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Catholic Church and fascism


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In the times of WWII the top establishment of the Catholic church was ambivalent on Nazis and their crimes.

Past decades and generations, history books and discussions and lo: another brand of fascism is rising in Europe; it is as aggressive, bloodthirsty and inhumane. And the Pope is calling for a ceasefire and negotiations. With Hitler: seek a compromise understanding and a peaceful resolution.

How can moral blindness, total, absolute ignorance of such magnitude, repeatedly, twice in a row, be explained by an institution claiming itself to be a moral compass of the humanity?

There's one answer that is both simple and explanatory: the opaque, ultimately hierarchical institutions that is a relic of the ages and forms of organization long past are also the ones that are most likely to misconstrue the reality and produce wrong assessments of it. Even repeatedly, in a row. Even in cases as black and white as can possibly be.

This is a fact now: the history. Anyone with a functional mind cannot ignore it.

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There's more to the point. Humans like and need collective, psychic ceremonies and rituals since the unknown beginnings. Shamans, druids, Stownhedge, pharaohs and priests you name it, something in the great ape genes. When you see Krishna dance it serves that call and it's OK. But if and when, the moment it ventures further and begins to claim the privilege or dictate of morality, it gets it all wrong, very wrong: inquisition, witch hunts, Galileo, Hitler's pope, minor abuse, abortion and again, whole bloody h..ll breaking out.

There's no avoiding a sound rational conclusion from this long chain of facts: no; they don't have a clue. Old men in a gilded chair have it all wrong, yet again. One could hope for a heavenly miracle but not this time, nope. And so, you should use your own clear mind; your conscience and your moral judgement. Never question it because of something an old man in a chair said.

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4 hours ago, myata said:

How can moral blindness, total, absolute ignorance of such magnitude, repeatedly, twice in a row, be explained by an institution claiming itself to be a moral compass of the humanity?

Good question!  The answers are to do with indoctrination.  The institution has mechanisms in place right from day one in the education system to indoctrinate its people to believe a certain narrative that they are right about everything and everyone outside the institution is wrong.  After all they believe they were ordained by God to be God's representative on earth.  This is what we are up against.  Pretty tough hill to climb.

The only way to counter this is with God's written revelation, the Bible.  The reason is because God inspired men to write it.  The Bible is a light than can expose darkness and false religion.

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Just now, blackbird said:

Pretty tough hill to climb.

When people create their own mental reality, via indoctrination, propaganda or to escape the reality returning them back can be not just steep but insurmountable task. It can and literally took generations.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/10/2024 at 11:46 AM, blackbird said:

Good question!  The answers are to do with indoctrination.  The institution has mechanisms in place right from day one in the education system to indoctrinate its people to believe a certain narrative that they are right about everything and everyone outside the institution is wrong.  After all they believe they were ordained by God to be God's representative on earth.  This is what we are up against.  Pretty tough hill to climb.

The only way to counter this is with God's written revelation, the Bible.  The reason is because God inspired men to write it.  The Bible is a light than can expose darkness and false religion.

Written revelation huh? Like where Jesus says, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved"? The revelation you ignore? 

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13 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

Written revelation huh? Like where Jesus says, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved"? The revelation you ignore? 

I don't ignore it.  You just misinterpret it.  How can baptism be absolutely necessary for salvation when over a hundred verses say salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ?  Baptism is recommended as a sign of being born again.  It dos not save anyone.  No priest can save a person by administering baptism.  They do not have the power to do that.

You are taking one verse and ignoring the rest of the Bible.  That is not rightly dividing the word.

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8 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I don't ignore it.  You just misinterpret it.  How can baptism be absolutely necessary for salvation when over a hundred verses say salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ?  Baptism is recommended as a sign and seal of being born again.  It dos not save anyone.  No priest can save a person by administering baptism.  They do not have the power to do that.

You are taking one verse and ignoring the rest of the Bible.  That is not rightly dividing the word.

You ignore Jesus so why should be I surprised you don't listen to me. I will keep trying though because I know God put a brain inside your skull. 

Here's a few questions actually answer them

1. How many times did God say "Let there be light" before there actually was light?

2. How many times does Jesus need to say something in order for it to actually be true?

3. How does what Jesus say contradict what is said elsewhere  about faith? 

4. Do you know what the word "and" means? 

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18 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

You ignore Jesus so why should be I surprised you don't listen to me. I will keep trying though because I know God put a brain inside your skull. 

Here's a few questions actually answer them

1. How many times did God say "Let there be light" before there actually was light?

2. How many times does Jesus need to say something in order for it to actually be true?

3. How does what Jesus say contradict what is said elsewhere  about faith? 

4. Do you know what the word "and" means? 

This article explains that verse, Mark 16:16, very well.  I could not explain it better myself.  It really answers the question "is baptism necessary for salvation".

You are making a negative inference of that verse.  It does not say he who is not baptized will not be saved.

quote

As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches through careful consideration of the language and context of the verse. We also filter it through what we know the Bible teaches elsewhere on the subject. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation is a faulty interpretation. For more information, please visit our webpage "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"

Regarding Mark 16:16, it is important to remember that there are some textual problems with Mark chapter 16, verses 9-20. There is some question as to whether these verses were originally part of the Gospel of Mark or whether they were added later by a scribe. As a result, it is best not to base a key doctrine on anything from Mark 16:9-20, such as snake handling, unless it is also supported by other passages of Scripture.

Assuming that verse 16 is original to Mark, does it teach that baptism is required for salvation? The short answer is, no, it does not. In order to make it teach that baptism is required for salvation, one must go beyond what the verse actually says. What this verse does teach is that belief is necessary for salvation, which is consistent with the countless verses where only belief is mentioned (e.g., John 3:18; John 5:24; John 12:44; John 20:31; 1 John 5:13).

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16). This verse is composed of two basic statements. 1—He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2—He who does not believe will be condemned.

While this verse tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they are saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, a third statement would be necessary, viz., “He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned” or “He who is not baptized will be condemned.” But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse.

Those who try to use Mark 16:16 to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation commit a common but serious mistake that is sometimes called the Negative Inference Fallacy. This is the rule to follow: “If a statement is true, we cannot assume that all negations (or opposites) of that statement are also true." For example, the statement “a dog with brown spots is an animal” is true; however, the negative, “if a dog does not have brown spots, it is not an animal” is false. In the same way, “he who believes and is baptized will be saved” is true; however, the statement “he who believes but is not baptized will not be saved” is an unwarranted assumption. Yet this is exactly the assumption made by those who support baptismal regeneration.

Consider this example: "Whoever believes and lives in Kansas will be saved, but those that do not believe are condemned." This statement is strictly true; Kansans who believe in Jesus will be saved. However, to say that only those believers who live in Kansas are saved is an illogical and false assumption. The statement does not say a believer must live in Kansas in order to go to heaven. Similarly, Mark 16:16 does not say a believer must be baptized. The verse states a fact about baptized believers (they will be saved), but it says exactly nothing about believers who have not been baptized. There may be believers who do not dwell in Kansas, yet they are still saved; and there may be believers who have not been baptized, yet they, too, are still saved.

The one specific condition required for salvation is stated in the second part of Mark 16:16: “Whoever does not believe will be condemned.” In essence, Jesus has given both the positive condition of belief (whoever believes will be saved) and the negative condition of unbelief (whoever does not believe will be condemned). Therefore, we can say with absolute certainty that belief is the requirement for salvation. More importantly, we see this condition restated positively and negatively throughout Scripture (John 3:16; John 3:18; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:53-54; John 8:24; Acts 16:31).

Jesus mentions a condition related to salvation (baptism) in Mark 16:16. But a related condition should not be confused with a requirement. For example, having a fever is related to being ill, but a fever is not required for illness to be present. Nowhere in the Bible do we find a statement such as “whoever is not baptized will be condemned.” Therefore, we cannot say that baptism is necessary for salvation based on Mark 16:16 or any other verse.

Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? No, it does not. It clearly establishes that belief is required for salvation, but it does not prove or disprove the idea of baptism being a requirement. How can we know, then, if one must be baptized in order to be saved? We must look to the full counsel of God’s Word. Here is a summary of the evidence:

1—The Bible is clear that we are saved by faith alone. Abraham was saved by faith, and we are saved by faith (Romans 4:1-25; Galatians 3:6-22).

2—Throughout the Bible, in every dispensation, people have been saved without being baptized. Every believer in the Old Testament (e.g., Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon) was saved but not baptized. The thief on the cross was saved but not baptized. Cornelius was saved before he was baptized (Acts 10:44-46).

3—Baptism is a testimony of our faith and a public declaration that we believe in Jesus Christ. The Scriptures tell us that we have eternal life the moment we believe (John 5:24), and belief always comes before being baptized. Baptism does not save us any more than walking an aisle or saying a prayer saves us. We are saved when we believe.

4—The Bible never says that if one is not baptized then he is not saved.

5—If baptism were required for salvation, then no one could be saved without another party being present. Someone must be there to baptize a person before he can be saved. This effectively limits who can be saved and when he can be saved. The consequences of this doctrine, when carried to a logical conclusion, are devastating. For example, a soldier who believes on the battlefield but is killed before he can be baptized would go to hell.

6—Throughout the Bible we see that at the point of faith a believer possesses all the promises and blessings of salvation (John 1:12; 3:16; 5:24; 6:47; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31). When one believes, he has eternal life, does not come under judgment, and has passed from death into life (John 5:24)—all before he or she is baptized.

If you believe in baptismal regeneration, you would do well to prayerfully consider whom or what you are really putting your trust in. Is your faith in a physical act (being baptized) or in the finished work of Christ on the cross? Whom or what are you trusting for salvation? Is it the shadow (baptism) or the substance (Jesus Christ)? Our faith must rest in Christ alone. “We have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7).   unquote

Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? | GotQuestions.org

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20 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I don't ignore it.  You just misinterpret it.  How can baptism be absolutely necessary for salvation when over a hundred verses say salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ?  Baptism is recommended as a sign of being born again.  It dos not save anyone.  No priest can save a person by administering baptism.  They do not have the power to do that.

You are taking one verse and ignoring the rest of the Bible.  That is not rightly dividing the word.

So Jesus says "Whoever believes AND(my emphasis) is baptized will be saved...".

Blackbird says, "Baptism is recommended as a sign of being born again.  It dos not save anyone."

Why in heavens name would I believe Jesus? You say salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ but when he says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, that's not true.

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1 minute ago, blackbird said:

This article explains that verse, Mark 16:16, very well.  I could not explain it better myself.  It really answers the question "is baptism necessary for salvation".

quote

As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches through careful consideration of the language and context of the verse. We also filter it through what we know the Bible teaches elsewhere on the subject. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation is a faulty interpretation. For more information, please visit our webpage "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"

Regarding Mark 16:16, it is important to remember that there are some textual problems with Mark chapter 16, verses 9-20. There is some question as to whether these verses were originally part of the Gospel of Mark or whether they were added later by a scribe. As a result, it is best not to base a key doctrine on anything from Mark 16:9-20, such as snake handling, unless it is also supported by other passages of Scripture.

Assuming that verse 16 is original to Mark, does it teach that baptism is required for salvation? The short answer is, no, it does not. In order to make it teach that baptism is required for salvation, one must go beyond what the verse actually says. What this verse does teach is that belief is necessary for salvation, which is consistent with the countless verses where only belief is mentioned (e.g., John 3:18; John 5:24; John 12:44; John 20:31; 1 John 5:13).

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16). This verse is composed of two basic statements. 1—He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2—He who does not believe will be condemned.

While this verse tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they are saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, a third statement would be necessary, viz., “He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned” or “He who is not baptized will be condemned.” But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse.

Those who try to use Mark 16:16 to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation commit a common but serious mistake that is sometimes called the Negative Inference Fallacy. This is the rule to follow: “If a statement is true, we cannot assume that all negations (or opposites) of that statement are also true." For example, the statement “a dog with brown spots is an animal” is true; however, the negative, “if a dog does not have brown spots, it is not an animal” is false. In the same way, “he who believes and is baptized will be saved” is true; however, the statement “he who believes but is not baptized will not be saved” is an unwarranted assumption. Yet this is exactly the assumption made by those who support baptismal regeneration.

Consider this example: "Whoever believes and lives in Kansas will be saved, but those that do not believe are condemned." This statement is strictly true; Kansans who believe in Jesus will be saved. However, to say that only those believers who live in Kansas are saved is an illogical and false assumption. The statement does not say a believer must live in Kansas in order to go to heaven. Similarly, Mark 16:16 does not say a believer must be baptized. The verse states a fact about baptized believers (they will be saved), but it says exactly nothing about believers who have not been baptized. There may be believers who do not dwell in Kansas, yet they are still saved; and there may be believers who have not been baptized, yet they, too, are still saved.

The one specific condition required for salvation is stated in the second part of Mark 16:16: “Whoever does not believe will be condemned.” In essence, Jesus has given both the positive condition of belief (whoever believes will be saved) and the negative condition of unbelief (whoever does not believe will be condemned). Therefore, we can say with absolute certainty that belief is the requirement for salvation. More importantly, we see this condition restated positively and negatively throughout Scripture (John 3:16; John 3:18; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:53-54; John 8:24; Acts 16:31).

Jesus mentions a condition related to salvation (baptism) in Mark 16:16. But a related condition should not be confused with a requirement. For example, having a fever is related to being ill, but a fever is not required for illness to be present. Nowhere in the Bible do we find a statement such as “whoever is not baptized will be condemned.” Therefore, we cannot say that baptism is necessary for salvation based on Mark 16:16 or any other verse.

Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? No, it does not. It clearly establishes that belief is required for salvation, but it does not prove or disprove the idea of baptism being a requirement. How can we know, then, if one must be baptized in order to be saved? We must look to the full counsel of God’s Word. Here is a summary of the evidence:

1—The Bible is clear that we are saved by faith alone. Abraham was saved by faith, and we are saved by faith (Romans 4:1-25; Galatians 3:6-22).

2—Throughout the Bible, in every dispensation, people have been saved without being baptized. Every believer in the Old Testament (e.g., Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon) was saved but not baptized. The thief on the cross was saved but not baptized. Cornelius was saved before he was baptized (Acts 10:44-46).

3—Baptism is a testimony of our faith and a public declaration that we believe in Jesus Christ. The Scriptures tell us that we have eternal life the moment we believe (John 5:24), and belief always comes before being baptized. Baptism does not save us any more than walking an aisle or saying a prayer saves us. We are saved when we believe.

4—The Bible never says that if one is not baptized then he is not saved.

5—If baptism were required for salvation, then no one could be saved without another party being present. Someone must be there to baptize a person before he can be saved. This effectively limits who can be saved and when he can be saved. The consequences of this doctrine, when carried to a logical conclusion, are devastating. For example, a soldier who believes on the battlefield but is killed before he can be baptized would go to hell.

6—Throughout the Bible we see that at the point of faith a believer possesses all the promises and blessings of salvation (John 1:12; 3:16; 5:24; 6:47; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31). When one believes, he has eternal life, does not come under judgment, and has passed from death into life (John 5:24)—all before he or she is baptized.

If you believe in baptismal regeneration, you would do well to prayerfully consider whom or what you are really putting your trust in. Is your faith in a physical act (being baptized) or in the finished work of Christ on the cross? Whom or what are you trusting for salvation? Is it the shadow (baptism) or the substance (Jesus Christ)? Our faith must rest in Christ alone. “We have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7).   unquote

Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? | GotQuestions.org

Appealing AGAIN to non biblical sources 

Show me where the Bible says "we are saved by faith alone". I meant the quote from scripture not a website you like to copy and paste from. I quoted Jesus words directly from scripture. I thought you people say catholics are the non biblical ones. 

Make sure your scripture passage for salvation by faith alone says "faith alone". The quotation marks are there for a reason. I can quote directly from scripture where it says "faith alone". AGAIN heed the quotation marks. 

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20 hours ago, Yakuda said:

So Jesus says "Whoever believes AND(my emphasis) is baptized will be saved...".

Blackbird says, "Baptism is recommended as a sign of being born again.  It dos not save anyone."

Why in heavens name would I believe Jesus? You say salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ but when he says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, that's not true.

You replied in 2 minutes so obviously did not read and consider the article explaining it.  If you would rather remain in ignorance that is your choice.  You are choosing ignorance because you think you have the absolute truth.  Sad really.

You are putting what is called a negative inference on the verse.  It does not say someone who is not baptized will not be saved.  If that is what it intended, it would say so.  But it doesn't.

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Just now, blackbird said:

You replied in 2 minutes so obviously did not read and consider the article explaining it.  If you would rather remain in ignorance that is your choice.  You are choosing ignorance because you think you have the absolute truth.  Sad really.

You are putting what is called a negative inference on the verse.  It does not say someone who is not baptized will not be saved.  It that is what it intended, it would say so.  But it doesn't.

AGAIN  you ignore me. I will tell you AGAIN i don't recognize your non biblical source. AGAIN volume does not equal accuracy. If it's ignorance to ignore you and listen to Jesus then I'm happily ignorant. 

I didnt say anything about who is saved. I am reminding you what Jesus said. Scripture also says that "faith alone" does not save. See you STILL lose. 

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11 minutes ago, blackbird said:

 

The article already gives you several verse that show salvation is by faith.  One does not need the word "alone" to understand the meaning.  You are twisting something to try to back up a false argument.

" 2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7  Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. "  Romans 4:2-8

The apostle Paul says quite clearly Abraham was justified (received imputed righeousness) by faith alone.  You don't need the word alone to state the same thing.  This is just common sense.  Word games won't help you.

 

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8 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

Show me where the Bible says "we are saved by faith alone".

John 1:12; 3:16; 5:24; 6:47; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31).

"30  And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31  And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:30, 31

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42 minutes ago, blackbird said:

John 1:12; 3:16; 5:24; 6:47; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31).

"30  And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31  And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:30, 31

So you dont know what the quotation marks mean. Where do any of those passages say, "faith alone"?  

 

"Whoever believes AND is baptized will be saved" Jesus. 

Look I understand how hard this must be for you to realize that what your cashier turned pastor has taught you isn't biblical. It has to be devastating since they have filled you with the lie that you're a "bible believing" Christian therefore you know better. You know only what they tell you. You have the verses memorized and you think they mean what the cashier turned pastor has told you they mean. In order to do that you have to ignore Jesus and you happily do it. 

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58 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

So you dont know what the quotation marks mean. Where do any of those passages say, "faith alone"?  

 

"Whoever believes AND is baptized will be saved" Jesus. 

Look I understand how hard this must be for you to realize that what your cashier turned pastor has taught you isn't biblical. It has to be devastating since they have filled you with the lie that you're a "bible believing" Christian therefore you know better. You know only what they tell you. You have the verses memorized and you think they mean what the cashier turned pastor has told you they mean. In order to do that you have to ignore Jesus and you happily do it. 

The words "faith alone" are not necessary because those passages say essentially the same thing.  You are using a phony excuse.  I have done my best but you close your mind to everything.  

I also quoted Acts where someone asked what must I do to be saved and the reply said believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.  What more do you need to know?  When they answered they gave a straight answer BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED.   Why would the words faith alone be needed when that verse says believe.  It is using a verb to express the act of faith.  That is what believe means.  So simple .  

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14 hours ago, blackbird said:

The words "faith alone" are not necessary because those passages say essentially the same thing.  You are using a phony excuse.  I have done my best but you close your mind to everything.  

I also quoted Acts where someone asked what must I do to be saved and the reply said believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.  What more do you need to know?  When they answered they gave a straight answer BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED.   Why would the words faith alone be needed when that verse says believe.  It is using a verb to express the act of faith.  That is what believe means.  So simple .  

"Alone" has to be there because Jesus said whoever believes AND is baptized will be saved. Jesus is telling you whats needed to be saved but you ignore him. Sorry I can take Jesus at his word or believe you. Guess which I choose? 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 3/20/2024 at 8:46 AM, Yakuda said:

"Alone" has to be there because Jesus said whoever believes AND is baptized will be saved. Jesus is telling you whats needed to be saved but you ignore him. Sorry I can take Jesus at his word or believe you. Guess which I choose? 

Yet you ignore what Jesus and the Bible say on the immoral aspects of the messianic concept.

On Jesus dying for Christians, from a moral perspective.

It takes quite an imagination and ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.

Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None
of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians parents would teach their children to use a scapegoat.

Good morals and Jesus speak against the messianic concept and bids us pick up our crosses and follow him.

 

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3 hours ago, French Patriot said:

Yet you ignore what Jesus and the Bible say on the immoral aspects of the messianic concept.

On Jesus dying for Christians, from a moral perspective.

It takes quite an imagination and ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.

Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None
of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians parents would teach their children to use a scapegoat.

Good morals and Jesus speak against the messianic concept and bids us pick up our crosses and follow him.

 

Few people say so little with so many words like you do 

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19 hours ago, Yakuda said:

And the beat goes on ...

I agree. 

Evil Christians will not change their evil anti LGBTQ+ tune.

Note the closing churches where people prefer to love all their children and not just the church approved type.

After all, even the LGBTQ+ are created in God's LGBTQ+ image. 

Right? 

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