Failure of the political system in America

[myata]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

Aside from the UNconservative aspects of Trump's ideology, and the cult-like aspects

Cult like is the clue here. He will do anything to give his lies even a visibility of success, and he doesn't care about the consequences, said it and showed on multiple occasions. In a tipping point like this, it just can be enough to send the world over its edge. And the dictators are waiting. They learned how to rule forever, honed and tuned the methods. Not in the lightest of dreams will it be just another election.

Well at least this time, we knew.

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, myata said:

Just words cannot say it though. Rome thought it was infallible and said so, many times. Only the reality can: the test of it, and the time.

How is America like Rome ?  The insular confidence, the reluctant to make wholesale changes in the face of obvious structural problems, the decadence of its ruling class and its leaders ?  Probably, sure.

But there's no equivalent of foreign hordes waiting to come in and occupy America.  There just isn't.  Empires can die and collapse from within too.  And Decline, Collapse and Fall doesn't mean utter dissolution and death either - the UK, France, Russia, and Japan declined and remain as nations and global leaders to a lesser extent.

1 minute ago, myata said:

1. Cult like is the clue here. He will do anything to give his lies even a visibility of success, and he doesn't care about the consequences, said it and showed on multiple occasions.

2. In a tipping point like this, it just can be enough to send the world over its edge. And the dictators are waiting. They learned how to rule forever, honed and tuned the methods. Not in the lightest of dreams will it be just another election.

Well at least this time, we knew.

1. But as National points out, an ostensible "people's party" that didn't help the workers drove people to MAGA.  Maybe not all the workers but a key demographic.
2. They don't have the resources to "take" America.  

[myata]

32 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. They don't have the resources to "take" America. 

America stuck in its little corner, deep into its own problems with no exit in sight would be a big, hard problem for the free world. It would be a 10x, 100 times more difficult problem than the last time. Just words will do nothing to shoo it away. The dictators would see right through them, and laugh.

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, myata said:

America stuck in its little corner, deep into its own problems with no exit in sight would be a big, hard problem for the free world. It would be a 10x, 100 times more difficult problem than the last time. Just words will do nothing to shoo it away. The dictators would see right through them, and laugh.

Well, now you're deep into it.  Europe for one is taking steps to take military matters into their own hands.  The new NATO members alone will boost the continental bloc enough to keep Russia at bay, given that Russia couldn't manage to invade Ukraine on its own.

Iran, North Korea are isolated despots that could follow the path of Libya and Iraq from authoritarian despots to broken un-nations perhaps eventually to functioning nations on some level.

China has its own problems which are like the opposite of America's.  America has a sick democracy and China has a sick autocracy.  Maybe that's evidence of the strength of the middle path who knows.  China might invade Taiwan under Trump's watch but I don't see them making inroads into America even if it's divided.

What would a divided and broken America realistically look like ?  States seceding ?  Non-cooperation with Federal laws ?  Mass migration ?  The people who would have the most to lose in such a scenario would be the elites and especially Trump's supporters.  Unless we're talking about utter chaos and dissolution.  In which case, you could still cobble together a nation of like-minded states and perhaps even provinces.

That's almost unthinkably terrible, but even so there would be a way forward.  Perhaps the model would be the cycle of state dissolutions that re-constitutions that happened in post-Roman Europe until WW1/2.

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  I don't know you can say I missed this.  In fact, you can infer it from my assessment of the spoils of democracy's success.
2. Sure, as long as you allow for the fact that Trump is at the centre of the circle of elites in America: an ostensible billionaire from New York, with his own sexual foibles, who hobnobs with celebrity and power - the Clintons went to his wedding for example - and whose behaviour builds on the excesses you cite.  it doesn't take anything away from Trump's own successes or political acumen to say this.
3. Power to what end ?  What is going to come of it and how ?  The narrative that government bureaucrats and/or immigrants or other countries are robbing the American worker of prosperity doesn't quite fly, given that almost the entirety of productivity gains have gone to the so-called elite over the past 50 years.
4. I don't think I will.  Aside from the UNconservative aspects of Trump's ideology, and the cult-like aspects as well as the closed-mindedness to obscene statements and behaviour... I am very concerned that his team will under estimate the risks of making huge changes with unanticipated results.  

Edit: To add - I was open-minded as to the possibilities of Trump's button-mashing actually helping the people last time around, so my concerns in #4 are NOT political but pragmatic.  And the risks I talk about are for Americans, Canadians and the world.  If anyone asserts that large radical change is not at risk at this point, they are mistaken and it has nothing to do with politics.

Huh...oddly enough I find this attitude of yours classic conservatism. I miss classic conservatism. Meh...maybe again someday...but today...

It's been more than obvious that the elite have a plan that will result in the disappearance of something conservatives still value...hopefully even you...Liberty.

Both sides of my ancestry came here for exactly that. Yours too probably. And although Trump has been a welcome part of that elite, he also declared his opposition to them years ago. From over regulation to war, Trump is the only horse in the race who speaks of what's best for his nation. Not for Central America...nor Isreal...nor Ukraine. He does not lie about the climate breakout. He knows that the only thing in the way of prosperity is this...icky "new normal" that has produced nothing but war and general hardship for everyone on the planet...let alone the USA.

So...the choice is...

An Addled old fool who's as sharp as a butterknife? Who's term has meant tens of millions of illegals flooding the nation...and killing citizens in the grossest of warped exhibitions, war, surrender, and financial ruin for those not lucky enough to be "elite".

Or...a boor who blisters his way along...upsets the apple cart...and actually produces positive results for "We The People"?

The Americans choose in November...we choose a year later.

The EU is choosing too. "We The People" have had enough of..."the elite" and their push to consolidate power.

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

1. Huh...oddly enough I find this attitude of yours classic conservatism. I miss classic conservatism. Meh...maybe again someday...but today...

2. It's been more than obvious that the elite have a plan that will result in the disappearance of something conservatives still value...hopefully even you...Liberty.

3. Both sides of my ancestry came here for exactly that. Yours too probably.

 

1. You're starting to get me.  🥰
2. I will agree as far as this: as society "changes" ( I won't say progresses ) there are forces in technology, sociology, culture etc. that cause us to question the freedoms and anti-freedoms we have.  Technology/media control/censorhip, healthcare/drug control, economic boosters and restraints... these are things we had 50 and 100 years ago.  Cigarettes were unregulated, marijuana was pursued as a threat.  Radio and television was monitored and control by the government.  Tarrifs and heavy unionization forced prosperity to be generally lower but redistributed more.  And then eventually it all changed.  So the elites will try to control things in a different way today.
3. My ancestors came here mostly to escape poverty and to pursue opportunity.

The rest of your post posits one side or the other as the answer, but the point of the thread is that both sides of the question have lead us to where we are.    My contention is that neither side of the American divide have shown a willingness or a means to share prosperity broadly.

[myata]

46 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

What would a divided and broken America realistically look like ?  States seceding ?  Non-cooperation with Federal laws ?  Mass migration ?  The people who would have the most to lose in such a scenario would be the elites and especially Trump's supporters.  Unless we're talking about utter chaos and dissolution.  In which case, you could still cobble together a nation of like-minded states and perhaps even provinces

Think if someone told you that we'll see this: of the two candidates one is openly cheering for the enemies of freedom, and the other, cognitively incapacitated. Two out of two, the perfect score: no options below it, impossible. Could you have guessed it? It can look like anything. Justice broken, states heading on all sorts of populist trips anybody's guess just as good. Seeing it, watching it live would be the only way to tell what can and cannot happen.

[myata]

What is a political party? A great majority of it sees their leaders, current or potential only in the friendly controlled settings. They cannot know what is real, how could they. How does the leader handle and tackle real, present problems all the way to critical and existential? Does he go to take nap in the middle of a developing crisis, sending the time itself on hold? So they rely on the establishment for this critical knowledge and information. And it failed, the party and the country, clearly. There's no way they couldn't have known, for months if not years. But they don't, probably cannot: just past it - take it seriously. Whatever happens to the States, even the world itself we'll still be here, getting our paycheck and talking about nothing. It will figure itself out, somehow. Nothing bad can happen. A political shell completely detached from the reality and in a free flight. Several decades of relative calm and prosperity and look. We just can't seem to keep in our attention what matters most, what is of critical importance for us, our own future. Wow and wow. Humans in the world, it never fails to amaze.

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. You're starting to get me.  🥰
2. I will agree as far as this: as society "changes" ( I won't say progresses ) there are forces in technology, sociology, culture etc. that cause us to question the freedoms and anti-freedoms we have.  Technology/media control/censorhip, healthcare/drug control, economic boosters and restraints... these are things we had 50 and 100 years ago.  Cigarettes were unregulated, marijuana was pursued as a threat.  Radio and television was monitored and control by the government.  Tarrifs and heavy unionization forced prosperity to be generally lower but redistributed more.  And then eventually it all changed.  So the elites will try to control things in a different way today.
3. My ancestors came here mostly to escape poverty and to pursue opportunity.

The rest of your post posits one side or the other as the answer, but the point of the thread is that both sides of the question have lead us to where we are.    My contention is that neither side of the American divide have shown a willingness or a means to share prosperity broadly.

You're being rather disingenuous here. We all see the level of censorship and blatant stupidity.

Online media has been usurped by government. Hence Musk bought Twitter. This greenie crap is an outright lie and the results are nothing short of a disaster. The US border is wide open and illegals are now raping and murdering  little girls. Inflation is destroying people. We are on the verge of 2 massive wars.

This needs to end now.

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

1. You're being rather disingenuous here. We all see the level of censorship and blatant stupidity.

2. Online media has been usurped by government.

1. I talked about censorship.  I didn't talk about stupidity though.

2. Barely.  TV and Radio were under stricter control.

The rest of your post is back to the political question, so I will, again, let that be.

[Nationalist]

2 hours ago, myata said:

What is a political party? A great majority of it sees their leaders, current or potential only in the friendly controlled settings. They cannot know what is real, how could they. How does the leader handle and tackle real, present problems all the way to critical and existential? Does he go to take nap in the middle of a developing crisis, sending the time itself on hold? So they rely on the establishment for this critical knowledge and information. And it failed, the party and the country, clearly. There's no way they couldn't have known, for months if not years. But they don't, probably cannot: just past it - take it seriously. Whatever happens to the States, even the world itself we'll still be here, getting our paycheck and talking about nothing. It will figure itself out, somehow. Nothing bad can happen. A political shell completely detached from the reality and in a free flight. Several decades of relative calm and prosperity and look. We just can't seem to keep in our attention what matters most, what is of critical importance for us, our own future. Wow and wow. Humans in the world, it never fails to amaze.

I swear...you make less sense than a child.

Edited June 29, 2024 by Nationalist

[Nationalist]

42 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I talked about censorship.  I didn't talk about stupidity though.

2. Barely.  TV and Radio were under stricter control.

The rest of your post is back to the political question, so I will, again, let that be.

Mike...it's not "barely". The censorship swayed the last presidential election over Hunter's damnable laptop.

And it all does happen to be political. Even this silly "climate crisis", as we've both discovered.

[Michael Hardner]

17 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

1. The censorship swayed the last presidential election over Hunter's damnable laptop.

2. And it all does happen to be political. 

1. I grew up in the era of Radio and TV.  This is the wild west in comparison.  There simply was no way for a foreign agency to distribute mass lies in the past.

2. The paradox is if you approach the problem with a political angle, you won't get it done to the satisfaction of the centre.

[Legato]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I grew up in the era of Radio and TV.  This is the wild west in comparison.  There simply was no way for a foreign agency to distribute mass lies in the past.

2. The paradox is if you approach the problem with a political angle, you won't get it done to the satisfaction of the centre.

2. Which begs a rhetorical question, does a centre still exist.

[Fluffypants]

7 minutes ago, Legato said:

2. Which begs a rhetorical question, does a centre still exist.

We do but liberals call them the extreme right.

Seriously they call JK Rowling who was a hero to the LBG for making Dumbledore gay a far right extremist because she doesn't believe boys can be girls.

Conservatives have been moving to the left compromising on things that would of been unthinkable to them a decade earlier, but the left has gone so far to the left they think conservatives are far right when they believe the same things liberals believed only 10-20 years ago.

 

[Michael Hardner]

14 minutes ago, Legato said:

 Which begs a rhetorical question, does a centre still exist.

A majority of Canadians sympathized and disagreed with the convoy.  That told me that nuanced thought exists, whether you agree with the opinion or not.

4 minutes ago, Fluffypants said:

... liberals call ... JK Rowling ... a far right extremist ...

That's a semantic failure.  They can't be liberals.

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I grew up in the era of Radio and TV.  This is the wild west in comparison.  There simply was no way for a foreign agency to distribute mass lies in the past.

2. The paradox is if you approach the problem with a political angle, you won't get it done to the satisfaction of the centre.

1. Me too and I agree. The internet gave all sorts of "gifts". However...I doubt anyone is gonna do anything about APAC...or Russia. BTW...our agencies invented media messaging.

2. I've said this to you before I believe but...conservatives did not start this. Liberals did. As long as they insist on behaving like petulant children, they will find a wall of conservatives who will oppose them at every step. We can talk about centering things once the ship is turned upright and floating again.

Edited June 29, 2024 by Nationalist

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

1. Me too and I agree. The internet gave all sorts of "gifts". However...I doubt anyone is gonna do anything about APAC...or Russia. BTW...our agencies invented media messaging.

2. I've said this to you before I believe but...conservatives did not start this.

1. Yes we invented it.  Of course, disinformation is pretty age old also.

2. The point of the thread is that both sides are complicit.  A political culture can't stand on one leg.  You won't achieve balance by listening to one side only.

 

[Nationalist]

25 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Yes we invented it.  Of course, disinformation is pretty age old also.

2. The point of the thread is that both sides are complicit.  A political culture can't stand on one leg.  You won't achieve balance by listening to one side only.

 

1. Indeed it is. So perhaps we should stop all the silly accusations.

2. Both sides are complicit...but they are also both going through a "cleansing". While the democrats may have started distancing themselves from the woke crowd, Republicans are dising their moderates. Strengthening their resolve. Preparing to right the ship.

It'll be at least 1 term before the political center becomes viable again.

Meh...ya gits wut ya pays fer...

[myata]

So in the bottom line: Joe has to prove now that he is in full mental capacity. That isn't conditional.

If he does that, then it's a sad, sour choice made by the political system in a freefall right before our eyes, just look at the quality of the candidates; and we didn't care to notice, dust and maintain it as the founding fathers knew, and warned us.

But it's a clear one still: an imperfect, frail individual versus an open admirer of authoritarian, fascist thugs. I can't fathom what's going on with him, but he just can't stop spilling his deep admiration for them - and attachment, or whatever nature? This is right before our eyes, we can admit it, or run away from it, but there's simply no way we couldn't have known.

[Nationalist]

20 minutes ago, myata said:

So in the bottom line: Joe has to prove now that he is in full mental capacity. That isn't conditional.

If he does that, then it's a sad, sour choice made by the political system in a freefall right before our eyes, just look at the quality of the candidates; and we didn't care to notice, dust and maintain it as the founding fathers knew, and warned us.

But it's a clear one still: an imperfect, frail individual versus an open admirer of authoritarian, fascist thugs. I can't fathom what's going on with him, but he just can't stop spilling his deep admiration for them - and attachment, or whatever nature? This is right before our eyes, we can admit it, or run away from it, but there's simply no way we couldn't have known.

Lol...we're coming myata. Be afraid. Run and hide.

Lol...

[myata]

Running away from the reality can solve no problems. Nobody with a sound mind would try to find hope there. At least this time, we knew.

[myata]

You can see a liar by the way they immediately switch attention from questions they couldn't answer. Yes: he just can't stop spilling his admiration for aggressive fascist thugs. He wants to, and probably would give them all they want, and that would invite them come for more. And more. We know very well how this ended before. We have memory and sound mind.

Again? Business as usual? Just another election?