Hostage politics: a sign of incurable division and Western democracy degradation?

[myata]

I post this in U.S. Federal because there are clear symptoms these days, but they aren't unique to the U.S. and can be observed throughout the Western world.

As a new brutal Axis of tyrants is rising: Russia, with lots and lots of nukes; North Korea with uncounted nukes; Iran, with enough fuel already for a few nukes; and Putin's promise to share them with anyone who will prop their unholy alliance, West, not two full years into the confrontation, is showing clear signs of weakness and division. Hostage politicking, my way or no way is a clear sign of that, that can be observed throughout the Western world these days.

Southern border security can be a valid issue, I have no problem with that. But why, by what logic should it block other essential and critical ones, those that have bi-partisan support, or so it looked? Is Putin and his alliance of dictators a threat to American freedoms and way of life? Do Republicans, and I don't mean MAGA converts understand that?

Going in this direction, there's no good exit. As the resolve and strength of West weakens, more countries will be moving toward the dark side, even tacitly. Encouraged by their gains, and even more by the weakness of the opponent, weakness of a victim is like a red rag to a bully, they will encroach on the West and it won't be able to avoid the fight forever, at the cost of losing all of its credibility entirely. It will be at the time of choosing of the dictators, on their terms and the West, weakened by its won indecisiveness and divided as never. Great shows of unity will not impress the tyrants unless there's real strength of will and resolve behind them. Creak by creak, step by step the world that couldn't gather the stamina and will to stand for its proclaimed values and principles will crumble.

These aren't some dark visions. This has already happened in history. What would it take to avoid this path? Can we, still?

Edited December 6, 2023 by myata

[robosmith]

NATO is more united than ever before and gaining new members. Putin and the dictators have done that.

The division is coming from within, Trump is cozying up with Putin cause he likes authoritarians and fascists.

The next election is the turning point. If Trump wins, so does Putin and the dictators cause Trump wants the personal PAYOFF.

[myata]

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

NATO is more united than ever before and gaining new members

Great words and looks don't make it true. Only the reality can tell that. "NATO united"? At least two ostensibly, members deliberately hold back the ascension of Sweden: for no valid reason at all, just a whim; or cowering to Putin; or hostage politicking. They are on the record praising the master dictator Putin and trying to convince other members that he cannot be defeated. NATO cannot do anything about and looks like wouldn't even be interested to try. While the world is watching.

You like simple picturebook answers but those rarely work in the real word with real, hard problems.

[robosmith]

9 hours ago, myata said:

Great words and looks don't make it true. Only the reality can tell that. "NATO united"? At least two ostensibly, members deliberately hold back the ascension of Sweden: for no valid reason at all, just a whim; or cowering to Putin; or hostage politicking. They are on the record praising the master dictator Putin and trying to convince other members that he cannot be defeated. NATO cannot do anything about and looks like wouldn't even be interested to try. While the world is watching.

You like simple picturebook answers but those rarely work in the real word with real, hard problems.

2 members disagreeing is not unusual and does not mean NATO is not more united than ever and growing with TWO NEW MEMBERS: North Macedonia (2020), and Finland (2023). Agreeing to admit new members is NOT a central mission of NATO.

The rest of NATO is following Biden's lead wrt to Ukraine and Putin.

[myata]

Every Republican opposed advancing the legislation.

"The vote was 49 to 51, as every Senate Republican opposed advancing the legislation. Sixty votes were needed to take up the bill. Republicans in both chambers of Congress had demanded stricter border regulations in exchange for their support, and they said the bill failed to meet their requirements."

Shame. Try to explain to your children and theirs that you had procedural reasons to not stand up to the modern Axis of tyrants as your ancestors did. If there will be posterity to explain to, that is. You chose.

[robosmith]

44 minutes ago, myata said:

Every Republican opposed advancing the legislation.

"The vote was 49 to 51, as every Senate Republican opposed advancing the legislation. Sixty votes were needed to take up the bill. Republicans in both chambers of Congress had demanded stricter border regulations in exchange for their support, and they said the bill failed to meet their requirements."

Shame. Try to explain to your children and theirs that you had procedural reasons to not stand up to the modern Axis of tyrants as your ancestors did. If there will be posterity to explain to, that is. You chose.

I remember when it was Republicans who WANTED illegal immigrants for cheap labor.

Trump has changed that cause he's ONLY concerned about his businesses. Ironically he has been a huge employer of illegal immigrants at HIS PROPERTIES. AKA, a huge hypocrite.

[Michael Hardner]

There was a period when it looked like the "End of History" to use the title of a famous essay.

The approach of strong defense coupled with open markets and an equitable society worked like gangbusters for awhile then slowly was eroded.

Trump's anti China policies are being built on by Biden.  The new approach may be to pull back, fix NATO problems such as Turkey's rogue tendencies... Encourage reform in the Americas and North South trade there rather than China.

And encourage consumer economies by investing in education, higher end jobs, higher wages...

[myata]

Also I don't know what game Biden is playing into. He sat on a huge package of lend lease without using it once, showing extreme caution despite all advice (in 1942-45, to Russia: over 11,000 of just aircraft) now all of a sudden he's out of money and the sky is falling. Democrats will be unwise to repeat the losing scenario: Clinton; Obama for the third time in a row. Find someone young, energetic with a vision of unity to avoid the deadbeat deja vu cycle.

[myata]

Looks increasingly like Biden is outplaying only himself, not Putin. Caution is not a universal answer, neither an explanation. There are no universal answers to existential challenges other than courage and will.

[robosmith]

On 12/7/2023 at 6:58 AM, myata said:

Also I don't know what game Biden is playing into. He sat on a huge package of lend lease without using it once, showing extreme caution despite all advice (in 1942-45, to Russia: over 11,000 of just aircraft) now all of a sudden he's out of money and the sky is falling. Democrats will be unwise to repeat the losing scenario: Clinton; Obama for the third time in a row. Find someone young, energetic with a vision of unity to avoid the deadbeat deja vu cycle.

Who are you suggesting? RFK Jr? 

Whomever has to GET THE VOTES in the PRIMARY.

I'll go with EXPERIENCE.

[myata]

Caution is not the default best answer in a new hostile environment where a firm and decisive act may be needed. Biden is quite obviously struggling to find the right position and act in this environment. The baddies seem to be outplaying him on all sides and his experience has little to help possibly, because it's a new situation that requires resolve and decisiveness. Soon it may be seen as a failure. And I'm only talking about the objective picture, not how it could be spun by his opponents.

Wise words and all-knowing smiles don't cut it when what's needed is a firm act and a visible result. How many more times do we need to stumble here to get it?

Edited December 9, 2023 by myata

[robosmith]

4 minutes ago, myata said:

Caution is not the default best answer in a new hostile environment where a firm and decisive act may be needed. Biden is quite obviously struggling to find the right position and act in this environment. The baddies seem to be outplaying him on all sides and his experience has little to help possibly, because it's a new situation that requires resolve and decisiveness. Soon it may be seen as a failure. And I'm only talking about the objective picture, not how it could be spun by his opponents.

Wise words and all-knowing smiles don't cut it when what's needed is a firm act and a visible result. How many more times do we need to stumble here to get it?

We are not stumbling just cause you imagine it. The economy and recognition of it are turning around. Will likely be gangbusters by next year, IF China does not mess things up in Taiwan.

Joe Biden has accomplished far more than YOU recognize.

[myata]

2 hours ago, robosmith said:

Joe Biden has accomplished far more than YOU recognize.

Then, it can be seen, and touched. Believing it and seeing it aren't necessarily one and the same thing, just in case.

[robosmith]

8 hours ago, myata said:

Then, it can be seen, and touched. Believing it and seeing it aren't necessarily one and the same thing, just in case.

People not paying attention see LITTLE.

[myata]

Well, yeah he just was there at a wrong time. The free world needed a leader, to bring it together and stand up to a rising new Axis of tyrants. But it got a fuzzy soft talking all-knowing couldnt' stop great talking grandpa. Stop Putin with one wise word. Talk out Xi. But of course. Sure. The history doesn't make corrections for intentions and excuses though. May still go in as a resounding great talking failure, at a time of an existential challenge.

Edited December 10, 2023 by myata

[Fluffypants]

On 12/9/2023 at 1:02 AM, robosmith said:

We are not stumbling just cause you imagine it. The economy and recognition of it are turning around. Will likely be gangbusters by next year, IF China does not mess things up in Taiwan.

Joe Biden has accomplished far more than YOU recognize.

 He has accomplished the worse inflation rate since the 70s and also accomplished the worst rate of illegal immigration of all time. Who can forget Afghanistan and that complete cluster.

If you also noticed while Trump was President, no one got invaded but once Biden was in office, Russia invaded Ukraine and we are spending billions upon billions just keeping them from falling over.

Then he brags about it like someone who ran you over with their car and then takes credit for your recovery because they gave you a bandaid.

The fact was the economy was in full recovery mode prior to Biden taking office and all he had to do was get out of the way but he couldn't do that and messed with things which created the issues we have today.

There is a reason people may very well put Trump back in office and that is because Biden is an awful President. The approval rates show that but for some weird reason the leaders in the Democrat party want him to run again.

 

[eyeball]

On 12/5/2023 at 9:44 PM, myata said:

These aren't some dark visions. This has already happened in history. What would it take to avoid this path?

Courage and conviction.

Quote

Can we, still?

I doubt it, I mean, what's in it for any politician or party in the short term?

[Hodad]

21 minutes ago, Fluffypants said:

 He has accomplished the worse inflation rate since the 70s and also accomplished the worst rate of illegal immigration of all time. Who can forget Afghanistan and that complete cluster.

If you also noticed while Trump was President, no one got invaded but once Biden was in office, Russia invaded Ukraine and we are spending billions upon billions just keeping them from falling over.

Then he brags about it like someone who ran you over with their car and then takes credit for your recovery because they gave you a bandaid.

The fact was the economy was in full recovery mode prior to Biden taking office and all he had to do was get out of the way but he couldn't do that and messed with things which created the issues we have today.

There is a reason people may very well put Trump back in office and that is because Biden is an awful President. The approval rates show that but for some weird reason the leaders in the Democrat party want him to run again.

 

Your economic fantasies are one thing, but you people blaming Biden for the Putin's invasion of Ukraine are just insane. 

Trump's lips were conspicuously chapped from kissing Putin's ass. But you seem to think Putin somehow wouldn't have invaded Ukraine if his biggest fan were still in office? That's just nonsense.

Trump losing the election (the election that Putin was trying to help him win again) was a major setback for Putin, because Trump would have simply let him take Ukraine. No support, no international rally. 

[Fluffypants]

1 minute ago, Hodad said:

Your economic fantasies are one thing, but you people blaming Biden for the Putin's invasion of Ukraine are just insane. 

Trump's lips were conspicuously chapped from kissing Putin's ass. But you seem to think Putin somehow wouldn't have invaded Ukraine if his biggest fan were still in office? That's just nonsense.

Trump losing the election (the election that Putin was trying to help him win again) was a major setback for Putin, because Trump would have simply let him take Ukraine. No support, no international rally. 

If that were true why didn't Putin just take it while Trump was President then? Why wait until Biden takes over if he was sooooo much more dangerous to Putin? Its not like Biden was part of an administration that essentially let Putin take a piece of Ukraine before. Oh snap he was.

 

[Hodad]

3 hours ago, Fluffypants said:

If that were true why didn't Putin just take it while Trump was President then? Why wait until Biden takes over if he was sooooo much more dangerous to Putin? Its not like Biden was part of an administration that essentially let Putin take a piece of Ukraine before. Oh snap he was.

 

Putin was invading a sovereign nation, not planning a weekend getaway. It's not like he can say "Oh, no, Trump lost the election, better move up our invasion by a month."

Trump is on record saying he doesn't care who wins, as long as the war in Ukraine ends quickly. And it's not difficult to understand what that would mean in terms of support for Ukraine.

If there's anything that makes us look weak, disorganized and adrift as a nation is the insurrection and attempted coup.

There are nuances to the Crimes situation. Clearly, Ukraine wasn't in a position to effectively fight that war yet. Sanctions were the appropriate response.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Hodad

[robosmith]

3 hours ago, Hodad said:

Your economic fantasies are one thing, but you people blaming Biden for the Putin's invasion of Ukraine are just insane. 

Trump's lips were conspicuously chapped from kissing Putin's ass. But you seem to think Putin somehow wouldn't have invaded Ukraine if his biggest fan were still in office? That's just nonsense.

Trump losing the election (the election that Putin was trying to help him win again) was a major setback for Putin, because Trump would have simply let him take Ukraine. No support, no international rally. 

Putin would not have had to invade Ukraine if Trump were in charge. Trump would have just given him the green light to take it over, including failing to provide the intel that made Ukraine's repelling Russian troops possible.

3 hours ago, Fluffypants said:

If that were true why didn't Putin just take it while Trump was President then? Why wait until Biden takes over if he was sooooo much more dangerous to Putin? Its not like Biden was part of an administration that essentially let Putin take a piece of Ukraine before. Oh snap he was.

 

With Trump in power, Putin knew he didn't have to invade Ukraine to get what he wanted, which was a compliant vassal state. Duh

[myata]

11 hours ago, Hodad said:

Sanctions were the appropriate response.

Meager, barely noticeable ones, in a microscope? For a blatant, unprecedented invasion of a sovereign European nation, since the WWII?

Sure. There's always a great explanation for procrastination, indecision and inaction. Will the history listen though? Will it make allowances, for useless, empty words? You bet it'll do the right thing - the only one that is logical, for the evolution.

[robosmith]

13 minutes ago, myata said:

Meager, barely noticeable ones, in a microscope? For a blatant, unprecedented invasion of a sovereign European nation, since the WWII?

Sure. There's always a great explanation for procrastination, indecision and inaction. Will the history listen though? Will it make allowances, for useless, empty words? You bet it'll do the right thing - the only one that is logical, for the evolution.

Before Crimea, Putin had already invaded Georgia and Moldova, etc

Quote

Which countries has Putin invaded?

Contents

1 Moldova. 1.1 Transnistria (1992–present)

2 Georgia. 2.1 Abkhazia and South Ossetia (2008–present)

3 Ukraine. 3.1 Crimea, parts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts (2014–present) 3.2 Invasion of Ukraine (2022–present)

4 Kuril Islands.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by robosmith

[myata]

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

Before Crimea,

WTF? It's an explanation? Give in to a bloody dictator piece by small piece and watch miracles happen?

[Guest]

20 hours ago, Hodad said:

but you people blaming Biden for the Putin's invasion of Ukraine are just insane. 

I don't think Biden bears any blame for this invasion. 

However, the situation in the middle east, is a testament to how weak Biden is seen.

There have been dozens of brazen attacks on US bases in the middle east.

People see Biden as a joke. People see Trump as crazy.

Imagine, Kim Jung Un met with him to avoid catastrophic mistakes.

Him retaliating by hitting a weapons depot after major enemy fire hitting yet another base, comes across as a passive aggressive response.

This only amplifies the message of, if you keep hurting us, we will keep denouncing it, and potentially eventually find our balls and retaliate cautiously, because we're scared to do so.

Trump projects a power few will want to challenge, but an intelligence level many will want to exploit.