Perspektiv Posted June 14 Author Report Share Posted June 14 7 hours ago, User said: They can exit whenever they want to. They would rather have their country become Gaza, than to lose face like that. Russia will never back down. They went too far. Ukraine will never back down as if they do, they lose their country. Like I said. The only way out of this, is the exit ramp for Putin. Negotiations that work in the interests of both countries. This includes Ukraine accepting the loss of some land, and the US providing Ukraine with security guarantees we all know would be paper thin coming from Russia. Thinking Ukraine can regain its lost land, is naive at best. 7 hours ago, User said: Nothing magical about it. Naive would be better wording. The land Russia has taken, is obviously heavily booby trapped, so an incursion from Ukraine exposes them to multiple threats. Without air superiority, they literally are sending soldiers to their slaughter. Zelensky has also acknowledged this, but obviously must hold appearances as well, or his funding may wane, and pressure to negotiate, mount. 7 hours ago, User said: Certainly not if folks like you have their way. Voters will speak. Especially in the US. Whether they want to continue this, or take their chances with an exit ramp. 7 hours ago, User said: Russia is not interested in peace. They respect NATO or the US army. You can only secure peace by inputting a massive deterrent, once a deal is secured. Leaving Ukraine to their own devices, leaves them open to further attacks. 7 hours ago, User said: How could it have been stopped? The same way it will be stopped now. Via negotiations. The US did not want to negotiate, and preferred tough talk. Ukraine did the same. Like I said. Hard to talk tough, when surrounded by a military. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 (edited) There were no negotiations with Hitler, and for a good reason: they could not produce a solution that would be acceptable to all sides. No: the polarities are too far apart. They just cannot exist together because one will keep coming until it's defeated utterly or takes all. Because in their miserable, useless imitation of existence they have no other goals, know no other purposes than to invade, rob, and burn. Try negotiating with the alien: same thing. And then, there will be little sucker ups who pretend to not see the obvious and throw up many useless, meaningless words that mean nothing and can bring nothing, obviously. More force, more resolve standing up to brutal evil, fascism of our time. Not giving it more, and hoping against all reality that it could somehow keep it from wanting more and coming for more. So: a liar. If the free world listened to them the last time, we would be living in an entirely different world now. Why would have it stopped in Europe and Asia? Why wouldn't it go on until it takes all, if not stopped? Edited June 14 by myata 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 (edited) The questions they can't answer and won't even try to: what is there to stop Hitler, Putin, Xi etc. from wanting more and coming for more, if you give them what they want and won't stop them here and now? No answer, from liars and losers. Edited June 14 by myata 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 3 hours ago, Perspektiv said: They would rather have their country become Gaza, than to lose face like that. Russia will never back down. They went too far. Ukraine will never back down as if they do, they lose their country. Again, history proves otherwise. The war can become too costly, too long, too much for even Russia. 3 hours ago, Perspektiv said: Like I said. The only way out of this, is the exit ramp for Putin. Negotiations that work in the interests of both countries. This includes Ukraine accepting the loss of some land, and the US providing Ukraine with security guarantees we all know would be paper thin coming from Russia. Thinking Ukraine can regain its lost land, is naive at best. No, that is not all you have said. You continue to be wishy washy and flip flop back and forth on saying that this is the only way out. You changed it to "best" after my repeated challenges and now you are back to only. At this point, I conclude you are willing to say anything to support a Russian victory here. You continue to be two-faced as well. You won't support Ukraine now, but sure, you will threaten Russia that we will support them later? It makes zero sense, and you keep ignoring this every time I point it out. 3 hours ago, Perspektiv said: Voters will speak. Especially in the US. Whether they want to continue this, or take their chances with an exit ramp. This is a discussion between you and I and YOUR positions. I am challenging YOU and what YOU are saying. 3 hours ago, Perspektiv said: They respect NATO or the US army. You can only secure peace by inputting a massive deterrent, once a deal is secured. Leaving Ukraine to their own devices, leaves them open to further attacks. Again... You continue to be two-faced as well. You won't support Ukraine now, but sure, you will threaten Russia that we will support them later? It makes zero sense, and you keep ignoring this every time I point it out. 3 hours ago, Perspektiv said: The same way it will be stopped now. Via negotiations. The US did not want to negotiate, and preferred tough talk. Ukraine did the same. Like I said. Hard to talk tough, when surrounded by a military. It gets really old that people like you ignore things already posted. I already shared the link here showing that Ukraine was wanting peace BEFORE Russia invaded. You post this revisionist history here, it is dishonest. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 14 Author Report Share Posted June 14 40 minutes ago, User said: The war can become too costly, too long, too much for even Russia. So you wait until Putin cracks? What then? You demand for the land back and if he says no, you add "or else?" Like I said. Negotiation is the only way out. 42 minutes ago, User said: the only way out. Its the only way out. Am sure there are other means to continue this war, or hopes to end it. One genuine way to end a war when occupied, is negotiation. 43 minutes ago, User said: You won't support Ukraine now It's about ending the war. Both sides will want assurances. Its not about picking sides. Its picking peace. This war should have never happened. 44 minutes ago, User said: Ukraine was wanting peace BEFORE Russia invaded. The US was talking tough, as was Ukraine. All options should have been on the table. Many were not. Now, you have lost 20% of your land, and run a high chance of having to negotiate peace in humiliating fashion, if Trump is elected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 "Peace with Hitler"? Only a liar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 1 minute ago, Perspektiv said: So you wait until Putin cracks? What then? You demand for the land back and if he says no, you add "or else?" Like I said. Negotiation is the only way out. If Putin cracks, you don't have to ask for the land back, you take it back. And it is comical that you are here mocking that, when your bad mockery is literally no better than what you want to do. You want to surrender to Putin and then issue hollow threats. No, that is not what you have said about negotiation. You flip-flop on it being the best after I repeatedly challenged you by saying it was the only way out. I already defeated this claim of yours, and now you are back to making it again. 4 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: Its the only way out. Am sure there are other means to continue this war, or hopes to end it. One genuine way to end a war when occupied, is negotiation. No, it is not the only way out, you are just completely ignoring the discussions we have already had now where I have outlined this already. And you have yet to explain what negotiation means beyond Ukraine surrendering. 4 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: It's about ending the war. Both sides will want assurances. Its not about picking sides. Its picking peace. This war should have never happened. No, for you, it is about surrendering to Russia, because you support Russia winning. Peace is not obtained by surrendering to the aggressors. You only invite more aggression. You are not interested in peace at all. 5 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: The US was talking tough, as was Ukraine. All options should have been on the table. Many were not. Now, you have lost 20% of your land, and run a high chance of having to negotiate peace in humiliating fashion, if Trump is elected. Well, they talk tough to dissuade Russia from invading, but they were all pleading for peace as well. You ignore this because you push lies to support and justify Russia and now you want to surrender to them. You are already expecting them to negotiate peace in a humiliating fashion. You want Ukraine to surrender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 (edited) Here's how it works with this folk: they know, for themselves: that they could never stand up against a bully who looks big and strong. No chance even trying: for them. Then they assume that everyone is like them: a cowardish loser, and make this pronouncement, "can't win". See, they pretend to know the future of the world while its only their own, sore and sucking future they see and babble about. The world so far at least worked exactly opposite to these suckers who would squeak and cower the moment they see a big fist. It's only because of those who had will of their own and stood up to the evil that we're here now. They never got that, just couldn't and so keep peddling their little useless lies. Stinks. Edited June 14 by myata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 3 hours ago, myata said: Here's how it works with this folk: they know, for themselves: that they could never stand up against a bully who looks big and strong. No chance even trying: for them. Then they assume that everyone is like them: a cowardish loser, and make this pronouncement, "can't win". See, they pretend to know the future of the world while its only their own, sore and sucking future they see and babble about. The world so far at least worked exactly opposite to these suckers who would squeak and cower the moment they see a big fist. It's only because of those who had will of their own and stood up to the evil that we're here now. They never got that, just couldn't and so keep peddling their little useless lies. Stinks. Giggle...such a fertile imagination. How mad are you going to be when you find out Ukraine is still losing? But you want THEM...not YOU...to fight on and die. A whole generation of Ukrainian men...dead...crippled or ran away already. You have such guts... Giggle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 3 minutes ago, Nationalist said: How mad are you going to be when you find out Ukraine is still losing? But you want THEM...not YOU...to fight on and die. A whole generation of Ukrainian men...dead...crippled or ran away already. How mad does it make you that Ukraine's getting $50B from the G7, financed by frozen Russian assets? How mad does it make you that Russia is literally paying for the weapons Ukraine will use against them? How's that big offensive going in the North? 🤡 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 14 Author Report Share Posted June 14 4 hours ago, User said: you take it back By force? With what army? Ukraine's? Mathematically it doesn't add up. US and western weapons or not. Nothing is impossible, a la Troy Horse, but insanely unlikely scenario is a Ukraine win army vs army. They did a great job defending, and with assistance can do this long term. But to overwhelm an army that dwarfs theirs in a defensive situation with heavily booby trapped borders to occupied land? I just don't see how. If Ukraine was Israel and Russia was Gaza, obviously you would take it back. Every inch. This is the reverse. You negotiate, and do so in the right timing, to ensure terms meet all parties interests. Putin doesn't want to talk fair, you ratchet the pressure and let him sit until he is, and needs that exit ramp. He's playing poker, and is sweating bullets but needs to hold appearances, or loses leverage. 4 hours ago, User said: No, for you, it is about surrendering to Russia Its about stopping the war. Nothing more, nothing less. 4 hours ago, User said: You are already expecting them to negotiate peace in a humiliating fashion. Under Trump, you expect any less? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 (edited) The suckers/losers could never dream of standing up to a big ugly bully. That's who they are and they think that the whole world is like them. That is the only message they are sending with their babbling, over and over. It's just you, suckers. Nothing to do with the world. In the meahwhile Vlad, their secret macho fetish has drastically downsized his demands believe it, they aren't even addressed to NATO anymore, something happened? A third of the thug's fleet is actively exploring the sea bottom, and counting. Two-year treatment course did that and it's not completed yet as Western aviation is on track to come to Ukraine. Let's see what the next installment will bring can count on Vlad not liking it, with his suckers. They can know only their own, useless and sucking future. Nothing to be proud of, sure. Edited June 14 by myata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 42 minutes ago, Moonbox said: How mad does it make you that Ukraine's getting $50B from the G7, financed by frozen Russian assets? How mad does it make you that Russia is literally paying for the weapons Ukraine will use against them? How's that big offensive going in the North? 🤡 None at all. Sad mostly for the prolonged meat grinder scenes. In the north? Well let's see... Hmmm...not swimmingly. The Ukrainians might hold the line but...it doesn't look promising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 The greatest dictator Vlad also the wet fetish of the macho suckers around the globe suddenly (given that he rules going on three decades) changed his tune on ultimatums to the West. This is real unlike some sucker babbling. Something happened, Vlad? What's the problem with dictating to NATO? Yes suckers we know that you couldn't ever dream of standing up for yours to a big bully thug. You said it clear enough and way too many times already. What else can you add? Does it worth the bytes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 59 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: By force? With what army? Ukraine's? Mathematically it doesn't add up. US and western weapons or not. Yes, by force. War is not a matter of mathematics. This is not a game of risk. It it were just a matter of what is on paper, Russia should have already conquered Ukraine. You continue to falsely presume that Russia is committed to this war forever. You have no idea of knowing that or knowing how long they are willing to keep eating these costs. Why... it is almost as if you support Russia winning. 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: Its about stopping the war. Nothing more, nothing less. No, you can stop the war in many ways; like Nationalist, you just happen to want to stop the war in the way that most benefits Russia by surrendering to them. 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: Under Trump, you expect any less? We are not under Trump, and I am not arguing with Trump. It is your positions and arguments here that are awful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 18 minutes ago, User said: Why... it is almost as if you support Russia winning. Well, his only claim here is that she cannot be beaten. He needs this belief only to have some credibility in his own eyes. That's why it goes incessantly, can't can't can't against the reality needs to convince himself that his only claim cannot be wrong. And if it is, what's left? Cower to every bully that crosses your path and beg for "negotiations", until the next time? Not much. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 45 minutes ago, myata said: The greatest dictator Vlad also the wet fetish of the macho suckers around the globe suddenly (given that he rules going on three decades) changed his tune on ultimatums to the West. This is real unlike some sucker babbling. Something happened, Vlad? What's the problem with dictating to NATO? Yes suckers we know that you couldn't ever dream of standing up for yours to a big bully thug. You said it clear enough and way too many times already. What else can you add? Does it worth the bytes? Dude...you have issues... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 38 minutes ago, User said: Yes, by force. War is not a matter of mathematics. This is not a game of risk. It it were just a matter of what is on paper, Russia should have already conquered Ukraine. You continue to falsely presume that Russia is committed to this war forever. You have no idea of knowing that or knowing how long they are willing to keep eating these costs. Why... it is almost as if you support Russia winning. No, you can stop the war in many ways; like Nationalist, you just happen to want to stop the war in the way that most benefits Russia by surrendering to them. We are not under Trump, and I am not arguing with Trump. It is your positions and arguments here that are awful. You "assume" Russia wants to conquer all of Ukraine. No...more like we see what's happening and can admit it instead of denying it. Trump will do everything in his power to end this war with a peace agreement and you know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 See, nothing but some salivating pretenses of visions of the future as the only argument. Just nothing. QED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 2 minutes ago, Nationalist said: You "assume" Russia wants to conquer all of Ukraine. No...more like we see what's happening and can admit it instead of denying it. Trump will do everything in his power to end this war with a peace agreement and you know it. LOL, I am not assuming anything. That is literally what they tried to do on day one. He thought he could quickly conquer Ukraine and dismantle their government. They are trying to conquer Ukraine to obtain their goals. After they failed miserably to take Ukraine in the first invasion push, Putin started singing a different tune and changing his stated goals. What Russian propaganda will you push here to tell us how noble Putin's intentions were? Let me guess... Russia is so great and wonderful, the great Putin was just trying to get rid of all those Nazi's and poor Russia was lied to about NATO expansion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 1 hour ago, User said: LOL, I am not assuming anything. That is literally what they tried to do on day one. He thought he could quickly conquer Ukraine and dismantle their government. They are trying to conquer Ukraine to obtain their goals. After they failed miserably to take Ukraine in the first invasion push, Putin started singing a different tune and changing his stated goals. What Russian propaganda will you push here to tell us how noble Putin's intentions were? Let me guess... Russia is so great and wonderful, the great Putin was just trying to get rid of all those Nazi's and poor Russia was lied to about NATO expansion... Lol...dude...I see...I analyze...and that's that. Just the other day they missiled Kiev. Power down. Airport probably unusable again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 14 Author Report Share Posted June 14 2 hours ago, User said: War is not a matter of mathematics. War is chess. Moves should be calculated and planned. Failure to plan properly can have catastrophic results. Ask Russia on year one of this war. Sounds like math to me. 2 hours ago, User said: It it were just a matter of what is on paper, Russia should have already conquered Ukraine. They made knuckleheaded mistakes. Almost took the capital. Now they are saving face, by holding onto as much as they can. 2 hours ago, User said: almost as if I support peace. 2 hours ago, User said: in many ways Understanding Ukraine and Russia culturally, and historically, only negotiation will work, but would need to be brokered by a third party. 2 hours ago, User said: We are not under Trump We likely will be in January. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 1 hour ago, myata said: See, nothing but some salivating pretenses of visions of the future as the only argument. Just nothing. QED. Yes well...quelle suprise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 He knows where "he" will be, when he crosses paths with a big and ugly bully: on his knees and sucking That he knows for sure. Much else? Nah. Said it himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 Not going to comment on that bizarre idea of "peace" with the likes of Hitler, ISIS and the bunch what the word could mean in that strange brain. But can one really be this naive, repeating the exact mantra that Putin needs above all these days, or is it more? Really nothing would work for Vlad better than a break in fighting now; however it turns in January, he would win. To stop his ass being kicked, save and replenish war resources, bring in more cannon fodder that he burns like a madman on a rampage. From now and till January he just couldn't dream of a better deal. And lo, we have a flock of birds suddenly singing "peace" here, Vlad's word for lying word. What a surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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