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Who is saved? Jesus says...


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On 1/23/2024 at 3:13 PM, French Patriot said:

I agree with you on grace. God controls whether one will believe or not and thus God damns whoever he wants. Regardless of the scriptures that say he does not lose any souls. 

Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?

Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byHYeHN4ZUQ

Those quotes seem to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.

The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.

If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?

Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?

Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?

I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, --- and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, --- then there is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.

Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.

What is your choice of those two options?

Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.

I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.

What do you think is the truth?

Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

 

The first paragraph is utter buffoonery 

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9 hours ago, Yakuda said:

There isn't a fight. Jesus said what he said. People either accept it reject it. The person I was responding to is the latter. 

I'm inclined to be flexible on these matters. The mind of man cannot fathom even this reality that we are in, let alone understand a creator. 

That's why, it isn't just in your mind or in something written in a book. It is unknown, unseen, like a thief in the night.

For all we know, we may have the whole thing bass ackwards.

Anyway, it hardly matters if the thing is real or not. What matters is the transformative effect it has on the person, on their soul. That transformation is what leads to good works. But can good works also transform people and lead them to become better persons? Certainly seems reasonable. Good works can bring hope and inspiration to the downtrodden, leading their way to goodness themselves by example.

=====
And with that I leave you people this gift, one of my favourite quotes from a book called the Acts of Peter. A non-canonical book you say? Well well well. There must be a good reason for it.

Peter allowed himself to be captured so that he could be crucified, perhaps after the shame he felt for denying Jesus. But interestingly he asked that he be crucified upside down. He explained why.

And when they had hanged him up after the manner he desired, he began again to say: "Ye men unto whom it belongeth to hear, hearken to that which I shall declare unto you at this especial time as I hang here. Learn ye the mystery of all nature, and the beginning of all things, what it was. For the first man, whose race I bear in mine appearance, fell head downwards, and showed forth a manner of birth such as was not heretofore: for it was dead, having no motion. He, then, being pulled down -who also cast his first state down upon the earth- established this whole disposition of all things, being hanged up an image of the creation wherein he made the things of the right hand into left hand and the left hand into right hand, and changed about all the marks of their nature, so that he thought those things that were not fair to be fair, and those that were in truth evil, to be good. Concerning which the Lord saith in a mystery: Unless ye make the things of the right hand as those of the left, and those of the left as those of the right, and those that are above as those below, and those that are behind as those that are before, ye shall not have knowedge of the kingdom. 

This thought, therefore, have I declared unto you; and the figure wherein ye now see me hanging is the representation of that man that first came unto birth. Ye therefore, my beloved, and ye that hear me and that shall hear, ought to cease from your former error and return back again. For it is right to mount upon the cross of Christ, who is the word stretched out, the one and only, of whom the spirit saith: For what else is Christ, but the word, the sound of God? So that the word is the upright beam whereon I am crucified. And the sound is that which crosseth it, the nature of man. And the nail which holdeth the cross-tree unto the upright in the midst thereof is the conversion and repentance of man. 

Now whereas thou hast made known and revealed these things unto me, O word of life, called now by me wood, I give thee thanks, not with these lips that are nailed unto the cross, nor with this tongue by which truth and falsehood issue forth, nor with this word which cometh forth by means of art whose nature is material, but with that voice do I give thee thanks, O King, which is perceived in silence, which is not heard openly, which proceedeth not forth by organs of the body, which goeth not into ears of flesh, which is not heard of corruptible substance, which existeth not in the world, neither is sent forth upon earth, nor written in books, which is owned by one and not by another: but with this, O Jesu Christ, do I give thee thanks, with the silence of a voice, wherewith the spirit that is in me loveth thee, speaketh unto thee, seeth thee, and beseecheth thee. Thou art perceived of the spirit only, thou art unto me father, thou my mother, thou my brother, thou my friend, thou my bondsman, thou my steward: thou art the All and the All is in thee: and thou Art, and there is nought else that is save thee only. 

Unto him therefore do ye also, brethren, flee, and if ye learn that in him alone ye exist, ye shall obtain those things whereof he saith unto you: 'which neither eye hath seen nor ear heard, neither have they entered into the heart of man.' We ask, therefore, for that which thou hast promised to give unto us, O thou undefiled Jesu. We praise thee, we give thee thanks, and confess to thee, glorifying thee, even we men that are yet without strength, for thou art God alone, and none other: to whom be glory now and unto all ages. Amen."

And when the multitude that stood by pronounced the Amen with a great sound, together with the Amen Peter gave up his spirit unto the Lord. 

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On 2/2/2024 at 6:55 PM, OftenWrong said:

I'm inclined to be flexible on these matters. The mind of man cannot fathom even this reality that we are in, let alone understand a creator. 

That's why, it isn't just in your mind or in something written in a book. It is unknown, unseen, like a thief in the night.

For all we know, we may have the whole thing bass ackwards.

Anyway, it hardly matters if the thing is real or not. What matters is the transformative effect it has on the person, on their soul. That transformation is what leads to good works. But can good works also transform people and lead them to become better persons? Certainly seems reasonable. Good works can bring hope and inspiration to the downtrodden, leading their way to goodness themselves by example.

=====
And with that I leave you people this gift, one of my favourite quotes from a book called the Acts of Peter. A non-canonical book you say? Well well well. There must be a good reason for it.

Peter allowed himself to be captured so that he could be crucified, perhaps after the shame he felt for denying Jesus. But interestingly he asked that he be crucified upside down. He explained why.

And when they had hanged him up after the manner he desired, he began again to say: "Ye men unto whom it belongeth to hear, hearken to that which I shall declare unto you at this especial time as I hang here. Learn ye the mystery of all nature, and the beginning of all things, what it was. For the first man, whose race I bear in mine appearance, fell head downwards, and showed forth a manner of birth such as was not heretofore: for it was dead, having no motion. He, then, being pulled down -who also cast his first state down upon the earth- established this whole disposition of all things, being hanged up an image of the creation wherein he made the things of the right hand into left hand and the left hand into right hand, and changed about all the marks of their nature, so that he thought those things that were not fair to be fair, and those that were in truth evil, to be good. Concerning which the Lord saith in a mystery: Unless ye make the things of the right hand as those of the left, and those of the left as those of the right, and those that are above as those below, and those that are behind as those that are before, ye shall not have knowedge of the kingdom. 

This thought, therefore, have I declared unto you; and the figure wherein ye now see me hanging is the representation of that man that first came unto birth. Ye therefore, my beloved, and ye that hear me and that shall hear, ought to cease from your former error and return back again. For it is right to mount upon the cross of Christ, who is the word stretched out, the one and only, of whom the spirit saith: For what else is Christ, but the word, the sound of God? So that the word is the upright beam whereon I am crucified. And the sound is that which crosseth it, the nature of man. And the nail which holdeth the cross-tree unto the upright in the midst thereof is the conversion and repentance of man. 

Now whereas thou hast made known and revealed these things unto me, O word of life, called now by me wood, I give thee thanks, not with these lips that are nailed unto the cross, nor with this tongue by which truth and falsehood issue forth, nor with this word which cometh forth by means of art whose nature is material, but with that voice do I give thee thanks, O King, which is perceived in silence, which is not heard openly, which proceedeth not forth by organs of the body, which goeth not into ears of flesh, which is not heard of corruptible substance, which existeth not in the world, neither is sent forth upon earth, nor written in books, which is owned by one and not by another: but with this, O Jesu Christ, do I give thee thanks, with the silence of a voice, wherewith the spirit that is in me loveth thee, speaketh unto thee, seeth thee, and beseecheth thee. Thou art perceived of the spirit only, thou art unto me father, thou my mother, thou my brother, thou my friend, thou my bondsman, thou my steward: thou art the All and the All is in thee: and thou Art, and there is nought else that is save thee only. 

Unto him therefore do ye also, brethren, flee, and if ye learn that in him alone ye exist, ye shall obtain those things whereof he saith unto you: 'which neither eye hath seen nor ear heard, neither have they entered into the heart of man.' We ask, therefore, for that which thou hast promised to give unto us, O thou undefiled Jesu. We praise thee, we give thee thanks, and confess to thee, glorifying thee, even we men that are yet without strength, for thou art God alone, and none other: to whom be glory now and unto all ages. Amen."

And when the multitude that stood by pronounced the Amen with a great sound, together with the Amen Peter gave up his spirit unto the Lord. 

as I said people take Jesus as his word of they dont. 

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13 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

That's like funda-MENTALISM.  ;)

Jesus often spoke in parables. He said so, if I recall, which means you have to 'get' his metaphors.

Often not always. Jesus is quite clear white often and I notice when people like what Jesus has to say they take it literally but when they don't they insist it's metaphorical. It's amusing actually. 

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23 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

Often not always. Jesus is quite clear white often and I notice when people like what Jesus has to say they take it literally but when they don't they insist it's metaphorical. It's amusing actually. 

If you want to take a literal view of biblical writings go ahead. I'm not going to debate your specific beliefs. It's a free country.

My view is that religion or spirituality is innate and natural in most all people around the world, and they find meaning in their lives through this form of metaphysical dialogue. That's "spirituality". Religion comes in when it is given structure, through a moral code. Like a set of rules or laws we agree upon to bring ethics and civility. I look at outcomes as the main thing.

I personally have moved beyond Christianity to appreciate the religions of mankind from all over the world, which helps me understand humanity better. But I still retain the many things I have learned through it, and 'Jesus' is still my hero, symbolically. To me being 'saved' as you ask in the op is a process, not a moment in time. No one is saved, imo.

 

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3 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

If you want to take a literal view of biblical writings go ahead. I'm not going to debate your specific beliefs. It's a free country.

My view is that religion or spirituality is innate and natural in most all people around the world, and they find meaning in their lives through this form of metaphysical dialogue. That's "spirituality". Religion comes in when it is given structure, through a moral code. Like a set of rules or laws we agree upon to bring ethics and civility. I look at outcomes as the main thing.

I personally have moved beyond Christianity to appreciate the religions of mankind from all over the world, which helps me understand humanity better. But I still retain the many things I have learned through it, and 'Jesus' is still my hero, symbolically. To me being 'saved' as you ask in the op is a process, not a moment in time. No one is saved, imo.

 

I appreciate other religions as well but not all religions are created equal. I agree that being saved is a process and Scripture says as much but the people I started this thread for don't agree. 

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3 hours ago, French Patriot said:

Why, when the messianic concept is so obviously immoral and unjust?

How can Jesus be your hero when he has promised Armageddon and mass murder?

Not in those ways. I agree it's troubling, or write it off as a mystery.

I meant in that he is like a rebel. He stood up to the authorities to try and speak the truth. As a young man I read the bible and was fascinated by this aspect, which made me question all that I knew of him and those who now claim his pedigree. (Priests and churches). He enabled me to believe in a personal, secret relationship between myself and god. That the message is not spoken aloud by a man on his soap box. "If they say to you, 'enter, for Jesus is there.' Do not go. It won't be me. For many a false prophet will come in my name."

Shortly afterward, at age 16 I dreamed I walked around through crowds of people, and a face came out of the crowd and said "You know, Jesus is not a person. He is a way of life."

And my eyes were opened.

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17 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Not in those ways. I agree it's troubling, or write it off as a mystery.

I meant in that he is like a rebel. He stood up to the authorities to try and speak the truth. As a young man I read the bible and was fascinated by this aspect, which made me question all that I knew of him and those who now claim his pedigree. (Priests and churches). He enabled me to believe in a personal, secret relationship between myself and god. That the message is not spoken aloud by a man on his soap box. "If they say to you, 'enter, for Jesus is there.' Do not go. It won't be me. For many a false prophet will come in my name."

Shortly afterward, at age 16 I dreamed I walked around through crowds of people, and a face came out of the crowd and said "You know, Jesus is not a person. He is a way of life."

And my eyes were opened.

And you think that was a benevolent face don't you? 

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On 2/5/2024 at 2:06 PM, OftenWrong said:

 He is a way of life."

And my eyes were opened.

The bible is clear on this for you and I.

The literalists cannot see it because they have been conned into thinking he is a savior, while they ignore the injustice and immorality of that concept.

They intentionally call evil good. What can one tell such a screwed up immoral mind?

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38 minutes ago, French Patriot said:

The bible is clear on this for you and I.

The literalists cannot see it because they have been conned into thinking he is a savior, while they ignore the injustice and immorality of that concept.

They intentionally call evil good. What can one tell such a screwed up immoral mind?

So thinking Jesus is "a" savior is unjust and immoral? Is that right? 

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5 minutes ago, French Patriot said:

Go play your word games elsewhere and stop posting like an a hole.

Those are your words so if anyone is playing word games its you. I merely asked a clarifying question. I've noticed that everytime people like you get challenged you get all whiney. 

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