can be used in a assault mos tof these people in this forum will back me up, and if you got your head out of your ass you would know that.

Just answer me this would you want your kid in a school where a kid with a KNIFE was sitting next to him? DOn;t even tell me you would. Anyways wtf arms their kid?

Apparently the bandwidth on the Sikh Canada homepage has been excede by everyone look at that article I posted earlier in this thread.

The comment earlier about the crusader sword isn't invalid. The Sikh's wear their Kirpan as a symbol of victory for freedom of their religion, victory gained through military means. So why not wear my 6 foot broadsword, symbol of my religions victory for freedom?

Why? Because its ridiculous! Just like these Sihks.

The Sikh's do not believe in Canadian law, it says so in their guidelines, that they must put their religion first. And removal of a Kirpan is like an attack on religion so they can defend with lethal force if anyone tries to take it away.

If these people don't want to be Canadians like the rest of us, and leave their weapons at home, they can go move to some place that accepts weapons carried around all the time.

Seriously, Canada is no place for weapons to be carried on all people at all times. How ridiculous. Either have them denounce their views on carrying weapons at all times or deport.

But whats sad about it is this is Canada the land of where minorities always get their way and the whites get pushed aside. Lets face today theyf orget to mention one hting about the charter of rights: Its only their to protect minorities.

[politika]

Is our society and culture so fragile that a few turbans will destroy it? I used to think like you when I was younger. Then I met a few Sikhs while I was in the army. They wore their turbans, but it did not make them any less of a Canadian soldier. It is actually the idea of the multicultural society that Trudeau envisioned, and I now agree with. These Sikhs have integrated into our society, while still being allowed to practice their own religious beliefs. If you take away their freedoms of religion, they will resent our society, and never integrate, they will always be outsiders. IMHO, that is more dangerous to our society than a million turbans in our forces.

Oh boo hoo they will feel like outsiders. They should be lucky we let them come to this country because most of them come from evil tyranical murdering governments, so when they come to Canada they should shut up and be happy they are aloud to vote and live in a free country.

One word: Assimilation

[politika]

Do you honestly think the majority of people in our secular society could ever relate to an orthodox sikh with those big turbans, ridiculous beards, costumes and knives? They are curious relics of another age from a land where goat herding is still considered high technology.

Keep bringing it on. This is an interesting insight into the ignorance and intollerance that exists - sadly - in our society.

I have Sikh neighbours. The old man has a beard (looks good, not "ridiculous" at all) and wears robe-like dress. His turban is not all that big, really. Are you basing your opinion on the Johnny Carson turban perhaps? And of course the man will have a kurpin on his person.

My neighbour is a member of modern day Canadian society. Get used to it.

And yes, I can relate to him very well. He is a stand-up guy and always friendly.

It's interesting you call Sikh Canadians "curious relics". That confirms that you don't understand them at all. Calling them "curious" explicitely implies you know little about them. What you don't understand you are more likely to fear and hate.

Just give it up calling people un educated because they disagree with you isn't going to win you this afgument considering your among the only few in this forum who think this kid should carry a weapon on him.

By the way a real member of modern day Canadian socieity isn't a weird man with a robe and a turbin walking down the streets it's a well groomed, clean, well dressed man or woman, thats modern day soceity in in the 21st century go look it up, than come back and tlak to me about Canadian socieity.

[geoffrey]

Because its ridiculous! Just like these Sihks.

Sihks aren't ridiculous. They are proud and noble and worthy Canadians.

Roll out some more hate and intollerance....this is fun.

If these people don't want to be Canadians like the rest of us,

I think you should re-consider. I don't see a person with intollerant and hateful attitudes like your own to be truely Canadian.

I am Canadian. I don't carry a weapon with me.

Thats my argument here, if you need to carry a weapon, go elsewhere. We don't need vigilanties or people that take 'defense' into their own hands with knives. Learn Karate or something. I don't want to see weapons on my streets. Period.

you know, one thing that I am not positive on is this, is the Kirpan sharpened or is it a dull blank so to speak?

anyone know?

It should be sharpened. The minimum length is supposed to be 11 inches for religious reasons because it has to be an effective killing weapon. Thats what the religious Sikhs say anyway. Obviously this kid is using a mini-Kirpan, but thats beyond the point.

We don't need to ban them from schools, we need to ban them from society.

I've asked a couple of Sikhs about this issue and have been ensured that children are taught that improper usage of the kirpan would be sacreligious and would not be tolerated. Sikh children are taught that the kirpan is a symbol and as such has no other actual use. The day I see a Sikh child peeling an apple with a kirpan I will start to worry for my childrens safety.

Doesn't change the fact that they are taught to use it to defend themselves and others. First time some guy pushes them in the schoolyard, is it ok for them to defend themselves and slash him? I don't think so. But a 10 year old kid generally doesn't have a sense of good judgement and responsible action.

--

Again, I'll sum up with this because the defenders of public weaponary haven't answered me yet.

1) In a country like Canada with a good police force, why must you carry a weapon to defend yourself?

2) The Kirpan is a symbol of religious victory through military means. Much like a sword would be to a Christian. Why shouldn't I wear a sword? Their religion is about 500 years out of date.

3) Can a 10 or 11 year old kid be trusted with a lethal weapon on the playground?

[wellandboy]

Oh yes it is. It's intollerant and hateful also. But most importantly, it's extremely ignorant also. Many of those people wearing turbans ARE CANADIAN.

If you don't like Canada and what it is I invite you to move someplace else. My Canada is multi-cultural. That doesn't mean we allow immigrants and expect them to conform and become "Canadian" in some shape or form after we've given them citizenship. It means they ARE CANADIAN after they get thier citizenship and we are HAPPY to see them keep all of who they are when they arrived in this nation.

By your logic, We should all be living in teepees on the plains and eating bannock. Or living in igloos? Or does you "while in Rome do as Romans do" mantra only apply to immigrants starting now, with YOU being an example of a "Roman"?

It makes me proud that the RCMP allows turbans to be worn. It made that institution richer, and if you can't see that you're missing part of what it is to be a Canadian.

All Canadians are protected by Charter in matters of religious beliefs, that all but the most wanton bigot, can accept without difficulty. By your standard there is no limit by which Canada can address issues of public safety if it potentially infringes on an individuals right to carry a lethal weapon. Where in your multi cultural utopia would you propose we as a society can draw the line?

[Biblio Bibuli]

I am Canadian. I don't carry a weapon with me.

With all of the strenuous sports you told us you do (lugeing, skeleton, mountain climbing, giant slalom etc.), your whole body must be a lethal weapon.

[Chimera]

Oh boo hoo they will feel like outsiders. They should be lucky we let them come to this country because most of them come from evil tyranical murdering governments, so when they come to Canada they should shut up and be happy they are aloud to vote and live in a free country.

One word: Assimilation

You see that's the thing about our charter of rights. Either everybody has them or no one has them. If you are allowed to force these people to assimilate, what happens when someone bigger and stronger (or more populous) comes along and forces you to change your ways?

I will assume you oppose the language laws in Quebec. The funny thing is, what you are recommending is pretty much the same thing. You feel your society is threatened by this display of religion and diversification (english language in PQ). The only way you know how to fight back against it is to ban it. Again, I don't think Canadian values are going to fail simply because of Kirpans and turbans. And if it is so fragile, is it worth saving?

It should be sharpened. The minimum length is supposed to be 11 inches for religious reasons because it has to be an effective killing weapon. Thats what the religious Sikhs say anyway. Obviously this kid is using a mini-Kirpan, but thats beyond the point.

We don't need to ban them from schools, we need to ban them from society.

So.....What was your take on the proposed handgun ban again??

[geoffrey]

I am Canadian. I don't carry a weapon with me.

With all of the strenuous sports you told us you do (lugeing, skeleton, mountain climbing, giant slalom etc.), your whole body must be a lethal weapon.

Oh my!!

I've never said I've done giant slalom! I wish I was good at alpine skiing but in reality, my skills aren't that hardcore from that aspect! I'd be more likely to do giant slalom on my ass than on skis. Luge and skeleton I did one weekend as part of a bet/olympic inspiration, I've only done it once... never been so scared in my life I'll admit.

I'm more from the endurance side of athletics, I'm no weapon. I could run away forever though, up and down mountains!

Actually, when hiking in the deep backcountry, I've debated at times carrying a firearm when the bears are out (also with cougars but I figure they are so fast I'd be dead before I loaded a shot). Now, if your using your Kirpan to defend against bears, all the power to you. But last time I checked, bears are not rampant in the city, and police have a reasonable response time if one did appear.

If your a few days from police or ranger response, then carrying a weapon is justified. If your wandering down the streets of Calgary or Toronto or any city, you don't need a weapon.

[geoffrey]

It should be sharpened. The minimum length is supposed to be 11 inches for religious reasons because it has to be an effective killing weapon. Thats what the religious Sikhs say anyway. Obviously this kid is using a mini-Kirpan, but thats beyond the point.

We don't need to ban them from schools, we need to ban them from society.

So.....What was your take on the proposed handgun ban again??

My take on the handgun ban is that is been done. We already had one since the 1930's.

People owning Kirpans is of no issue to me. People carrying them at any time outside of their property, is a major issue with me. Thats what I meant by my comment.

I am completely against having handguns or any weapon carried at anytime, unless theres a chance a bear will bite your ass on the way to the outhouse (and I still don't agree with having a handgun in this purpose). Which last time I checked, is not an issue in cities. I've never seen a Sikh out in the backcountry, but if he was out there, then I'd love to see him with the Kirpan. It'd be kind of neat to see him fend off some wild aggressor with those skills.

There is no reasonable excuse for carrying a weapon in a city, town, or otherwise un-wild area! Ever!

[cybercoma]

Apparently the bandwidth on the Sikh Canada homepage has been excede by everyone look at that article I posted earlier in this thread.

The comment earlier about the crusader sword isn't invalid. The Sikh's wear their Kirpan as a symbol of victory for freedom of their religion, victory gained through military means. So why not wear my 6 foot broadsword, symbol of my religions victory for freedom?

Why? Because its ridiculous! Just like these Sihks.

The Sikh's do not believe in Canadian law, it says so in their guidelines, that they must put their religion first. And removal of a Kirpan is like an attack on religion so they can defend with lethal force if anyone tries to take it away.

If these people don't want to be Canadians like the rest of us, and leave their weapons at home, they can go move to some place that accepts weapons carried around all the time.

Seriously, Canada is no place for weapons to be carried on all people at all times. How ridiculous. Either have them denounce their views on carrying weapons at all times or deport.

I love how everyone's playing a fun game of "jump to conclusions."

"The Sikh's wear their Kirpan as a symbol," not as a weapon. Kirpa means "benevolence" and aan means "dignity." It's reminder to fight against oppression, not necessarily by slaughtering everyone with their Kirpans.

You don't wear your crusader's sword because your religion hasn't made that part of its culture. You do however symbolic eat the flesh and drink the blood of your saviour. Which could be regarded as more barbaric than someone carrying a small dagger to remind them to stand up against those who would oppress them or anyone else.

The Kirpan is one of the 5 K's of being a Sikh and they're right, asking them to remove it is an attack on their religion. From here you go off on a wild tangent about them striking back with lethal force. This is ridiculous, since we're obviously discussing how they fought back and that was by using the court system of Canada. Odd how a culture that you would have everyone believe "doesn't believe in the laws of Canada," completely abided by them to have their religion protected.

If Sikh's didn't believe in Canadian law, we wouldn't even be discussing the Supreme Court's ruling.

If Sikh's used lethal force at their whim, we'd have a lot more dead Canadians at the hands of Sikh's wielding Kirpans.

And once again you revert back to your ignorant western thinking that these knives are carried to be used as weapons at the whim of some lunatic Sikh.

I really don't understand why more people don't see this as being ignorant, bigoted and intolerant.

[cybercoma]

Because its ridiculous! Just like these Sihks.

Sihks aren't ridiculous. They are proud and noble and worthy Canadians.

Roll out some more hate and intollerance....this is fun.

If these people don't want to be Canadians like the rest of us,

I think you should re-consider. I don't see a person with intollerant and hateful attitudes like your own to be truely Canadian.

All these quotes remind me of people saying, "if black people would act more white they'd be respected."

[cybercoma]

Because its ridiculous! Just like these Sihks.

Sihks aren't ridiculous. They are proud and noble and worthy Canadians.

Roll out some more hate and intollerance....this is fun.

Do you honestly think the majority of people in our secular society could ever relate to an orthodox sikh with those big turbans, ridiculous beards, costumes and knives? They are curious relics of another age from a land where goat herding is still considered high technology.

So let's piss on them because we don't understand them. Good idea.

[cybercoma]

I've asked a couple of Sikhs about this issue and have been ensured that children are taught that improper usage of the kirpan would be sacreligious and would not be tolerated. Sikh children are taught that the kirpan is a symbol and as such has no other actual use. The day I see a Sikh child peeling an apple with a kirpan I will start to worry for my childrens safety.

It's unfortunate this post went unnoticed because it hits the nail right on the head.

[cybercoma]

Just give it up calling people un educated because they disagree with you isn't going to win you this afgument considering your among the only few in this forum who think this kid should carry a weapon on him.

By the way a real member of modern day Canadian socieity isn't a weird man with a robe and a turbin walking down the streets it's a well groomed, clean, well dressed man or woman, thats modern day soceity in in the 21st century go look it up, than come back and tlak to me about Canadian socieity.

I'll PM you my address, please mail me the "Official Canadian Dress Code."

[cybercoma]

And everyone's saying, "well they might use it if their life is in danger."

No crap they'd use it if their life was in danger.....and they'd be completely justified to do so as would anyone in Canada.

[geoffrey]

And everyone's saying, "well they might use it if their life is in danger."

No crap they'd use it if their life was in danger.....and they'd be completely justified to do so as would anyone in Canada.

Except I'm not allowed to carry a weapon. They are!

No need for weapons to be carried in cities in Canada. Thats the bottom line. They can practice their religion until it impedes on the well being of others. And public safety is compromised with people with daggers walking the streets. No weapons in our streets!

[justcrowing]

Apparently the bandwidth on the Sikh Canada homepage has been excede by everyone look at that article I posted earlier in this thread.

The comment earlier about the crusader sword isn't invalid. The Sikh's wear their Kirpan as a symbol of victory for freedom of their religion, victory gained through military means. So why not wear my 6 foot broadsword, symbol of my religions victory for freedom?

Why? Because its ridiculous! Just like these Sihks.

The Sikh's do not believe in Canadian law, it says so in their guidelines, that they must put their religion first. And removal of a Kirpan is like an attack on religion so they can defend with lethal force if anyone tries to take it away.

If these people don't want to be Canadians like the rest of us, and leave their weapons at home, they can go move to some place that accepts weapons carried around all the time.

Seriously, Canada is no place for weapons to be carried on all people at all times. How ridiculous. Either have them denounce their views on carrying weapons at all times or deport.

I love how everyone's playing a fun game of "jump to conclusions."

"The Sikh's wear their Kirpan as a symbol," not as a weapon. Kirpa means "benevolence" and aan means "dignity." It's reminder to fight against oppression, not necessarily by slaughtering everyone with their Kirpans.

You don't wear your crusader's sword because your religion hasn't made that part of its culture. You do however symbolic eat the flesh and drink the blood of your saviour. Which could be regarded as more barbaric than someone carrying a small dagger to remind them to stand up against those who would oppress them or anyone else.

The Kirpan is one of the 5 K's of being a Sikh and they're right, asking them to remove it is an attack on their religion. From here you go off on a wild tangent about them striking back with lethal force. This is ridiculous, since we're obviously discussing how they fought back and that was by using the court system of Canada. Odd how a culture that you would have everyone believe "doesn't believe in the laws of Canada," completely abided by them to have their religion protected.

If Sikh's didn't believe in Canadian law, we wouldn't even be discussing the Supreme Court's ruling.

If Sikh's used lethal force at their whim, we'd have a lot more dead Canadians at the hands of Sikh's wielding Kirpans.

And once again you revert back to your ignorant western thinking that these knives are carried to be used as weapons at the whim of some lunatic Sikh.

I really don't understand why more people don't see this as being ignorant, bigoted and intolerant.

Is this being ignorant, bigoted and intolerant western thinking ?.....

If kirpans are a symbol then explain why their own airlines prohibit kirpans - do they know something we don't? ....

" Air India and Pakistani International Airlines specifically prohibit kirpans on board their airplanes. British Airways, US Air and American Airlines have policies prohibiting any bladed items on board, which policies are interpreted to include kirpans.

The court policy makes no exception for kirpans as they have the potential to inflict damage, notwithstanding their religious nature. "

violent incidents regarding kirpans

Evidence was led by the respondent with respect to a number of incidents where it appears that kirpans were indeed used as offensive weapons, including evidence with respect to the hijacking of two aircraft in the mid-1980's. In addition, testimony was given by Cpl. McConnell, who was the file co-ordinator with respect to a major disturbance at the Guru Nanak Gurdwara in Surrey, British Columbia, on January 11, 1997. The disturbance evidently arose as a result of a disagreement between two factions in the congregation with respect to an issue of religious doctrine. Cpl. McConnell was present at the scene and described what occurred there. In addition, he provided two videotapes of the disturbance.

I was witness to the Jan. ll/97 incident and women and men were injured from the use of a kirpan.

Dr. Singh is an Amrit-dhari Sikh, one who has held positions of considerable responsibility within the Sikh community, and who is clearly a devout adherent to the Sikh faith. In Dr. Singh's view, wearing a miniature kirpan pin is sufficient to discharge his religious obligations, and is a practice followed by many devout Amrit-dhari Sikh.

[cybercoma]

And everyone's saying, "well they might use it if their life is in danger."

No crap they'd use it if their life was in danger.....and they'd be completely justified to do so as would anyone in Canada.

Except I'm not allowed to carry a weapon. They are!

No need for weapons to be carried in cities in Canada. Thats the bottom line. They can practice their religion until it impedes on the well being of others. And public safety is compromised with people with daggers walking the streets. No weapons in our streets!

Yes you are.

[cybercoma]

All Sikh's must therefore be terrorists. Thanks for summing that up.

[geoffrey]

And everyone's saying, "well they might use it if their life is in danger."

No crap they'd use it if their life was in danger.....and they'd be completely justified to do so as would anyone in Canada.

Except I'm not allowed to carry a weapon. They are!

No need for weapons to be carried in cities in Canada. Thats the bottom line. They can practice their religion until it impedes on the well being of others. And public safety is compromised with people with daggers walking the streets. No weapons in our streets!

Yes you are.

You can't just carry a large dagger or sword down the streets.

If I, being non-Sihk, carried a dagger into a school or on downtown streets, I'd definitely be arrested ASAP. Why the double standard? Religion shouldn't give people special consideration.

[wellandboy]

If Sikh's used lethal force at their whim, we'd have a lot more dead Canadians at the hands of Sikh's wielding Kirpans.

The lunatic fringe of Sikhdom found that placing bombs in a 747 is a far more effective way of murdering Canadians.

[cybercoma]

And everyone's saying, "well they might use it if their life is in danger."

No crap they'd use it if their life was in danger.....and they'd be completely justified to do so as would anyone in Canada.

Except I'm not allowed to carry a weapon. They are!

No need for weapons to be carried in cities in Canada. Thats the bottom line. They can practice their religion until it impedes on the well being of others. And public safety is compromised with people with daggers walking the streets. No weapons in our streets!

Yes you are.

You can't just carry a large dagger or sword down the streets.

If I, being non-Sihk, carried a dagger into a school or on downtown streets, I'd definitely be arrested ASAP. Why the double standard? Religion shouldn't give people special consideration.

Walk down the street with a dagger in a sheath, sewn into a pouch, sewn onto your clothing. Let me know how long it takes the cops to stop you.

When you're done that, walk into a school and see how long it takes to get arrested.

After you realize that cops don't arbitrarily arrest people, take the knife and start slashing people randomly as you're walking down the street. Time how long it takes the cops to come find you then.

[cybercoma]

If Sikh's used lethal force at their whim, we'd have a lot more dead Canadians at the hands of Sikh's wielding Kirpans.

The lunatic fringe of Sikhdom found that placing bombs in a 747 is a far more effective way of murdering Canadians.

Maybe fertilizer should be banned. In the wrong hands it can kill a lot of people (see: Oklahoma City).

[GostHacked]

Your right, Canada is a civilized country. As such the contempt the Sikh community has shown other towards Canadians is mind boggling. The contempt the Supreme Court has shown towards other Canadians is mind boggling. If the kirpan is a symbol, make it out of plastic or miniturize it down to a lapel pin.

Who protects Canadians from the tyranny of the minority?

Yes but can a cross around the neck kill somone as a knife can?

If the SCC had upheld the absolute ban on Kirpans, then even these would not be allowed. Would that be just? The decision still does not prevent schools from banning them on a case by case basis, it just means they are not banned outright.

No kirpans in school.

No turbans in the RCMP. <rant>

Canadian laws and values. If you want to wear your turban, you are not going to be an RCMP, the hat is symbolic of the history of the RCMP. wearing your turban degrades and dishonours your commitment to the RCMP.

And those things should be taken out of schools. Instead of saying .. well they MAY hurt someone. Why take the chance.

When in Rome do what the Romans do. When in Canada, do what we do. I was really upset they allowed the turbans in the RCMP. That is NOT, I repeat NOT discrimination. Tradition of a long standing Canadian Iconic establishment. There are not many things that you can claim to be Canadian. Why ruin what we have left.

</rant>

Is our society and culture so fragile that a few turbans will destroy it? I used to think like you when I was younger. Then I met a few Sikhs while I was in the army. They wore their turbans, but it did not make them any less of a Canadian soldier. It is actually the idea of the multicultural society that Trudeau envisioned, and I now agree with. These Sikhs have integrated into our society, while still being allowed to practice their own religious beliefs. If you take away their freedoms of religion, they will resent our society, and never integrate, they will always be outsiders. IMHO, that is more dangerous to our society than a million turbans in our forces.

You might not be familiar with the saying 'you give an inch, they take a mile'. Do not sell your Canadian values short and bow to the religious pressure. the RCMP is purley a Candian Icon. It is all about the hat. Again, you want to be an RCMP officer, wear the hat, if you must have the turban on, the hat goes on top. I will respect the religion when they respect values of a certain historic Canadian tradition.

Also when you are on the job, your religion is second. If you put your religion first, then the job is simply not for you.