SCC allows kirpans

[Leafless]

Has this country gone bananas?

The Surpreme Court of Canada overturned a Quebec court of Appeals has overturned a decision that had barred a teenager from wearing a dagger known as a kirpan to school.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

A kirpan is a ceremonial dagger and is a symbol of POWER and FREEDOM OF SPIRIT.

A Sikh may use it in SELF-DEFENSE or to protect a person in need. Some Sikhs choose to learn the art of GATKA. This is a martial art devised by the Sikh Gurus that uses a circular movement to effectively SWING a SWORD.

This does not sound like a religious ornament to me and I would choose not to have my children continually exposed to a potentially violent weapon.

Looking armed does not sit well with me.

What's your take?

[Wilber]

Has this country gone bananas?

The Surpreme Court of Canada overturned a Quebec court of Appeals has overturned a decision that had barred a teenager from wearing a dagger known as a kirpan to school.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

A kirpan is a ceremonial dagger and is a symbol of POWER and FREEDOM OF SPIRIT.

A Sikh may use it in SELF-DEFENSE or to protect a person in need. Some Sikhs choose to learn the art of GATKA. This is a martial art devised by the Sikh Gurus that uses a circular movement to effectively SWING a SWORD.

This does not sound like a religious ornament to me and I would choose not to have my children continually exposed to a potentially violent weapon.

Looking armed does not sit well with me.

What's your take?

Ask Army Guy and BubberMiley. I wouldn't want to offend anyone.

[Hicksey]

IMO ... in public schools, symbols of religious importance have no place.

[geoffrey]

IMO ... in public schools, symbols of religious importance have no place.

Agreed. And I'm a religious person. I wouldn't want to see crosses or anything in public schools. I feel we need to take the path France has set and ban all religious gear in schools.

This particular case however, goes beyond just a religious symbol. We are going to have elementary kids with daggers wandering our schools. I'm not an expert on childhood psychology, but common sense tells me that a young kid with a knife playing with his playmates is generally not the most safe situation.

I feel like I have the right to carry a sword from the crusades as a symbol of my religious freedom. The same precedent should allow that. How ridiculous!

[Hydraboss]

And if it was a religious handgun, then what? Would it still be allowed? Quit this bullshit right now! The SCC should stop being idiots, and overturn their own decision. These are CANADIAN schools, with CANADIAN kids (ethnic background is unimportant). OUR laws should reflect the needs for protection of the majority, not a miniscule percentage of the population that thinks they are head and shoulders more important. You come to this country, you follow the laws. OUR laws take precidence over OTHER laws. Not the other way around. You are welcome to your beliefs, and you will not be persecuted for them in any way. But you do not have the right to endanger my kids, no matter what your religion says. Period.

I am so sick of this crap.

[Shakeyhands]

I see no harm in it at all.... Especially when wrapped in the rule that it must be covered and not visible. Whats the big deal????

[Hydraboss]

I see no harm in it at all.... Especially when wrapped in the rule that it must be covered and not visible. Whats the big deal????

Concealed weapon. If a student walked into a school with the "kitchen knife" wrapped up and under his shirt, he would be criminally charged with carrying a concealed weapon. Unless, of course, he could point to his religious "right" to carry it.

It is a big deal.

[geoffrey]

I see no harm in it at all.... Especially when wrapped in the rule that it must be covered and not visible. Whats the big deal????

Concealed weapon. If a student walked into a school with the "kitchen knife" wrapped up and under his shirt, he would be criminally charged with carrying a concealed weapon. Unless, of course, he could point to his religious "right" to carry it.

It is a big deal.

It goes beyond this too. Would you trust a deadly weapon in the hands of a 6 or 7 year old? I argue they don't have the mental faculties to make a sound judgement of when to use it. Kids playfight all the time, not to mention really fight in schoolyards right now. Do we really want them to carry knives too?!

[fellowtraveller]

No problem with anybody wearing expressions of their religion to a public school.

But definitely there is a problem with anybody bringing a weapon to school.

Next up: Rastafarian kids smoking weed in the gym as a form of religious expression.

[Hydraboss]

No problem with anybody wearing expressions of their religion to a public school.

But definitely there is a problem with anybody bringing a weapon to school.

Next up: Rastafarian kids smoking weed in the gym as a form of religious expression.

Bingo! Exactly.

To the best of my knowledge, no school kid has ever been stabbed with a crucifix.

[geoffrey]

No problem with anybody wearing expressions of their religion to a public school.

But definitely there is a problem with anybody bringing a weapon to school.

Next up: Rastafarian kids smoking weed in the gym as a form of religious expression.

Bingo! Exactly.

To the best of my knowledge, no school kid has ever been stabbed with a crucifix.

I still disagree with having relgious symbols in a secular school.

I went to Catholic and Christian education places up until high school, which are obviously non-secular. If you want to practice your religion at school, you go to a religious school.

Otherwise, if you want to go to a secular school, lets keep them secular.

[justcrowing]

Those kirpans are not only a religious symbol but also used as a weapon. A few years back when there was dissention amongst the Temperates and Moderates, at least half a dozen people were injured from the use of the kirpan. I know cuz I lived in "the war zone" and witnessed it happening.

Kirpans have no place in a public area such as schools, hospitals, government buildings, etc.

[justcrowing]

Has this country gone bananas?

The Surpreme Court of Canada overturned a Quebec court of Appeals has overturned a decision that had barred a teenager from wearing a dagger known as a kirpan to school.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

A kirpan is a ceremonial dagger and is a symbol of POWER and FREEDOM OF SPIRIT.

A Sikh may use it in SELF-DEFENSE or to protect a person in need. Some Sikhs choose to learn the art of GATKA. This is a martial art devised by the Sikh Gurus that uses a circular movement to effectively SWING a SWORD.

This does not sound like a religious ornament to me and I would choose not to have my children continually exposed to a potentially violent weapon.

Looking armed does not sit well with me.

What's your take?

Gone bananas is putting it mildly; some good insight here as to where we are heading and why.

http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/

The West: Set To Auto Destruct

By corroding the West’s moral, spiritual, economic and cultural foundation, the Left has wrought incalculable damage on our civilization. The fact that this assault has come from within makes it all the more astounding. The Left is a wholly western child, born and raised within its confines. It is as though the Left somehow embodies the West’s reaction against the West. It is as though under some suicidal impulse the West has turned against itself with a self-destructive intent

The Left’s successes have been largely due to its takeover of the two main channels for the dissemination of knowledge and information – the media and academia. Careful to avoid positive portrayal of the West in almost any context, they abound in aspersions and criticism. In the process, the Left has devised an ingenious and effective mode of censorship to further its ends. It is called political correctness.

[geoffrey]

Has this country gone bananas?

The Surpreme Court of Canada overturned a Quebec court of Appeals has overturned a decision that had barred a teenager from wearing a dagger known as a kirpan to school.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

A kirpan is a ceremonial dagger and is a symbol of POWER and FREEDOM OF SPIRIT.

A Sikh may use it in SELF-DEFENSE or to protect a person in need. Some Sikhs choose to learn the art of GATKA. This is a martial art devised by the Sikh Gurus that uses a circular movement to effectively SWING a SWORD.

This does not sound like a religious ornament to me and I would choose not to have my children continually exposed to a potentially violent weapon.

Looking armed does not sit well with me.

What's your take?

Gone bananas is putting it mildly; some good insight here as to where we are heading and why.

http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/

The West: Set To Auto Destruct

By corroding the West’s moral, spiritual, economic and cultural foundation, the Left has wrought incalculable damage on our civilization. The fact that this assault has come from within makes it all the more astounding. The Left is a wholly western child, born and raised within its confines. It is as though the Left somehow embodies the West’s reaction against the West. It is as though under some suicidal impulse the West has turned against itself with a self-destructive intent

The Left’s successes have been largely due to its takeover of the two main channels for the dissemination of knowledge and information – the media and academia. Careful to avoid positive portrayal of the West in almost any context, they abound in aspersions and criticism. In the process, the Left has devised an ingenious and effective mode of censorship to further its ends. It is called political correctness.

While I agree with smalldeadanimals's opinion there, I don't see this as a moral issue.

This is strictly an issue of public safety.

[fixer1]

I am all for weapons to hunt and sport shooting even archery, but for the Supreme Court to rule as they have is nothing less then astounding. I do not care about anyones religion when they are in our public schools they are just like every other boy and girls there. I would fight to make it so they are equal, but this ruling makes some higher then others, when it comes to rights. I am not sure I would ever let a child saty in a school that allowed this no matter the reason. Religion does not have any place in our public school systems period. Too bad we can not pound that into the SC justices who have made this ruling.

Now I am probably going to wonder why they can have this right, but other children have been expelled for having a table knife to butter buns and bread, at school. This now makes Sikth children to have more rights then other children and that is just wrong. If I am caught with a kirpan concealled in my clothing I would be charged will having a concealled weapon. Even if I say I am a new follower of the sikth religion.

Well so much for the Supreme Court having advance minds and thinkers, because I can only say that the Jusytices in this case have now shown they can make very stupid decisions that can not be reasoned with any normal interpitation of the laws of our country. I guess we will need parliament to sort this out once and for all. No you see why the not withstanding clause may be a very important tool, as judges too can be brain dead some times.

[justcrowing]

Has this country gone bananas?

The Surpreme Court of Canada overturned a Quebec court of Appeals has overturned a decision that had barred a teenager from wearing a dagger known as a kirpan to school.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

A kirpan is a ceremonial dagger and is a symbol of POWER and FREEDOM OF SPIRIT.

A Sikh may use it in SELF-DEFENSE or to protect a person in need. Some Sikhs choose to learn the art of GATKA. This is a martial art devised by the Sikh Gurus that uses a circular movement to effectively SWING a SWORD.

This does not sound like a religious ornament to me and I would choose not to have my children continually exposed to a potentially violent weapon.

Looking armed does not sit well with me.

What's your take?

Gone bananas is putting it mildly; some good insight here as to where we are heading and why.

http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/

The West: Set To Auto Destruct

By corroding the West’s moral, spiritual, economic and cultural foundation, the Left has wrought incalculable damage on our civilization. The fact that this assault has come from within makes it all the more astounding. The Left is a wholly western child, born and raised within its confines. It is as though the Left somehow embodies the West’s reaction against the West. It is as though under some suicidal impulse the West has turned against itself with a self-destructive intent

The Left’s successes have been largely due to its takeover of the two main channels for the dissemination of knowledge and information – the media and academia. Careful to avoid positive portrayal of the West in almost any context, they abound in aspersions and criticism. In the process, the Left has devised an ingenious and effective mode of censorship to further its ends. It is called political correctness.

While I agree with smalldeadanimals's opinion there, I don't see this as a moral issue.

This is strictly an issue of public safety.

I agree completely it is public safety. But if you read the article on moral issue you will see why the kirpan is now allowed. You are pretty smart and I think you can figure it out.

[Durgan]

Yesterday I disagreed with Harper's (CPC) policy of vetting candidates for appointment to the Supreme Court of Canada. Today I am in total agreement with his policy. Silent appointments by previous governments have now stacked the court with individuals who put ideals ahead of common sense. The Supreme Court of Canada is completely out of touch with the people of the country. The Supreme Court decision has brought disgrace to the court.

The Supreme Court of Canada made a ridiculous decision. No religion has untrammeled licence to practice rites that do harm or have the potential to do harm to others.

No kirpin has been used in an attack in any school, but knives are usually banned for the reason that they have the potential to cause harm. A kirpin or daggar is the same type of instrument in spite of the religious overtones.

It is conceivable that a defence will be 'it is my religion."

There are religions in this world that practice female genital mutilation. Following the logic of the Supreme Court of Canada, I presume if this practice if brought before them the vote will be 8 to 0 in favour, with the explanation that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms allows freedom of religion.

What is the definition of a religion? As far as I know this has never been defined.

In a secular society I suggest "Freedom of Religion" means practices that do no harm to another being, and does not infringe on the space of others.

A Sikh, carrying a kirpin, will never be allowed to pass through security in any airport in the world.

Parliament has to act on this issue. The Supreme Court decision is too rediculous to be allowed to be the law of the land.

I just read feedback in the Globe and Mail about 250 responses (The most responses they have received on any subject) that mostly condemns the Supreme Court decision.

Here is one comment by a Sikh.

Bob Crier from Toronto, Canada writes: I am devout, practicing Sikh and I do not agree with this decision. I am also ashamed of the fact that there are hardly any Sikhs posting comments against this decision. We do not need to carry our religious symbols around to prove our faith either to ourselves or to others. We must change the old ideas with the changing realities of the time. Canada has opened up its doors to us and allowed us the freedom to practice our own religion. The least we owe to this country is to try to understand the very ideologies that make it accept people from all over the world and respect their values. Because, if we look at those ideologies very carefully, we will find that we must move away from symbolism and try to accept other people's values if they are logical and are for the betterment of the society. How does allowing Kirpans make Canada a better society? How is this helping Sikh’s integration into this society? How is this helping other new immigrants coming into this country? What examples are we setting? As a Sikh, I am ashamed of this decision. The people who pushed for this decision have committed an act that is not in the interests of the Canadian society and certainly not in line with the Sikh way of thinking. Shame on us!!

Durgan.

[August1991]

Before interpreting this issue according to whatever political opinions you might hold, it might be worth considering it solely in practical terms.

Has any child ever been injured or even threatened by a kirpan in a school yard? What is the chance that such injury or even threat of an injury could happen in the future?

The cost of allowing kirpans is non-existent. The benefit must exist since some kids want them. On the simple merits of the case, the Supreme Court took the right decision.

You'll notice too that the Supreme Court did not say in all cases, all types of religious paraphenalia should be permitted. The court simply said that an outright ban is too extreme.

----

The Quebec press has noticed that the Quebec Court of Appeals (3 judges) voted unanimously in favour of the ban. The Supreme Court overruled that decision 8-0. Subtext: In an independent Quebec, what would the policy be.

This is an issue because we have State schools. A private school is free to forbid or explicitly allow kirpans. IOW, a case could be made that the decision concerning kirpans should be left up to individual schools, State or otherwise, which is the case I believe with school uniforms.

[Hydraboss]

The SCC decision is such that this WEAPON is not to be catagorized as a weapon. They have also denounced the total ban of this WEAPON as illegal. Therefore, there cannot be a defence by any school, public or private, to the banning of this WEAPON.

Uniforms would not be taken on the same case merits because the ban of "street clothes" does not pose a threat as a weapon. But, I dare any private school to forbid TURBANS!!!!!

Can you say "good-bye school administrators"????????

[IPSC STORM]

Well this just takes the cake.

But it does open an interesting door.

My daughter got a nice 9mm Glock G17 for Chirstmas this year.

She was also a vicitim of a sexual assault at her school.

I think I will start a new religion of Glockism. Where by all adherants must wear a blessed plastic framed pistol to protect themselves and other innocents!

Naturally her Glock will remain holstered and concealed at all times!

[Shakeyhands]

can someone please direct us to a link where a kirpan has been used in any other manner than a ceremonial one? you guys are going off the deep end on this one... no, you are.

[geoffrey]

can someone please direct us to a link where a kirpan has been used in any other manner than a ceremonial one? you guys are going off the deep end on this one... no, you are.

If little kids in school haven't been allowed previously to carry them, then you'd think there would have been violence.

It comes down to this. In Canada, we don't allow people to carry weapons in school. Go to wherever they allow such things if you want to carry a knife into a school.

You come here to accept our culture, we don't accept every culture that arrives here.

[August1991]

If little kids in school haven't been allowed previously to carry them, then you'd think there would have been violence.

Apparently kids have been carrying them to school since that is why the school went to the trouble of forbidding it.

And Geoff, you (and others on this forum) have avoided the key question:

Does anyone have any evidence of any incident from any school anywhere in which a kirpan was used to injure someone or threaten someone?

Without such evidence, and as a purely practical question, the Supreme Court's decision seems perfectly justified.

[seabee]

Being a touch masochistic, let me start with saying that I agree with the interpretation of the Charter of Rights the SCC has come up with.

What I disagree with is that Charter, which has led the judges into this legally inevitable interpretation. The problem is not the judges, it is: how do we go about changing the Charter, now that it is part of the Consitution? Clearly, it goes much too far.

Would it be illegal to take a photo of kirpan-wearing kid, add the text: "this child carries a concealed object that is shaped like a knife and can be used as one", and then post it all over the school?

[Riverwind]

Without such evidence, and as a purely practical question, the Supreme Court's decision seems perfectly justified.

I am curious what devout Sikhs do when they board a plane? I assume that airport secuirty doesn't give a damn about their religious sensitivities.