User Posted May 28, 2024 Author Report Posted May 28, 2024 15 minutes ago, Black Dog said: If the war aim is to eliminate Hamas, then Israel has already lost. This war has been a recruiting bonanza for Hamas which is rapidly replenishing its ranks and reoccupying areas Israel claims to have cleaned them out of. This is such a dumb argument. Hamas was already indoctrinating children in schools in Gaza to hate Jews and kill Israelis... but yeah, your genius argument is that Hamas should be left in power to kill Israelis and Jews, because if you kill Hamas then they will keep trying to kill Israelis and Jews. 🙄 Quote
Black Dog Posted May 28, 2024 Report Posted May 28, 2024 Just now, User said: This is such a dumb argument. Hamas was already indoctrinating children in schools in Gaza to hate Jews and kill Israelis... but yeah, your genius argument is that Hamas should be left in power to kill Israelis and Jews, because if you kill Hamas then they will keep trying to kill Israelis and Jews. 🙄 Where'd I make that argument, dummy? Quote
User Posted May 28, 2024 Author Report Posted May 28, 2024 9 minutes ago, Black Dog said: Do you think it was a mistake or not? What was a mistake? Be precise. 9 minutes ago, Black Dog said: In a speech to Israel’s... So, where did he say it was a mistake? In this quote he said there was a tragic mistake, and they would investigate. He did not say the strike was a tragic mistake that they were responsible for as you tried to claim. 10 minutes ago, Black Dog said: Kinda hard to square this frankly incoherent explanation with the admission by Bibi. Not at all. 12 minutes ago, Black Dog said: You're completely divorced from reality, but I guess that's what you get when your only source of info is IDF press releases. No, I am just not a Hamas supporter like you are. 13 minutes ago, Black Dog said: I haven't moved on, I recognize there's no point arguing with a deranged person who thinks "damaged" means "it has some rubble on the roof". You tried to claim 70% were "destroyed" and that is not true. That included "damaged" It doesn't matter what I think "damaged" means, it is that damaged != destroyed as you tried to claim. 4 minutes ago, Black Dog said: Where'd I make that argument, dummy? Calling me names doesn't do anything. Please explain specifically which part of this you think I am wrong on. Quote
Black Dog Posted May 28, 2024 Report Posted May 28, 2024 Just now, User said: What was a mistake? Be precise. So, where did he say it was a mistake? In this quote he said there was a tragic mistake, and they would investigate. He did not say the strike was a tragic mistake that they were responsible for as you tried to claim. Not at all. Oh so he must have been referring to some different mistake. Get real. 2 minutes ago, User said: So they used extremely tiny bombs to minimize civilian casualties but somehow those tiny bombs caused secondary explosions 200 metres away. Right, sure. You will fall for anything. Quote No, I am just not a Hamas supporter like you are. Lol pathetic. Quote You tried to claim 70% were "destroyed" and that is not true. That included "damaged" It doesn't matter what I think "damaged" means, it is that damaged != destroyed as you tried to claim. Yeah it's this kind of empty rhetorical nitpicking that shows you're just trying to obfuscate the larger point that such widespread damage and destruction is wholly inconsistent with your claim that this is being waged with precision. Quote
User Posted May 28, 2024 Author Report Posted May 28, 2024 57 minutes ago, Black Dog said: Oh so he must have been referring to some different mistake. Get real. Yes, exactly. They have said they don't know why/how their strike could have resulted in what occurred, so they are investigating. The only thing he admitted to was there was a tragic mistake, they just don't know what yet. 58 minutes ago, Black Dog said: So they used extremely tiny bombs to minimize civilian casualties but somehow those tiny bombs caused secondary explosions 200 metres away. Right, sure. You will fall for anything. Did you even listen? There was a fire that spread. 58 minutes ago, Black Dog said: Lol pathetic. No, pathetic is your support for Hamas here. 58 minutes ago, Black Dog said: Yeah it's this kind of empty rhetorical nitpicking that shows you're just trying to obfuscate the larger point that such widespread damage and destruction is wholly inconsistent with your claim that this is being waged with precision. This isn't rhetorical nitpicking. You presented a fact that was wrong. Precision can be defined many ways, the fact that there have been so few deaths is proof of their precision. Quote
ironstone Posted May 29, 2024 Report Posted May 29, 2024 This is an interesting clip from 1978 with a young Benjamin Netanyahu. Quote "Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it." Thomas Sowell
Army Guy Posted June 6, 2024 Report Posted June 6, 2024 On 5/20/2024 at 11:28 AM, CITIZEN_2015 said: This is fair. Both sides have committed crimes against humanity, killing defenseless women and children. Not only the two leaders but those who carried out the crimes should also be put on trail and if guilty then punished severely. Hamas crimes was much more brutal. They targeted purposely the defenseless civilian population of Israel and raped women and brutally murdered defenseless civilians. Your making some accusations without any direct proof...Name one conflict anywhere around the globe in any time period that defenseless women and children were not killed in....or better yet provide a source that proves Israel deliberately targeted civilians and committed crimes against humanity...according to the Geneva conventions or international law... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted June 6, 2024 Report Posted June 6, 2024 On 5/20/2024 at 1:02 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said: If they really want to avoid civilian suffering then Israel must stop bombing indiscriminately and randomly and instead send their soldiers in to fight Hamas terrorists one by one. This will of course cause a lot more casualties on Israel side but they wish to minimize their own casualty at the expense of other civilians. Please provide a source that states israel is bombing indiscriminately and randomly....And when did this tactic become the norm....do you know of the rules of engagement for Israelis aircraft, or it's soldiers...you do know that they drop leaflets first, then phone every active cell phone in the area, warning them an airstrike is pending...you do know they also announce it through PA speakers prior to the attack...I'm curious what other measures do you want them to take... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted June 6, 2024 Report Posted June 6, 2024 On 5/23/2024 at 6:28 PM, Black Dog said: No. I'm saying that in the course of the Hamas attack a significant number of Israelis were killed by friendly fire. Israel depends on gullible dupes like you to support their campaign of indiscriminate murder and ethnic cleansing. Your not saying much, your expressing opinion without sources that's exactly what it is.... opinion....State facts with sources the forum rules have not changed... Palestine also depends on people like you to swallow the kool aid to bring in global opinion on their side...what's sad is your spewing all of this in a public forum to show just how gullible you are , and from a terrorist organization to boot...You people seem to think war or conflict is conducted in a sterile environment were only soldiers die...when the exact opposite is true...this conflict is no different than all the rest, except this one is against a terrorist organization that palestine supports whole heartedly...that would include people like you who are these public forums supporting Hamas terrorist actions... I'm starting to think your over on this forum now because the other forum asked you to leave, or they are done talking to you on this very topic ...... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Black Dog Posted June 6, 2024 Report Posted June 6, 2024 7 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Your not saying much, your expressing opinion without sources that's exactly what it is.... opinion....State facts with sources the forum rules have not changed... Palestine also depends on people like you to swallow the kool aid to bring in global opinion on their side...what's sad is your spewing all of this in a public forum to show just how gullible you are , and from a terrorist organization to boot...You people seem to think war or conflict is conducted in a sterile environment were only soldiers die...when the exact opposite is true...this conflict is no different than all the rest, except this one is against a terrorist organization that palestine supports whole heartedly...that would include people like you who are these public forums supporting Hamas terrorist actions... I'd like you to offer one single actual example of me "supporting Hamas terrorist actions" or stick it up your ass. with all your ellipses, boomer. Quote I'm starting to think your over on this forum now because the other forum asked you to leave, or they are done talking to you on this very topic ...... Literally posted there this morning. Whomp whomp. Quote
Army Guy Posted June 6, 2024 Report Posted June 6, 2024 58 minutes ago, Black Dog said: I'd like you to offer one single actual example of me "supporting Hamas terrorist actions" or stick it up your ass. with all your ellipses, boomer. Literally posted there this morning. Whomp whomp. There are but two sides of the equation here, on one side you have Israel, which you have continually criticized, lied, or made sh*t up about in order to cast them in a bad light, pretty much followed Hamas propaganda to the letter or atleast lead readers here down that very path....Then there is the Hamas side in which your posts seem to support or agree with everything Hamas has put out on the subject..most of your facts and figures are nothing more than hamas propaganda or stuff you have made up....with no sources to back any of it up...Not sure what to tell you but that is all on you, the readers here have judged you based on what you've posted nothing more... I try not to stick anything up my as$, it's not really a boomer thing, more your generation i'm afraid. And i'm sure your as popular over there as you are here, you use to be a solid poster with a good head on their shoulders, now you nothing more than a puppet for a terrorist organization...that yells and screams to be heard, and when not doing that calling people names....seems to be what you've become... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
CITIZEN_2015 Posted June 6, 2024 Report Posted June 6, 2024 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: Your making some accusations without any direct proof...Name one conflict anywhere around the globe in any time period that defenseless women and children were not killed in....or better yet provide a source that proves Israel deliberately targeted civilians and committed crimes against humanity...according to the Geneva conventions or international law... Never mind all previous 8 months but just today they bombed a school run by UN and killed 45 people. 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: Please provide a source that states israel is bombing indiscriminately and randomly....And when did this tactic become the norm....do you know of the rules of engagement for Israelis aircraft, or it's soldiers...you do know that they drop leaflets first, then phone every active cell phone in the area, warning them an airstrike is pending...you do know they also announce it through PA speakers prior to the attack...I'm curious what other measures do you want them to take... Again a most recent example is just today. They bombed a school tun by United Nations. Quote
Black Dog Posted June 6, 2024 Report Posted June 6, 2024 55 minutes ago, Army Guy said: There are but two sides of the equation here, on one side you have Israel, which you have continually criticized, lied, or made sh*t up about in order to cast them in a bad light, I have done none of that. Quote pretty much followed Hamas propaganda to the letter or atleast lead readers here down that very path....Then there is the Hamas side in which your posts seem to support or agree with everything Hamas has put out on the subject..most of your facts and figures are nothing more than hamas propaganda or stuff you have made up....with no sources to back any of it up...Not sure what to tell you but that is all on you, the readers here have judged you based on what you've posted nothing more... Like what, be specific. Quote And i'm sure your as popular over there as you are here, you use to be a solid poster with a good head on their shoulders, now you nothing more than a puppet for a terrorist organization...that yells and screams to be heard, and when not doing that calling people names....seems to be what you've become... I'm not sure what you're talking about, I've always opposed the Zionist project and called the stupes out. The problem is they've gotten so much stupider post-Trump. Quote
Army Guy Posted June 7, 2024 Report Posted June 7, 2024 4 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: Never mind all previous 8 months but just today they bombed a school run by UN and killed 45 people. Again a most recent example is just today. They bombed a school tun by United Nations. I've explain that over and over, any building that has special status like hospitals, schools, religious buildings if the enemy is using them to fight out of or store weapons or munitions they loss that special status, and become a legitimate target...it does not matter if it was run by the UN itself those are the rules of war, written by the UN , inter national courts... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted June 7, 2024 Report Posted June 7, 2024 4 hours ago, Black Dog said: I have done none of that. Like what, be specific. I'm not sure what you're talking about, I've always opposed the Zionist project and called the stupes out. The problem is they've gotten so much stupider post-Trump. Quote There are but two sides of the equation here, on one side you have Israel, which you have continually criticized, lied, or made sh*t up about in order to cast them in a bad light, 1. I keep hearing these kinds of claims being made but I have yet to see any actual evidence, we're just supposed to take Israel's word for these things, which is worth zilch. Israel routinely targets civilians (including journalists and aid workers) and lies about it. This is your opinion, you have not shown any evidence to back up this statement...in fact Israel has been forth coming to claiming mistakes made in combat... 2. I'm not sure what you're talking about, I've always opposed the Zionist project and called the stupes out. The problem is they've gotten so much stupider post-Trump. Not sure what you meant by Zionist project but i'm sure it means your not fond of the jewish nation or it's people , i may be wrong b ut judging from what you've already posted i think i got it right. 3...So they used extremely tiny bombs to minimize civilian casualties but somehow those tiny bombs caused secondary explosions 200 metres away. Right, sure. You will fall for anything. You must be familiar with this type of munition to judge its effects on the ground...perhaps you can tells us it's effect on the ground such as fragmentation radius, or explosive radius, or what kind of munition it is...I think you made that up... 4. Imagine writing this and thinking you're on the side of the good guys. Imagine writing this and not understanding what goes on in conflicts...Civilians make up the vast majority of deaths and casualties in any conflict...not just Jewish ones, EVERY conflict...This is the majority of civilians mistakes they don't know dick when it comes to conflict and assumes that when someone pulls the trigger that bullet/ bomb/ missile only kills other soldiers....it does not... 5...Or there was the time they used "precision guided munitions" to kill every single member of the World Central Kitchen relief team in a succession of strikes. Mistakes happen all the time, in conflict, again that is hard to believe , because in your mind dropping a bomb from 100 feet doing almost 1500 miles an hour what could go wrong...it is common to have blue on blue or blue on green accidents, it is even more common to hit something that was not meant to be hit...your kitchen staff is an example..If your in a combat zone, for any reasons odds are you will experience what it is like to be targeted...it does not matter if your working for red cross, or some other organization...one way or another your going to experience war close up and personal... 6... thin levelling an entire apartment complex full of people because a team of people are launching shitty homemade rockets or mortars is a direct contravention of the principle of proportionality. Again this is your opinion, according to the inter national laws and the Geneva convention, proportionality is up to the the on scene commander or persons making that call, it can be challenged in the courts, or UN but there needs to be proof, which is what your missing in your statement...do you know how many insurgents were in the building or what munitions were stored there, or was there a high value target present...there are hundreds of reasons why they use the munitions they use, or why they use them...which you have not taken into account, but assuming... 7..... don't have to imagine. The good guys don't hide behind women and children like you support and encourage. When Hamas hides behind them, they turn them into military targets. You encourage this cowardly behavior because you sit here expecting Israel not to fight a war against Hamas because they hide behind their people. Quote That's not how it works you jackoff. Thats exactly how it works, if the commander on scene decides taking out a building and the insurgents in side out weighs the cost of civilian lives then that is a legit call. the commander makes these decisions in a few seconds, and if he is losing men the call will come quickly and is final...hence why they invented collateral damage....it should be noted that all commanders/ soldiers are responsible for their decisions to their commanders and to the law...Afghanistan seen many high value targets eliminated during massive wedding ceremonies, again the target was worth more than the rest of the lives taken that day... 8.... Quote This is not an Israeli source, although I could spam this thread with plenty of pictures and videos they have provided during this war, too... https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools UNRWA has already been disqualified from being a reliably source of anything due to most of it's ranks involved in other areas of Hamas including taking part in the massacre on oct 7, hiding hostages taking hostages....But also the main source of Hamas education of their children, it is responsible for teaching poison and hate to ensure terrorist for a life time... 9.... Quote Sure none of that stuff does anything. More Israelis were killed by the IDF on Oct. 7 alone than have ever been killed by a Hamas rocket. 10....No. I'm saying that in the course of the Hamas attack a significant number of Israelis were killed by friendly fire. No proof, just a opinion made by you, or others .... This is just in 1/2 of this thread, there are many examples in other threads...most of them are you not understanding the context behind the actions or the media adding in a lot of exaggeration to sell the story...much like you do...many other posters have pointed this out to you, and you still continue to to spread rumors or false news... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted June 7, 2024 Report Posted June 7, 2024 On 5/28/2024 at 11:56 AM, Black Dog said: LOL I've read this braindead "Hamas are worse than the Nazis because the Nazis felt bad about what they were doing" take before and it betrays a staggering ignorance of the realities of the Holocaust and the enthusiasm of its perpetrators. Have they or have they not destroyed 70% of the housing stock in Gaza. BBC reports less than 50 %...have been destroyed...looks like he was right, again your making your facts up aren't you... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68006607 Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Black Dog Posted June 7, 2024 Report Posted June 7, 2024 11 hours ago, Army Guy said: BBC reports less than 50 %...have been destroyed...looks like he was right, again your making your facts up aren't you... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68006607 That was from January. Quote
Black Dog Posted June 7, 2024 Report Posted June 7, 2024 11 hours ago, Army Guy said: 1. I keep hearing these kinds of claims being made but I have yet to see any actual evidence, we're just supposed to take Israel's word for these things, which is worth zilch. Israel routinely targets civilians (including journalists and aid workers) and lies about it. This is your opinion, you have not shown any evidence to back up this statement...in fact Israel has been forth coming to claiming mistakes made in combat... Boy for a professional military, Israel sure makes a lot of oopsies involving journalists and other civilians getting killed in targeted attacks. "We're not evil, just incompetent!" is quite a defense. Quote 2. I'm not sure what you're talking about, I've always opposed the Zionist project and called the stupes out. The problem is they've gotten so much stupider post-Trump. Not sure what you meant by Zionist project but i'm sure it means your not fond of the jewish nation or it's people , i may be wrong b ut judging from what you've already posted i think i got it right. No you got it wrong. The Zionist project is the maintenance of an ethnostate on occupied land. Quote 3...So they used extremely tiny bombs to minimize civilian casualties but somehow those tiny bombs caused secondary explosions 200 metres away. Right, sure. You will fall for anything. You must be familiar with this type of munition to judge its effects on the ground...perhaps you can tells us it's effect on the ground such as fragmentation radius, or explosive radius, or what kind of munition it is...I think you made that up... They claimed to have used two GBU-39s. Quote 5...Or there was the time they used "precision guided munitions" to kill every single member of the World Central Kitchen relief team in a succession of strikes. Mistakes happen all the time, in conflict, again that is hard to believe , because in your mind dropping a bomb from 100 feet doing almost 1500 miles an hour what could go wrong...it is common to have blue on blue or blue on green accidents, it is even more common to hit something that was not meant to be hit...your kitchen staff is an example..If your in a combat zone, for any reasons odds are you will experience what it is like to be targeted...it does not matter if your working for red cross, or some other organization...one way or another your going to experience war close up and personal... You must be unfamiliar with the incident in question which involved multiple strikes against multiple targets until every single member of the aid convoy was dead. Quote 6... thin levelling an entire apartment complex full of people because a team of people are launching shitty homemade rockets or mortars is a direct contravention of the principle of proportionality. Again this is your opinion, according to the inter national laws and the Geneva convention, proportionality is up to the the on scene commander or persons making that call, it can be challenged in the courts, or UN but there needs to be proof, which is what your missing in your statement...do you know how many insurgents were in the building or what munitions were stored there, or was there a high value target present...there are hundreds of reasons why they use the munitions they use, or why they use them...which you have not taken into account, but assuming... It's funny that your basic assumption is always that Israel is always right and the burden of proof is on those who aren't dropping the bombs. the idea that they might be even simply indifferent to civilian casualties/willing to accept a significantly higher number of civilian casualties than other forces might simply doesn't cross your mind at all. Quote ..... don't have to imagine. The good guys don't hide behind women and children like you support and encourage. When Hamas hides behind them, they turn them into military targets. You encourage this cowardly behavior because you sit here expecting Israel not to fight a war against Hamas because they hide behind their people. Civilians are never considered military targets, that's a disgusting thing to say. Quote Thats exactly how it works, if the commander on scene decides taking out a building and the insurgents in side out weighs the cost of civilian lives then that is a legit call. Yes and my point is Israel has displayed a willingness if not enthusiasm for setting the threshold for acceptable civilian casualties at a very high level. Quote UNRWA has already been disqualified from being a reliably source of anything due to most of it's ranks involved in other areas of Hamas including taking part in the massacre on oct 7, hiding hostages taking hostages... False. Quote 10....No. I'm saying that in the course of the Hamas attack a significant number of Israelis were killed by friendly fire. No proof, just a opinion made by you, or others .... Lol come on man: IDF officer recounts ordering tank fire on Be’eri home during hostage standoff on Oct. 7 Quote
CITIZEN_2015 Posted June 7, 2024 Report Posted June 7, 2024 14 hours ago, Army Guy said: I've explain that over and over, any building that has special status like hospitals, schools, religious buildings if the enemy is using them to fight out of or store weapons or munitions they loss that special status, and become a legitimate target...it does not matter if it was run by the UN itself those are the rules of war, written by the UN , inter national courts... Listen Arabs are my enemy, Israel is my friend. But I have no tolerance when it comes to killing women and children. Israeli army knew well that many defenseless people including women and children will die if they attack the school but they went ahead with the criminal act anyway. Quote
Army Guy Posted June 7, 2024 Report Posted June 7, 2024 1 hour ago, Black Dog said: Boy for a professional military, Israel sure makes a lot of oopsies involving journalists and other civilians getting killed in targeted attacks. "We're not evil, just incompetent!" is quite a defense. No you got it wrong. The Zionist project is the maintenance of an ethnostate on occupied land. They claimed to have used two GBU-39s. You must be unfamiliar with the incident in question which involved multiple strikes against multiple targets until every single member of the aid convoy was dead. It's funny that your basic assumption is always that Israel is always right and the burden of proof is on those who aren't dropping the bombs. the idea that they might be even simply indifferent to civilian casualties/willing to accept a significantly higher number of civilian casualties than other forces might simply doesn't cross your mind at all. Civilians are never considered military targets, that's a disgusting thing to say. Yes and my point is Israel has displayed a willingness if not enthusiasm for setting the threshold for acceptable civilian casualties at a very high level. False. Lol come on man: IDF officer recounts ordering tank fire on Be’eri home during hostage standoff on Oct. 7 There are literally thousands upon thousands of moving pieces on the battlefield...mistakes happen in "every" conflict, so much so they invented a word for it collateral damage...why is that so hard to comprehend...you've yet to prove any of these accidents were intentional, intent on killing civilians, and civilians only...what you have is opinion....thats all. The conflict is mostly happening in Gaza which from 2005 was not occupied, it has been under the control and care of Hamas...it is now occupied and might be for a long time coming... GBU-39 are small diameter bombs, 250 lb bombs packed with almost 40 lbs of explosive, with a blast radius of over 300 meters ..fragmentation radius of just over 200 meters 4 lbs of high explosive would be enough to level your home to the basement... I read about it, once again thousands upon thousands of moving pieces on the battle field, someone screwed up and people are dead, mistakes are common on the battlefield.... It's not funney at all, your making assumptions without any proof at all...and the next poster will regurgitate what you have posted thinking it is true...when it is false news...Only you can monitor what you post, if there is no proof or valid source you should refrain from posting it... Once again give us some proof of how they are indifferent or willing to accept higher civilian causalities...open days of D-day, 15- 20,000 french civilians are killed on the areas around the landing sites...in just a few days......and today we are celebrating that very battle......those numbers would double prior to breaking out of the area deeper into france....How many civilians died in the bombing of dresden, germany.... 46,000 civilians were killed in Afghanistan conflict by coalition members... the list goes on and on... I did not say they were military targets, todays rules of war are written to limit the amount of civilian casualties, but even with these rules civilians still die at a higher rate than any other group...hence the word collateral damage....I didn't invent the word or nor did i say killing civilians is OK, but it happens in every conflict, to often...and when your fighting in a urban area, those numbers triple or more... Once again prove it, or it is all opinion, and like a$$ holes everyone has one... It is not false, UN and UNRWA has told the media it had members take part in the attack, including hiding or keeping hostages....why would they go public if it was not true.... You said Significant numbers of israelis killed during the raid was killed by IDF...12 or 14 does not make a significant number, in fact it is a small percentage....these decisions are made in mere minutes or seconds, there is no sleeping on it to ensure you make the right decision..are they always right no they are not...Have you always made split second decisions that have alway turned out right...no you have not...but somehow you expect soldiers to be perfect, they are not robots they are human and prone to making mistakes that cost lives...war and conflict are governed by murphy's law, if it can go wrong it will...now if your a perfect person, and make no mistakes then every nation would love to have you in their military...but you have chosen a different path, one that includes an armchair so you can judge others... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted June 7, 2024 Report Posted June 7, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: Listen Arabs are my enemy, Israel is my friend. But I have no tolerance when it comes to killing women and children. Israeli army knew well that many defenseless people including women and children will die if they attack the school but they went ahead with the criminal act anyway. This is not about arabs or israelis...this is about war and conflict...killing women and children are a large part of that...not just in this conflict but every conflict globally...look at yourself for a second, where is your concern for other conflicts, just last week it was reported that in Sudan they were stacking civilians on the ground on top of each other to shoot them, to save on bullets...hundreds were killed intentionally...not a peep out of global leaders, citizen's, much less the majority of the media... But mention a school was bombed by Israel and the world loses' its mind...don't get me wrong it is tragic, and i pray i could change it somehow, but until they make magic bullets and bombs civilians are going to take the brunt of war...or until man finds other ways to solve it's issues without violence...That's not going to happen anytime soon...This conflict is no different than any others.... Maybe if people globally were forced to spend time in a war zone, see it first hand, smell what death smells like, taste what death tastes like, feel it both physically and mentally, until you go numb , until your no longer a functioning human....just another animal...killing for survival... if we did that we might be able to come up with different solutions...until then death and destruction is all that comes out of war...very little else of any good seems to materialize... This what a man looks like after being in combat way to long...look into his eyes...That is a Canadian soldier from the RCR regt, in Korea...Thats what numb looks like... https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F4fg4vistna351.jpg Edited June 7, 2024 by Army Guy Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Black Dog Posted June 7, 2024 Report Posted June 7, 2024 24 minutes ago, Army Guy said: There are literally thousands upon thousands of moving pieces on the battlefield...mistakes happen in "every" conflict, so much so they invented a word for it collateral damage...why is that so hard to comprehend...you've yet to prove any of these accidents were intentional, intent on killing civilians, and civilians only...what you have is opinion....thats all. I never made that claim. My position has always been that Israel is, at best, indifferent to civilian casualties. Quote GBU-39 are small diameter bombs, 250 lb bombs packed with almost 40 lbs of explosive, with a blast radius of over 300 meters ..fragmentation radius of just over 200 meters 4 lbs of high explosive would be enough to level your home to the basement... Hmm sounds like dropping two such bombs in the middle of a densely populated encampment would cause a significant number of civilian casualties, thanks for making my point for me. Quote I read about it, once again thousands upon thousands of moving pieces on the battle field, someone screwed up and people are dead, mistakes are common on the battlefield.... Again: incompetence or malice, take your pick. Quote It's not funney at all, your making assumptions without any proof at all...and the next poster will regurgitate what you have posted thinking it is true...when it is false news...Only you can monitor what you post, if there is no proof or valid source you should refrain from posting it... Once again give us some proof of how they are indifferent or willing to accept higher civilian causalities...open days of D-day, 15- 20,000 french civilians are killed on the areas around the landing sites...in just a few days......and today we are celebrating that very battle......those numbers would double prior to breaking out of the area deeper into france....How many civilians died in the bombing of dresden, germany.... 46,000 civilians were killed in Afghanistan conflict by coalition members... the list goes on and on... I posted articles upthread about how Israel has changed it's ROE to create an expanded definition of military target that includes things like a single Hamas members' personal residence. Quote I did not say they were military targets, todays rules of war are written to limit the amount of civilian casualties, but even with these rules civilians still die at a higher rate than any other group...hence the word collateral damage....I didn't invent the word or nor did i say killing civilians is OK, but it happens in every conflict, to often...and when your fighting in a urban area, those numbers triple or more... Those were your exact words: "When Hamas hides behind them (civilians), they (Hamas) turn them (civilians) into military targets." Quote It is not false, UN and UNRWA has told the media it had members take part in the attack, including hiding or keeping hostages....why would they go public if it was not true.... Link? Quote You said Significant numbers of israelis killed during the raid was killed by IDF...12 or 14 does not make a significant number, in fact it is a small percentage.... 12 or 14 in just one house in one kibbutz. Now extrapolate that across the conflict zone. Quote
Army Guy Posted June 7, 2024 Report Posted June 7, 2024 9 minutes ago, Black Dog said: I never made that claim. My position has always been that Israel is, at best, indifferent to civilian casualties. Hmm sounds like dropping two such bombs in the middle of a densely populated encampment would cause a significant number of civilian casualties, thanks for making my point for me. Again: incompetence or malice, take your pick. I posted articles upthread about how Israel has changed it's ROE to create an expanded definition of military target that includes things like a single Hamas members' personal residence. Those were your exact words: "When Hamas hides behind them (civilians), they (Hamas) turn them (civilians) into military targets." Link? 12 or 14 in just one house in one kibbutz. Now extrapolate that across the conflict zone. Again that is your opinion, you've yet to prove that Israel during it's planning phases for each attack does not include the safety of civilians...every military does to be in line with the signed Geneva conventions... Sorry that the smallest they come in, for a guided munition... so there was consideration for collateral damage... i would say a tragic mistake was made, incompetence on that one individual, you can't paint the entire army for one persons mistake...they are all not as perfect as you are... Then you misunderstanding the ROE, depending on the hams targets value, ie commander or other high value target then collateral damage to civilians can be overlooked...but for a normal grunt in the field, unless he is holding up an entire unit with machine gun fire then normally civilian lives take precedence.. Actually those aren't my words but another posters, i was using your reply as an example....depending on the circumstances on the ground that remark might be true. AAHH that how hamas estimates civilian deaths just pulls them from their orifices... That's not how this works, deaths and injuries are reported by morgue or hospital units...and confirmed by red cross or other Agency...Both sides use different weapons systems which leave different entrance and exit wounds....easy to say who killed who... 1 Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
User Posted June 9, 2024 Author Report Posted June 9, 2024 On 6/7/2024 at 2:04 PM, Black Dog said: I never made that claim. My position has always been that Israel is, at best, indifferent to civilian casualties. Hamas is indifferent to endangering them and watching them die because of their actions. Quote
ironstone Posted June 9, 2024 Report Posted June 9, 2024 1 Quote "Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it." Thomas Sowell
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