Pro-Hamas Rallies in Canada

[User]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

It was the subjugation started by the Zionist forces that became Israel's military following the 1948 Palestine War that created Israel.

What is this word salad?

Israel was not created by the 1948 war. Israel came to be... and then Palestinians and the neighboring arab countries went to war against them. 

You can't sit here claiming the subjugation that came AFTER Palestinians started a war is the reason for the war. 

 

[eyeball]

56 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

The Israelis were exiled by the Romans in 132 AD. They had no intention of leaving the Kingdom of Israel, since that was their homeland.  This predates Islam by 700 years, and Palestinians by about 1775 years.

Past time to get over it don't you think? We're taking about things that occurred within living memory.

[eyeball]

30 minutes ago, User said:

Israel was not created by the 1948 war.

Then why do Israelis refer to it as their War of Independence? 

[CdnFox]

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

Bullshit

Take it up with Oxford dictionary.

Dictionary says you're wrong. 

9 hours ago, eyeball said:

That same as it was under Britain.

So none then. 

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Then why do Israelis refer to it as their War of Independence? 

Why wouldn't they? The american war of independence didn't create america. it just changed who governed it. 

[NAME REMOVED]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Past time to get over it don't you think? We're taking about things that occurred within living memory.

I agree.

 

The Palestinians attacked Israel in 1948. Lost. They ahve been crying about it 76 years. Time to get over it, and stop calling for the destruction of Israel.

I would love for you to point to a Palestinian who can remember the war of 1948-49. It's almost comical how easily it is to win a battle of wits against you.

I usually prefer a challenge.

Edited June 28, 2024 by DUI_Offender

[Venandi]

3 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

I would love for you to point to a Palestinian who can remember the war of 1948-49.

The time machine approach to peace in ME is just as effective as eating dates off the calendar is in fighting world hunger. 

- If you talk to a Palestinian shop keeper over a glass of sweet tea you will quickly discover that he knows exactly what happened to him, his father and his grandfather... Geo political / cultural topography dissertations utterly fail to resonate with anyone who still has the keys to the farm he grew up on in his pocket.

He will not be offering you tea.

- Another fail point is suggesting that Hamas will ever negotiate political objectives or address any of his legitimate grievances in a peaceful or constructive manner... he already knows they won't.

No tea and you get to stay in the jeep... otherwise I won't get tea either.

Most aspects of the solution are complicated and difficult, this part... not so much.

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2024 by Venandi

[User]

8 hours ago, eyeball said:

Then why do Israelis refer to it as their War of Independence? 

They declared their independence... and then the Palestinians and neighboring Arab countries went to war against them. 

 

[eyeball]

8 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

I would love for you to point to a Palestinian who can remember the war of 1948-49.

Here you go...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2016/5/19/nakba-survivors-share-their-stories-of-loss-and-hope

8 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

It's almost comical how easily it is to win a battle of wits against you.

What's comical is the presumption of infallibility you people bring to these discussions. It's like watching fish in a barrel shoot themselves.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, User said:

They declared their independence...

Following a year of conquest and when Britain should have been standing in the way and protecting the people Zionists were conquering.

[Venandi]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

What's comical is the presumption of infallibility you people bring to these discussions. It's like watching fish in a barrel shoot themselves.

In the absence of a time machine what's even more comical is how little it matters...   

Edited June 28, 2024 by Venandi

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Venandi said:

In the absence of a time machine what's even more comical is how little it matters...   

That's why the focus should be on living memory not ancient history. 

If ancient history becomes the established  justification for the creation of Israel there will never be peace on this ridiculous planet.

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

That's why the focus should be on living memory not ancient history. 

If ancient history becomes the established  justification for the creation of Israel there will never be peace on this ridiculous planet.

There will never be peace on this ridiculous planet anyway, but if ANY history is justification for the violence we've seen from Palestine in the last 20 years then there will never be peace. 

Let me clue you in.  There is ALWAYS a reason for war if that's what people want. Period.  But when people want peace - that's all the justification for peace they need. 

If palestine wants to continue to live in misery, poverty if they want to see their children slaughtered and their homes bombed and basically live like rabid animals then this is what they get.  If they decide they want peace then there is peace tomorrow. 

[eyeball]

4 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Let me clue you in. 

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Aww muffin - burying your face in shame.  Can't blame you   

People like you will ALWAYS find a reason to hate as long as they want to.  People don't need to justify peace if that's what they want.  Your buddies will suffer and die as long as they think suffering and dying is a better choice. 

[Moonlight Graham]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

That's why the focus should be on living memory not ancient history. 

If ancient history becomes the established  justification for the creation of Israel there will never be peace on this ridiculous planet.

On the one hand you may be right.  On the other hand, would you or others say this about indigenous land claims?

Israel isn't just your typical dispute about borders.  Jews were being annihilated in Europe.  There was really no place on earth safe for them and they had zero self determination anywhere.   At least natives have reserves that they govern on their traditional territory.

Anyways, Israelis will never leave Israel voluntarily so it's irrelevant.  Palestinians are the ones who have always rejected any 2-state solution for the last 80 years.

[CdnFox]

46 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

 

Anyways, Israelis will never leave Israel voluntarily so it's irrelevant.  Palestinians are the ones who have always rejected any 2-state solution for the last 80 years.

And honestly if anyone's going, it's going to be them.  After every conflict they have less land and israel has more.  I"m not sure they're going to be giving all of gaza back this time either. I'm pretty sure what's left will be occupied and they'll probably want 'buffer zones' etc. I suspect gaza's days are numbered. 

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

On the one hand you may be right.  On the other hand, would you or others say this about indigenous land claims?

I have friends who were raped in residential schools.

I'm right on both hands. You'd have to be some special kind of callous to tell these people to just get over it.

There's also intergenerational trauma stemming from living memory. Do the kids and grandkids of a Palestinian grandmother who was driven from her family home and perhaps watched her parents being killed resisting to get over it? Do you tell them to just get over knowing what happened? 

And I suspect Jews are likewise amongst the most intergenerationally traumatized people on the planet  following the 2nd world war.  Especially after being turned away as refugees from fine upstanding folks like us.

It's a wonder they haven't nuked Britain for changing its mind about allowing Jews to immigrate to Palestine just before the 2nd world war. I can't help but wonder if such a betrayal gave Hitler the sense he had a green light to go ahead and exterminate 6 million of them.

Edited June 29, 2024 by eyeball

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

I have friends who were raped in residential schools.

I'm right on both hands.

As usual your contradicting yourself.

 

[Moonlight Graham]

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

I have friends who were raped in residential schools.

I'm right on both hands. You'd have to be some special kind of callous to tell these people to just get over it.

I didn't say residential schools, I said land claims, which is what we're talking about with Israel.  If Britain and France colonized most of North America and stole land from the natives then the Muslim Caliphate empire invaded and colonized Israel/Palestine.  What's the difference?  And where do you draw the line?  You just said the line is "living memory".  That means most any native land claim not already specified in a legal treaty is void.

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

What's the difference?  And where do you draw the line?  You just said the line is "living memory". 

Intergenerational trauma encompasses living memory. The after effects of trauma and abuse persist for generations. Abusers can become abusers for example. People who were treated violently become violent themselves. It doesn't just go away with the passing of the abused generation.

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

Intergenerational trauma encompasses living memory. 

Nope.  It encompasses living imagination. Not memory. They didn't experience it. 

Further even if that were true it'd be true for the israelis going back in time further. So you'd still lose. 

[Moonlight Graham]

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

Intergenerational trauma encompasses living memory. The after effects of trauma and abuse persist for generations. Abusers can become abusers for example. People who were treated violently become violent themselves. It doesn't just go away with the passing of the abused generation.

Now you've moved the goalposts from "living memory" to "intergenerational trauma" to fit a specific victim narrative while invalidating another.

So then what is the intergenerational trauma of Jewish families fleeing from their native and religious homelands to a new continent where they're ethnic minorities and generation after generation are harassed, discriminated against, assaulted, murdered, and culminating in genocidal extermination, families ripped apart, living in concentration camps, and then fleeing Europe for their lives again where nowhere in the world is seemingly safe from antisemitism?  And then when the UN grants them the ability to return to their indigenous lands because of this they're attacked constantly for 80 years and completely surrounded by countries filled with a lot of people and leaders who want to genocide them again.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Now you've moved the goalposts from "living memory" to "intergenerational trauma" to fit a specific victim narrative while invalidating another.

So then what is the intergenerational trauma of Jewish families fleeing from their native and religious homelands to a new continent where they're ethnic minorities and generation after generation are harassed, discriminated against, assaulted, murdered, and culminating in genocidal extermination, families ripped apart, living in concentration camps, and then fleeing Europe for their lives again where nowhere in the world is seemingly safe from antisemitism?  And then when the UN grants them the ability to return to their indigenous lands because of this they're attacked constantly for 80 years and completely surrounded by countries filled with a lot of people and leaders who want to genocide them again.

Why are you living in the past?

-eyeball

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Now you've moved the goalposts from "living memory" to "intergenerational trauma" to fit a specific victim narrative while invalidating another.

No its to fit a specific thing - the systemic oppression used to victimize Jews, Palestinians and indigenous people.

Quote

So then what is the intergenerational trauma of Jewish families fleeing from their native and religious homelands to a new continent where they're ethnic minorities and generation after generation are harassed, discriminated against, assaulted, murdered, and culminating in genocidal extermination, families ripped apart, living in concentration camps, and then fleeing Europe for their lives again where nowhere in the world is seemingly safe from antisemitism? 

Its a disgrace, especially knowing we had a hand in their terrible treatment.

Quote

And then when the UN grants them the ability to return to their indigenous lands because of this they're attacked constantly for 80 years and completely surrounded by countries filled with a lot of people and leaders who want to genocide them again.

The UN gave them ability to return with guns blazing and to destroy the people who happened to live there? I doubt it myself. 

[NAME REMOVED]

On 6/28/2024 at 8:20 PM, eyeball said:

I have friends who were raped in residential schools.

Yeah, riiiight.

 

On 6/28/2024 at 8:20 PM, eyeball said:

There's also intergenerational trauma stemming from living memory. Do the kids and grandkids of a Palestinian grandmother who was driven from her family home and perhaps watched her parents being killed resisting to get over it? Do you tell them to just get over knowing what happened? 

That trauma could ahve been prevented if the Arabs had agreed on the 1947 UN Partition plan.

On 6/28/2024 at 8:20 PM, eyeball said:

 

It's a wonder they haven't nuked Britain for changing its mind about allowing Jews to immigrate to Palestine just before the 2nd world war. I can't help but wonder if such a betrayal gave Hitler the sense he had a green light to go ahead and exterminate 6 million of them.

The British were in an impossible position in 1939.  The Arab states were threatening to align with Nazi Germany, if Jewish immigration to Palestine was not curtailed. So the British reluctantly imposed the White Paper, limiting Jewish Immigration, so that the Arab countries would remain neutral, allow the allies access to their resource-rich oil and gas reserves.

How was Britain supposed to know that Hitler planned on exterminating the Jews, when Hitler himself went into WWII not knowing what he himself wanted to do with Europe's Jewish population (The Nazis had originally looked into resettling the Jews of Europe into Africa - either Madagascar or Uganda).  Only in January 1942 was the fate of the Jews settled, and that was to implement death camps in Poland.

Nuking Britain...lol.  Jews in general have not forgiven the Germans for the Holocaust. the British are an afterthought. 

Edited June 30, 2024 by DUI_Offender