450 Miles of Reinforced Tunnels Found in Gaza

[Rebound]

You know what wasn’t found in these tunnels? 
Children. 
When Israel was bombed, civilians went into bomb shelters. 
When London was bombed… shelters. 
When Gaza was bombed… shelter denied.  That’s why so many died in the bombings.
 

“One tunnel in Gaza was wide enough for a top Hamas official to drive a car inside. Another stretched nearly three football fields long and was hidden beneath a hospital. Under the house of a senior Hamas commander, the Israeli military found a spiral staircase leading to a tunnel approximately seven stories deep.

Israeli officials and soldiers who have since been in the tunnels — as well as current and former American officials with experience in the region — say the scope, depth and quality of the tunnels built by Hamas have astonished them. Even some of the machinery that Hamas used to build the tunnels, observed in captured videos, has surprised the Israeli military.

The Israeli military now believes there are far more tunnels under Gaza.

Senior Israeli defense officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters, are currently estimating the network is between 350 and 450 miles — extraordinary figures for a territory that at its longest point is only 25 miles. Two of the officials also assessed there are close to 5,700 separate shafts leading down to the tunnels.

the ground campaign has provided a trove of information about Gaza’s underground network. One soldier, speaking on the condition of anonymity for safety reasons, said he oversaw the destruction of about 50 tunnels in Beit Hanoun. All of them were booby-trapped, he said. The soldier, an officer in the combat engineers, said his unit had found bombs hidden in walls and a massive explosive device that was hard-wired to be remotely activated.

Hamas released a video in November showing how it lured a group of five Israeli soldiers to a tunnel entrance in Beit Hanoun and then used a roadside bomb to kill the soldiers.

Israeli military had figured out one of the group’s operating models. The official called it the “triangle.” Whenever the Israeli military finds a school, a hospital or a mosque, soldiers know they can expect to locate an underground tunnel system beneath them, the official said.

Destroying the tunnels is not an easy task, the official said. They need to be mapped, checked for hostages and not just damaged but made irreparable. Recent attempts to demolish the tunnels by flooding them with seawater have failed.

The official estimated it could take years to disable the tunnel system.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/16/us/politics/israel-gaza-tunnels.html

Edited January 16, 2024 by Rebound

[herbie]

Hell, gathering from yesterday's news they didn't even hide the hostages in tunnels.

I guess the Hamas leaders are their only valuable asset.

[robosmith]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

Hell, gathering from yesterday's news they didn't even hide the hostages in tunnels.

I guess the Hamas leaders are their only valuable asset.

They shouldn't put any hostages in tunnels when the IDF is flooding them with sea water.

[godzilla]

2 hours ago, Rebound said:

You know what wasn’t found in these tunnels? 
Children. 
When Israel was bombed, civilians went into bomb shelters. 
When London was bombed… shelters. 
When Gaza was bombed… shelter denied.  That’s why so many died in the bombings.
 

 

um, you put civilians in shelters if the enemy is trying to kill them. is the IDF trying to kill civilians?

if not then you try to keep civilians away from military activity... like Hamas tunnels. which are being subjected to bunker busting, flooding, etc.

was crack Israeli intelligence surprised by these tunnels? surprise! Israeli's are probably asking a lot of questions about the abilities of their security services right now. they couldn't stop a bunch of guys from jumping a wall, or paragliding over. they didn't know how extensive these tunnels are. they refuse to negotiate for hostages so most of them will be dead. all they know how to do is butcher children and create new generations of enemies.

they are good at spending other peoples money. the US provides all of the arms. the UN provides all of the humanitarian stuff. Israel pays soldiers.

Edited January 16, 2024 by godzilla

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, godzilla said:

um, you put civilians in shelters if the enemy is trying to kill them. is the IDF trying to kill civilians?

Well that must be the 'special stupid' i've heard about.

When there's a war on you put your civillians somewhere safe.

What kind of !diot would suggest NOT moving the civilians out of harms way so your soldiers could fight without harming them?

Here's the difference between hamas and anyone else:

[godzilla]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Well that must be the 'special stupid' i've heard about.

When there's a war on you put your civillians somewhere safe.

What kind of !diot would suggest NOT moving the civilians out of harms way so your soldiers could fight without harming them?

Here's the difference between hamas and anyone else:

yeah, we can fix all of this... its called international peace keepers. everyone needs to stop making excuses for the butchering.

ps CdnFox... why does Israel keep populating the west bank?  you never answered that question.

 

[CdnFox]

21 minutes ago, godzilla said:

yeah, we can fix all of this... its called international peace keepers. everyone needs to stop making excuses for the butchering.

Nope - tried that before it failed.  Its useless.

We CAN fix it tho - hamas can surrender tomorrow and accept punishment for what they did, and in an instant no more civvies need to die and much needed supplies will flood into the area.

That's pretty simple. IF they don't - then fight them till they're destroyed. Unfortunately as they hide behind the people that's going to rack up a pretty serious casualty count.  If they care about that they'll surrender

Quote

ps CdnFox... why does Israel keep populating the west bank?  you never answered that question

Pretty sure i did at one point, but the short answer is I don't really care. Separate issue.  If the west bank (and or gaza) wants them to NOT do that then come to the table without hamas and hash out a two state solution.   Isreal was fully into those discussions  till the Palestinian authority got in bed with Hamas, who's stated aim is the destruction of israel.

Most of the world would get behind them if they got serious, committed to peace and denounced any terrorist groups and forbade them to operate in their territories. They'd have their own state in very little time.  They chose to go a different path so this is what they get.

Some people deserve their struggles.  Maybe after this they'll decide it's time for real change and get serious about peace. The ones who are left anyway,.

[godzilla]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

Nope - tried that before it failed.  Its useless.

We CAN fix it tho - hamas can surrender tomorrow and accept punishment for what they did, and in an instant no more civvies need to die and much needed supplies will flood into the area.

That's pretty simple. IF they don't - then fight them till they're destroyed. Unfortunately as they hide behind the people that's going to rack up a pretty serious casualty count.  If they care about that they'll surrender

Pretty sure i did at one point, but the short answer is I don't really care. Separate issue.  If the west bank (and or gaza) wants them to NOT do that then come to the table without hamas and hash out a two state solution.   Isreal was fully into those discussions  till the Palestinian authority got in bed with Hamas, who's stated aim is the destruction of israel.

Most of the world would get behind them if they got serious, committed to peace and denounced any terrorist groups and forbade them to operate in their territories. They'd have their own state in very little time.  They chose to go a different path so this is what they get.

Some people deserve their struggles.  Maybe after this they'll decide it's time for real change and get serious about peace. The ones who are left anyway,.

yeah but... why does Israel keep populating the west bank?

can i suggest that the reason you don't answer is because you don't have an answer that fits your mental model of whats going on. that it does matter. it matters a lot.

so just answer the question. why refuse to answer the question? i'm going to keep asking it.

[CdnFox]

8 minutes ago, godzilla said:

yeah but... why does Israel keep populating the west bank?

Why not, i hear it's lovely.

Quote

can i suggest that the reason you don't answer is because you don't have an answer that fits your mental model of whats going on. that it does matter. it matters a lot.

No, you can't.  That would ignore the honest answer i gave and instead substitute an answer i didn't give that fits YOUR preconceived notions. I'm not here to prop up your echo chamber notions

Quote

so just answer the question. why refuse to answer the question? i'm going to keep asking it.

That's literally my answer  I don't really care so i don't know.  Why wouldn't they?

I'm not all that invested in Israel.  I get that you've "Taken a side" so you think everyone else is deeply emotionally invested.  That's not the case.

THe only reason i care about this at all is that i believe that scumbags and thier supporters who make unprovoked unannounced war on their neighbours by deliberately targeting women and children and driving nails into  their private parts and burniing them alive should be fought until they surrender or die as a warning to other nutbars not to do the same.

If that doesn't happen - how long till they get the idea that they shoudl do it in our country? Look at the protests arlready and how out of hand they are.

Let them surrender and let the israelis crush them under their heels. And there might be a few others in the area who need the same treatment if they keep this up.

[Rebound]

14 hours ago, godzilla said:

um, you put civilians in shelters if the enemy is trying to kill them. is the IDF trying to kill civilians?

if not then you try to keep civilians away from military activity... like Hamas tunnels. which are being subjected to bunker busting, flooding, etc.

was crack Israeli intelligence surprised by these tunnels? surprise! Israeli's are probably asking a lot of questions about the abilities of their security services right now. they couldn't stop a bunch of guys from jumping a wall, or paragliding over. they didn't know how extensive these tunnels are. they refuse to negotiate for hostages so most of them will be dead. all they know how to do is butcher children and create new generations of enemies.

they are good at spending other peoples money. the US provides all of the arms. the UN provides all of the humanitarian stuff. Israel pays soldiers.

With respect, you do not understand the situation at all: Hamas deliberately puts their civilians in harm’s way, as a tactic of warfare.  They want you to blame Israel for the deaths of children. 
 

Could Hamas used their tunnels as bomb shelters? Absolutely, positively YES. 
Did they? Absolutely NO. 
And you need to understand the reason why: Hamas WANTED those children to die. It is their weapon against Israel.  
 

When you see those ads to send food to Gaza, you know they use that money for weapons, right? You can at least figure that much out. So the bigger the crisis, the more money they get. They do not operate by the same rules or morality that we do.  

15 hours ago, robosmith said:

They shouldn't put any hostages in tunnels when the IDF is flooding them with sea water.

Can you explain how Israel fills a tunnel with sea water while simultaneously bombing it, without killing Israeli soldiers on the ground? 
 

Or perhaps reconcile the article’s statement that flooding the tunnels did not work.  

[Rebound]

10 hours ago, godzilla said:

yeah but... why does Israel keep populating the west bank?

can i suggest that the reason you don't answer is because you don't have an answer that fits your mental model of whats going on. that it does matter. it matters a lot.

so just answer the question. why refuse to answer the question? i'm going to keep asking it.

There is no excuse for continuing to build in the West Bank. It is an impediment to long-term peace…. Although Hamas and Islamic Jihad are much larger impediments to long-term peace.

Israel pulled out of Gaza 100% about 25 years ago, and they immediately radicalized and committed themselves to terrorism. There were high hopes that they would develop an economy but their conduct has been atrocious.  It’s heartbreaking. The West Bank is not an excuse for the behavior of the Gazans.  They have never committed to peace; that’s the problem. 

Edited January 17, 2024 by Rebound

[Rebound]

16 hours ago, godzilla said:

um, you put civilians in shelters if the enemy is trying to kill them. is the IDF trying to kill civilians?

if not then you try to keep civilians away from military activity... like Hamas tunnels. which are being subjected to bunker busting, flooding, etc.

was crack Israeli intelligence surprised by these tunnels? surprise! Israeli's are probably asking a lot of questions about the abilities of their security services right now. they couldn't stop a bunch of guys from jumping a wall, or paragliding over. they didn't know how extensive these tunnels are. they refuse to negotiate for hostages so most of them will be dead. all they know how to do is butcher children and create new generations of enemies.

they are good at spending other peoples money. the US provides all of the arms. the UN provides all of the humanitarian stuff. Israel pays soldiers.

As for "targeting children," kindly, please, show me a map of Gaza which points to military, non-civilian locations. Hint: There are none. Deliberately. So that people can wring their hands and cry about the civilian casualties which Hamas has created. 

I pointed out a simple fact to you, and you twisted it all around: Hamas had 450 miles of reinforced tunnels which would make excellent bomb shelters, and they didn't put a single child inside of them. But you still have to twist that into "Israel bad, Hamas good." You somehow imagine that Israel dropped bombons on top of their own soldiers, who were filling tunnels with water? Maybe think that through?

Edited January 17, 2024 by Rebound

[robosmith]

3 hours ago, Rebound said:

Can you explain how Israel fills a tunnel with sea water while simultaneously bombing it, without killing Israeli soldiers on the ground? 

I never said it was "simultaneous" with bombing. Of course they would stop bombing the areas where IDF are filling the tunnels with sea water.

3 hours ago, Rebound said:

Or perhaps reconcile the article’s statement that flooding the tunnels did not work.  

I didn't read the article, it is paywalled. I just use LOGIC. Does the article say why sea water would not flood the tunnels?

Let me guess: too many drains or pockets of air higher than the access tunnels.

Maybe they should have used anesthetic gas to put everyone down there to sleep like I suggested.

[godzilla]

2 hours ago, Rebound said:

As for "targeting children," kindly, please, show me a map of Gaza which points to military, non-civilian locations. Hint: There are none. Deliberately. So that people can wring their hands and cry about the civilian casualties which Hamas has created. 

I pointed out a simple fact to you, and you twisted it all around: Hamas had 450 miles of reinforced tunnels which would make excellent bomb shelters, and they didn't put a single child inside of them. But you still have to twist that into "Israel bad, Hamas good." You somehow imagine that Israel dropped bombons on top of their own soldiers, who were filling tunnels with water? Maybe think that through?

no actually, i'm sorry if i didn't make myself clear. its just that i'm not convinced that the IDF give one rats ass about Palestinian civilians.

its easy to question whether Hamas is a legitimate representative of civilians in Gaza. its not a democracy if there are no elections. in a similar way, its also easy to question whether the current Israeli government is a legitimate representative of civilians in Isreal, they have something like a 15% approval rate at the moment.

if i were a Gaza civilians the last place i would want to be is snuggling with Hamas fighters in tunnels.

But more importantly, i've been suggesting that those people in control are responsible. thats the whole point of the Geneva Conventions. to hold those accountable who are responsible for horrid actions. that would mean Hamas needs to be held accountable for civilian deaths but it also means that the IDF need to held responsible for civilian deaths. these are people who don't understand what human beings realized in the aftermath of the second world war, that the bombing of civilians does NOTHING from a military standpoint. its driven by human butchers who are driven by the rage of revenge.

[godzilla]

4 hours ago, Rebound said:

There is no excuse for continuing to build in the West Bank. It is an impediment to long-term peace…. Although Hamas and Islamic Jihad are much larger impediments to long-term peace.

Israel pulled out of Gaza 100% about 25 years ago, and they immediately radicalized and committed themselves to terrorism. There were high hopes that they would develop an economy but their conduct has been atrocious.  It’s heartbreaking. The West Bank is not an excuse for the behavior of the Gazans.  They have never committed to peace; that’s the problem. 

thank you for being honest about the West Bank.

its important to point out that there was never any "hope" that the people of Gaza would develop an economy or anything else... because they were cut off completely from the outside world. they are not allowed economic routes of trade. they are not allow sea lanes. its an open air prison. they are not allowed to leave. Gazan's who live in other countries may be allowed to in to visit, but they are not guaranteed to be allowed to leave. please do some research on this. they are completely cut off.

and i'd suggest that thats the way Israel has always wanted it. if Israel have desired change in Gaza then they could always appeal to the people of Gaza. direct assistance with business development. help with economic development with other jurisdictions. help setting up independent judicial systems. yes, Hamas would try to destroy any of that but that would make Hamas look bad for Gazans if Gazans really saw that Israel wanted Palestinians to thrive.

But Israel doesn't want Palestine to thrive. look it up. Zionists want the whole area. they are open about it, and they make up a significant power in Israel that they have their way. and they don't want to pay anything for the land. they just want to take it by force. and they want all Palestinians to be a convenient cheap labour force if they exist at all.

this is why I feel for the Palestinian population. they were thrown from their lands by an invading force 70 years ago. they were not taken in anywhere (not their fault) and they continue to be pushed into smaller and smaller spaces. and people blame them for the violent factions that arise from asymmetric warfare that is a natural progression of such a situation.

 

Edited January 17, 2024 by godzilla

[Rebound]

19 hours ago, godzilla said:

thank you for being honest about the West Bank.

its important to point out that there was never any "hope" that the people of Gaza would develop an economy or anything else... because they were cut off completely from the outside world. they are not allowed economic routes of trade. they are not allow sea lanes. its an open air prison. they are not allowed to leave. Gazan's who live in other countries may be allowed to in to visit, but they are not guaranteed to be allowed to leave. please do some research on this. they are completely cut off.

and i'd suggest that thats the way Israel has always wanted it. if Israel have desired change in Gaza then they could always appeal to the people of Gaza. direct assistance with business development. help with economic development with other jurisdictions. help setting up independent judicial systems. yes, Hamas would try to destroy any of that but that would make Hamas look bad for Gazans if Gazans really saw that Israel wanted Palestinians to thrive.

But Israel doesn't want Palestine to thrive. look it up. Zionists want the whole area. they are open about it, and they make up a significant power in Israel that they have their way. and they don't want to pay anything for the land. they just want to take it by force. and they want all Palestinians to be a convenient cheap labour force if they exist at all.

this is why I feel for the Palestinian population. they were thrown from their lands by an invading force 70 years ago. they were not taken in anywhere (not their fault) and they continue to be pushed into smaller and smaller spaces. and people blame them for the violent factions that arise from asymmetric warfare that is a natural progression of such a situation.

 

There are extremist Israelis.  There are extremist Americans & Canadians, too. They don’t speak for everyone. 

TLDR: The Palestinian leadership has never accepted the existence of Israel, pledges to destroy it, and has been attacking Israeli civilians non-stop for 75 years.

Your opinions of the Palestinian people are based in romantic fantasy, and not reality. The Palestinians have been brutally combative towards Israel, Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon.  Palestinian refugees in those nations have tried, in some cases successfully, to overthrow their governments.  The simple fact is that none of those nations want the Palestinians.  They are not peaceful people.  They also assassinated US Presidential candidate Robert Kennedy.  
 

Israel and Egypt spent decades at war, and in 1978, with Jimmy Carter, they forged a lasting peace. Israel and Jordan also spent decades at war, and now they have a lasting peace.  So this demonstrates Israel’s commitment to peace.  
 

In 1998, the Palestinians were offered a permanent and lasting two-state solution. Yasser Arafat refused. He turned it down. He insisted on the so-called “right of return”, which would have eliminated the State of Israel. So, instead of accepting a lasting and permanent peace, he chose everlasting war.  Hamas, today, insists on continuing the war they began on October 7. And you sit at your keyboard thinking that the feminist progressive peace-loving Palestinians will be just oh-so-happy if only Israel leaves them alone.  They will not. These people were ISIS and Taliban before there was ISIS and Taliban.