Does what Trump "believe" matter?

[CrakHoBarbie]

I've heard a load of far right zealots claim that since Donald "believed" his property valuations were correct, then Donald cannot suffer legal consequences.

To be clear, the issue is that Donald inflated the value of his properties to get loans, then deflated those same values come tax time.

So, no.... It doesn't matter what Donald "believes".

He is guilty as sin.

[Rebound]

I read about the value of Mar-a-Lago, which is only one of many properties that he inflated. Trump’s claim that the club is worth “billions” is utterly false.

Trump was losing money on Mar-a-Lago and unable to pay the property tax bill, so he agreed to a deed restriction which limits Mar-a-Lago to use only as a private club, limited to I believe just 500 members.  
 

This is why Mar-a-Lago is worth so little. It cannot ever be resold as anything other than a country club, which is basically a hotel/restaurant that has a lot of upkeep and fees to sustain its operation. The place makes about $20 million a year gross, much less net, of course. This is why it’s only worth about $20 million and it will never sell for hundreds of millions or a billion dollars. 500 members maximum. 
 

[CrakHoBarbie]

31 minutes ago, Rebound said:

I read about the value of Mar-a-Lago, which is only one of many properties that he inflated. Trump’s claim that the club is worth “billions” is utterly false.

Trump was losing money on Mar-a-Lago and unable to pay the property tax bill, so he agreed to a deed restriction which limits Mar-a-Lago to use only as a private club, limited to I believe just 500 members.  
 

This is why Mar-a-Lago is worth so little. It cannot ever be resold as anything other than a country club, which is basically a hotel/restaurant that has a lot of upkeep and fees to sustain its operation. The place makes about $20 million a year gross, much less net, of course. This is why it’s only worth about $20 million and it will never sell for hundreds of millions or a billion dollars. 500 members maximum. 
 

He has roamed the halls of justice with impunity for soooo long.

But, sadly for him, all things must pass.

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/tto_release_properties_addendum_-_final.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjMrZXFw7yCAxXDOEQIHXN3Ah4QFnoECAoQAg&usg=AOvVaw1tmFfPnRxzGKwNUnMmCWha

[West]

1 hour ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

I've heard a load of far right zealots claim that since Donald "believed" his property valuations were correct, then Donald cannot suffer legal consequences.

To be clear, the issue is that Donald inflated the value of his properties to get loans, then deflated those same values come tax time.

So, no.... It doesn't matter what Donald "believes".

He is guilty as sin.

Are you dumb? 

It's not what Trump believes. The banks would do their own appraisal on his property before signing off on a loan.

 

[CrakHoBarbie]

9 minutes ago, West said:

Are you dumb? 

It's not what Trump believes. The banks would do their own appraisal on his property before signing off on a loan.

 

You poor gullible fool.

Donald inflated the values for loans and deflated the values for taxes.

These are documented facts.

See below:

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/tto_release_properties_addendum_-_final.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjMrZXFw7yCAxXDOEQIHXN3Ah4QFnoECAoQAg&usg=AOvVaw1tmFfPnRxzGKwNUnMmCWha

[CrakHoBarbie]

17 minutes ago, West said:

 banks would do their own appraisal on his property before signing off on a loan.

 

Trump’s loans were not approved through the same method as your house or commercial property where the bank’s appraisal is the most important factor. Paragraphs 563 and 564 of the lawsuit explain why:

563. Starting in 2011 the relationship with Deutsche Bank was revitalized when Mr. Trump and the Trump Organization initiated a relationship with bankers in the Private Wealth Management (“PWM”) division of Deutsche Bank, which enabled them to obtain more favorable terms than they could have received through the CRE division by having Mr. Trump personally guarantee the loans based on his net worth as reflected in his Statements of Financial Condition.

564. In essence, rather than obtain credit facilities through the wing of Deutsche Bank with an expertise in commercial real estate, Mr. Trump began to seek funds from a wing of Deutsche Bank focused on servicing ultrawealthy clients. Hence, Mr. Trump’s personal guaranty, and his representations regarding his finances that backed up that guaranty, featured prominently in Mr. Trump’s loan transactions through the PWM wing of Deutsche Bank.

This wasn’t like any bank loan process you’re familiar with, so you can’t assume it works the same way.

The banks were approving loans based on all his holdings and the claims he made about them — not just on the property he wanted a loan for.

The banks were not doing their own appraisals on every asset and liability Trump had anywhere in the world, they were relying on other appraisals he provided, and the financial statements he provided. This is where many of the frauds occurred.

[Rebound]

33 minutes ago, West said:

Are you dumb? 

It's not what Trump believes. The banks would do their own appraisal on his property before signing off on a loan.

 

Maybe the banks did their own appraisals, and maybe they didn’t, but the court has already ruled that the Trump organization committed fraud. The independent appraiser might believe the statement that the penthouse was 30,000 square feet, when Trump knew it was 10,000. They might not have found that certain deed and rent control restrictions were in place on certain properties. This is why you are legally obligated to honestly disclose everything on these applications.  
 

The Trump Organization submitted these evaluations to banks repeatedly, and they grossly overstated the values of dozens of properties over and over. It’s not like they fudged the numbers by 10 or 20% of one property one time. This was far beyond an honest mistake.  It was deliberate, and the testimony shows that a wide number of Trump employees were in on it and aware of it.  
 

I just explained why Mar-A-Lago is worth only $20 million-ish, yet Trump continues to lie about its value.  

Edited November 11, 2023 by Rebound

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

I've heard a load of far right zealots

Which for you means they're right of Castro.....

Quote

claim that since Donald "believed" his property valuations were correct, then Donald cannot suffer legal consequences.

Fraud does require mens rea. You have to knowingly misrepresent something.  So.. while you're being a little general there it's true in as much as he has to believe ALL the information passed over was substantially accurate.  If he does then it's not fraud.

Quote

To be clear, the issue is that Donald inflated the value of his properties to get loans, then deflated those same values come tax time.

No, that's not the issue. That's already been proven beyond a doubt - the taxable amount is not calculated at ALL the same way, it will be radically different  Also the tax assessment comes from the gov't not from trump.

The issue is that he provided information about the value, including the valuation and data about the property, which may have been inaccurate. Certainly the size of the property is.  It was noted that the tax assesment was smaller which was presented as evidence that his valuaton was too high but every expert has said "of course it was". 

 

Quote

So, no.... It doesn't matter what Donald "believes".

It entirely matters.  Sorry kiddo  

The valuation itself is pretty hard to argue. Normally you would value it by looking at what comparable properties actualy sold for - but this proterty is unique and that's not possible.

Things like sq footage are far less 'etherial'.  It's been said he gave false sq footage.  That can absolutely happen by accident and that's something we see ALL the time in real estate markets - it's not like he would have gone and measured himself. But - having said that if he had been reasonably informed that the nubmers were wrong and still kept putting them out then that's an issue.

And of course there's whether the banks were given a chance to verify. There is a reasonable amount of due diligence expected in a transaction.

Now - lets remember this is a zero harm case.  Nobody is complaining, the lenderwas paid back on time, the lender is not questioning the accuracy and was happy with the valuation.

So what this is would be a democrat friendly prosecutor digging and looking for anything he could possibly twist into being a crime and then charging for that.

Whether he's guilty under the laws of that state will be a matter for the legal system to decide.  But its highly questionable if he was guilty at all, and certainly this trial isnt' about him committing a 'crime', it's about technical violations that have no basis in the real world.

 

 

Now - i know that's a lot of words for you so i'll keep it simple here at the end - You stupid, trump has to know to be  guilty, this is witchhunt   

Edited November 11, 2023 by CdnFox

[West]

11 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Maybe the banks did their own appraisals, and maybe they didn’t, but the court has already ruled that the Trump organization committed fraud. The independent appraiser might believe the statement that the penthouse was 30,000 square feet, when Trump knew it was 10,000. They might not have found that certain deed and rent control restrictions were in place on certain properties. This is why you are legally obligated to honestly disclose everything on these applications.  
 

The Trump Organization submitted these evaluations to banks repeatedly, and they grossly overstated the values of dozens of properties over and over. It’s not like they fudged the numbers by 10 or 20% of one property one time. This was far beyond an honest mistake.  It was deliberate, and the testimony shows that a wide number of Trump employees were in on it and aware of it.  
 

I just explained why Mar-A-Lago is worth only $20 million-ish, yet Trump continues to lie about its value.  

Yeah well this judge is clearly an f'd up lunatic. 

19 minutes ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

Trump’s loans were not approved through the same method as your house or commercial property where the bank’s appraisal is the most important factor. Paragraphs 563 and 564 of the lawsuit explain why:

563. Starting in 2011 the relationship with Deutsche Bank was revitalized when Mr. Trump and the Trump Organization initiated a relationship with bankers in the Private Wealth Management (“PWM”) division of Deutsche Bank, which enabled them to obtain more favorable terms than they could have received through the CRE division by having Mr. Trump personally guarantee the loans based on his net worth as reflected in his Statements of Financial Condition.

564. In essence, rather than obtain credit facilities through the wing of Deutsche Bank with an expertise in commercial real estate, Mr. Trump began to seek funds from a wing of Deutsche Bank focused on servicing ultrawealthy clients. Hence, Mr. Trump’s personal guaranty, and his representations regarding his finances that backed up that guaranty, featured prominently in Mr. Trump’s loan transactions through the PWM wing of Deutsche Bank.

This wasn’t like any bank loan process you’re familiar with, so you can’t assume it works the same way.

The banks were approving loans based on all his holdings and the claims he made about them — not just on the property he wanted a loan for.

The banks were not doing their own appraisals on every asset and liability Trump had anywhere in the world, they were relying on other appraisals he provided, and the financial statements he provided. This is where many of the frauds occurred.

This judge is just making shit up as he goes along. He's got the mental disease known as Trump Derangement Syndrome. 

 

Times a ticking on guys like this judge who'll be locked up once Donnie wins re-election. He's already promised to go scorched earth on crazies like this judge

[West]

33 minutes ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

You poor gullible fool.

Donald inflated the values for loans and deflated the values for taxes.

These are documented facts.

See below:

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/tto_release_properties_addendum_-_final.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjMrZXFw7yCAxXDOEQIHXN3Ah4QFnoECAoQAg&usg=AOvVaw1tmFfPnRxzGKwNUnMmCWha

Your lack of understanding on how taxes are appraised is pretty evident. Donnie doesn't appraise his property value for taxes any more than a bank would allow him to make up a number to get a loan. 

Only unintelligent people believe otherwise 

[CrakHoBarbie]

11 minutes ago, West said:

 

This judge is just making shit up as he goes along. He's got the mental disease known as Trump Derangement Syndrome. 

So you think the Judge manufactured the evidence that got Donald indicted?

You poor gullible buffoon.

You are completely delusional.

Read below to see how indictments really work you incompetent pinhead 

https://www.justice.gov/usao/justice-101/charging

[Rebound]

15 minutes ago, West said:

Yeah well this judge is clearly an f'd up lunatic. 

This judge is just making shit up as he goes along. He's got the mental disease known as Trump Derangement Syndrome. 

 

Times a ticking on guys like this judge who'll be locked up once Donnie wins re-election. He's already promised to go scorched earth on crazies like this judge

Trump could have appealed the summary judgement and he can appeal anything else.  So if it’s true that this is a rogue judge, the decision will be overturned. For some reason, large verdicts are almost always reduced on appeal.  
 

But you haven’t made a legal argument. The law is the law and Trump broke it. So your side has nothing to fall back on except to call the judge crazy. You need to tell a court of appeal more than that.  

[CrakHoBarbie]

13 minutes ago, West said:

Your lack of understanding on how taxes are appraised is pretty evident. Donnie doesn't appraise his property value for taxes any more than a bank would allow him to make up a number to get a loan. 

Only unintelligent people believe otherwise 

Again, just read the lawsuit

Talking with you is like talking to a petulant toddler

Trump’s loans were not approved through the same method as your house or commercial property where the bank’s appraisal is the most important factor. Paragraphs 563 and 564 of the lawsuit explain why:

563. Starting in 2011 the relationship with Deutsche Bank was revitalized when Mr. Trump and the Trump Organization initiated a relationship with bankers in the Private Wealth Management (“PWM”) division of Deutsche Bank, which enabled them to obtain more favorable terms than they could have received through the CRE division by having Mr. Trump personally guarantee the loans based on his net worth as reflected in his Statements of Financial Condition.

564. In essence, rather than obtain credit facilities through the wing of Deutsche Bank with an expertise in commercial real estate, Mr. Trump began to seek funds from a wing of Deutsche Bank focused on servicing ultrawealthy clients. Hence, Mr. Trump’s personal guaranty, and his representations regarding his finances that backed up that guaranty, featured prominently in Mr. Trump’s loan transactions through the PWM wing of Deutsche Bank.

This wasn’t like any bank loan process you’re familiar with, so you can’t assume it works the same way.

The banks were approving loans based on all his holdings and the claims he made about them — not just on the property he wanted a loan for.

The banks were not doing their own appraisals on every asset and liability Trump had anywhere in the world, they were relying on other appraisals he provided, and the financial statements he provided. This is where many of the frauds occurred.

[CdnFox]

5 minutes ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

Again, just read the lawsuit

Talking with you is like talking to a petulant toddler

Trump’s loans were not approved through the same method as your house or commercial property where the bank’s appraisal is the most important factor. Paragraphs 563 and 564 of the lawsuit explain why:

563. Starting in 2011 the relationship with Deutsche Bank was revitalized when Mr. Trump and the Trump Organization initiated a relationship with bankers in the Private Wealth Management (“PWM”) division of Deutsche Bank, which enabled them to obtain more favorable terms than they could have received through the CRE division by having Mr. Trump personally guarantee the loans based on his net worth as reflected in his Statements of Financial Condition.

564. In essence, rather than obtain credit facilities through the wing of Deutsche Bank with an expertise in commercial real estate, Mr. Trump began to seek funds from a wing of Deutsche Bank focused on servicing ultrawealthy clients. Hence, Mr. Trump’s personal guaranty, and his representations regarding his finances that backed up that guaranty, featured prominently in Mr. Trump’s loan transactions through the PWM wing of Deutsche Bank.

This wasn’t like any bank loan process you’re familiar with, so you can’t assume it works the same way.

The banks were approving loans based on all his holdings and the claims he made about them — not just on the property he wanted a loan for.

The banks were not doing their own appraisals on every asset and liability Trump had anywhere in the world, they were relying on other appraisals he provided, and the financial statements he provided. This is where many of the frauds occurred.

Barbie - i've already explained why you're wrong in detail. 

Now - this is not a criminal trial.  This is a civil case.  So this isn't criminal 'fraud' we're talking about, this is different.

So the only difference here is the bar the evidence has to reach.  A judge just has to be convinced that the charge is likely true.  This is often referred to as balance of probabilities or preponderance of the evidence, i don't think it even needs to meet "clear and convincing" and is miles away from 'beyond reasonable doubt"

But the judge does have to conclude that trump did not believe that the figures he presented were true.

[West]

19 minutes ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

Again, just read the lawsuit

Talking with you is like talking to a petulant toddler

Trump’s loans were not approved through the same method as your house or commercial property where the bank’s appraisal is the most important factor. Paragraphs 563 and 564 of the lawsuit explain why:

563. Starting in 2011 the relationship with Deutsche Bank was revitalized when Mr. Trump and the Trump Organization initiated a relationship with bankers in the Private Wealth Management (“PWM”) division of Deutsche Bank, which enabled them to obtain more favorable terms than they could have received through the CRE division by having Mr. Trump personally guarantee the loans based on his net worth as reflected in his Statements of Financial Condition.

564. In essence, rather than obtain credit facilities through the wing of Deutsche Bank with an expertise in commercial real estate, Mr. Trump began to seek funds from a wing of Deutsche Bank focused on servicing ultrawealthy clients. Hence, Mr. Trump’s personal guaranty, and his representations regarding his finances that backed up that guaranty, featured prominently in Mr. Trump’s loan transactions through the PWM wing of Deutsche Bank.

This wasn’t like any bank loan process you’re familiar with, so you can’t assume it works the same way.

The banks were approving loans based on all his holdings and the claims he made about them — not just on the property he wanted a loan for.

The banks were not doing their own appraisals on every asset and liability Trump had anywhere in the world, they were relying on other appraisals he provided, and the financial statements he provided. This is where many of the frauds occurred.

The lawsuit is ridiculous. That's WHAT I AM TELLING YOU. 

They've got a partisan attorney and a partisan judge imposing DELUSIONS on the public. 

And Trump REPAID all his loans. 

The banks aren't even going after him for false statements. It's a RETARDED prosecutor who is doing so because HE IS A POLITICIAN OF AN OPPOSING POLITICAL PARTY

Edited November 11, 2023 by West

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, West said:

The lawsuit is ridiculous. That's WHAT I AM TELLING YOU. 

They've got a partisan attorney and a partisan judge imposing DELUSIONS on the public. 

THat's not hard to do in a civil case.

And the anti-trump media outlets tend to leave the 'civil' part out and make it sound as if he's being tried for actual fraud, which is an entirely different beast.

A bias judge can decide he's committed civil 'fraud' just because his name is trump.  It's not like a criminal trial.

[CrakHoBarbie]

2 hours ago, West said:

The lawsuit is ridiculous. That's WHAT I AM TELLING YOU. 

They've got a partisan attorney and a partisan judge imposing DELUSIONS on the public. 

And Trump REPAID all his loans. 

The banks aren't even going after him for false statements. It's a RETARDED prosecutor who is doing so because HE IS A POLITICIAN OF AN OPPOSING POLITICAL PARTY

 

It's funny how Donald is claiming the judge is the one victimizing him, but the judge didn't write the lawsuit against him. 

Donald knows he has already lost this lawsuit.

It's a done deal 

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

[CdnFox]

44 minutes ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

 

It's funny how Donald is claiming the judge is the one victimizing him, but the judge didn't write the lawsuit against him.

No, the prosecutor did.  WHich is interesting in and of itself - he's not being sued by anyone involved in the loans. They're all happy. This is a lawsuit by the prosecutor alone.

But - the judge DID allow it and he has agreed to assume donald is guilty without that part going to trial.  Because it's a civil trial they don't have to prove he's guilty so the judge just said fine - lets just assume he's guilty without any trial or arguments from trump. Now we'll see HOW guilty.

So from that perspective the judge is being pretty unfair - didn't even listen to any arguments about whether the info he had been presented was correct or accurate

[CrakHoBarbie]

36 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

No, the prosecutor did.  WHich is interesting in and of itself - he's not being sued by anyone involved in the loans. They're all happy. This is a lawsuit by the prosecutor alone.

But - the judge DID allow it and he has agreed to assume donald is guilty without that part going to trial.  Because it's a civil trial they don't have to prove he's guilty so the judge just said fine - lets just assume he's guilty without any trial or arguments from trump. Now we'll see HOW guilty.

So from that perspective the judge is being pretty unfair - didn't even listen to any arguments about whether the info he had been presented was correct or accurate

The prosecutor didn't inflate and deflated properties for financial gain.

Donald did.

Don't worry. You'll see the outcome even though, like a child, you can't grasp the ramifications of donalds actions.

 

[CdnFox]

28 minutes ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

The prosecutor didn't inflate and deflated properties for financial gain.

Donald did.

 

Well no, he didn't.  even the prosecution and the judge isn't saying that.

Why does everything have to be explained to you 100 times?

The claim is that donald had inflated the price.  The GOV"T assesses his property for taxes, donald doesn't.  And the prosecutor claimed the fact the assessment was lower is proof that donald's assessment is too high.  Which turns out to be not an accurate statement at all.

Now - i've explained that to you.  Others here have explained it.  Yet you keep repeating the lie.

Do you feel the need to lie because you know you're in the wrong? Is that it?

Wow - looks like even donald haters like you know there's something wrong here if you feel the need to lie to cover their tracks  

[West]

8 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Well no, he didn't.  even the prosecution and the judge isn't saying that.

Why does everything have to be explained to you 100 times?

The claim is that donald had inflated the price.  The GOV"T assesses his property for taxes, donald doesn't.  And the prosecutor claimed the fact the assessment was lower is proof that donald's assessment is too high.  Which turns out to be not an accurate statement at all.

Now - i've explained that to you.  Others here have explained it.  Yet you keep repeating the lie.

Do you feel the need to lie because you know you're in the wrong? Is that it?

Wow - looks like even donald haters like you know there's something wrong here if you feel the need to lie to cover their tracks  

They are just trolling. They know their delusions aren't built on reality yet alas here we are

[West]

9 hours ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

The prosecutor didn't inflate and deflated properties for financial gain.

Donald did.

This is completely moronic

 

10 hours ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

It's funny how Donald is claiming the judge is the one victimizing him, but the judge didn't write the lawsuit against him. 

The judge is a far left looney tune tool who's abusing his powers to try and sway and election and STEALING Donnie's hard earned money. 

[CrakHoBarbie]

5 hours ago, West said:

This is completely moronic

 

The judge is a far left looney tune tool who's abusing his powers to try and sway and election and STEALING Donnie's hard earned money. 

Your devotion to a raging piece of shit like Donald is heartwarming.

[Nationalist]

 

[CdnFox]

49 minutes ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

Your devotion to a raging piece of shit like Donald is heartwarming.

Your psychotic fear o him to the point of self delusion is concerning.