Paul Martin doesn't deserve this...

[fellowtraveller]

Stephen Harper is not winning this campaign, in any sense at all. Canadians are being dragged screaming to Harper. Harper is a last resort.

Rather, the Liberal Party is losing this campaign. Why? Because a whole host of (mostly English-Canadian) Chretien/Trudeau insiders have decided that they don't like Paul Martin. They don't like the way Martin exposed the way these insiders operated the country. The Liberal Party is committing suicide in a civil war.

Kinsella and Copps may feel happy on 23 January if Martin loses. But they will wake up to a country fundamentally shifted, just as a tectonic shift occurred in October 1995.

Kinsella and Copps are tacticians, with no understanding at all for strategy.

----

Paul Martin is trying to hold this leaky bag together, and he's getting no credit for his efforts.

It has little to do with Copps, Kinsella or any English/French rift.

The reality is that Chretien/Martin have jointly managed to thrown out their power base in Quebec, and with it their hopes of forming a majority. This is the reason, as I've been saying for months, that Martin will be gone within 90 days - win or lose. The Bloc are the main beneficiaries, though in the last couple of weeks a new wrinkle has come up.

Surely the most disturbing poll number of all for the Liberals , in the longer term, is the bump in support for the CPC in Quebec. If you are a federalist, it is the only encouraging crumb of data that has appeared in a very long time.

And what does this mean?:

Paul Martin doesn't deserve this..., The End of Canada as we know it

like the old saying goes: you reap what you sow.

Nobdoy has victimzed Martin or the Liberals, they are getting far less than they deserve and much later. For the sake of Canada, I hope it is not too late.

[Argus]

Stephen Harper is not winning this campaign, in any sense at all. Canadians are being dragged screaming to Harper. Harper is a last resort.

Rather, the Liberal Party is losing this campaign. Why? Because a whole host of (mostly English-Canadian) Chretien/Trudeau insiders have decided that they don't like Paul Martin. They don't like the way Martin exposed the way these insiders operated the country. The Liberal Party is committing suicide in a civil war.

Kinsella and Copps may feel happy on 23 January if Martin loses. But they will wake up to a country fundamentally shifted, just as a tectonic shift occurred in October 1995.

Kinsella and Copps are tacticians, with no understanding at all for strategy.

----

Paul Martin is trying to hold this leaky bag together, and he's getting no credit for his efforts.

What has Martin done that is good? Anything which took intelligence and integrity? What has he done over the past few years that can be admired by anyone sensible? What did he do as Prime Minsiter which would cause Canadians to believe he was the guy to lead them?

Who is Paul Martin Junior? A man born to a powerful, politically connected father who go the best of everything from day one. He worked industriously, and dishonourably, many would say, behind the scenes, to wrest control of the Liberal Party from Chretien. And once in control did little or nothing (much like Chretien did over the previous years). All his talk about a new openness, a new honesty, adressing the "democratic deficit" turned to ashes. He became a secrecu obsessed, micromanaging dictator who abrogated all power to himself. Yet for all that power he found it extaordinarily difficult to make a decision on anything ,and had no vision for where he wanted to lead Canada.

Martin is a man with no real credentials except that of a careful financial manager. But he threw that away over the past couple of years, spending money like a drunken sailor. The federal budget over the past three years has risen at a higher rate than at any point in the past 50 years, even exceeding the big budget increases under Trudeau.

To suggest the Conservatives have not run an excellent campaign is simply foolishness. They have been on-message, putting out information, policies and priorities almost daily. While the Liberals have no new ideas to speak of, and have been reacting instead of acting. When they do announce policies they often sound foolish or repetative, such as defending health care (again!) and a new child care program (Again!) and fighting crime (Liberals!?).

And the only real thing which gives people pause about the Conservatives is the demonization of Harper, and the fact he is not, in a television age, able to project charisma. Like, say, Mulroney? Is that who Canadians want? Give me a soft-spoken, but intelligent and capable man over a blowhard shouting his love for Canada any day.

[tml12]

"We are taking your complaint very seriously and have referred it to the appropriate people within the SEC," legal counsel, Ann H. Sulzberg wrote in an e-mail to Wasylycia-Leis.

Sulzberg wrote that the SEC "generally conducts its investigations on a confidential basis and neither confirms nor denies the existence of an investigation unless we bring charges against someone involved."

U.S. market watchdog looking into income trust affair

Liberal-haters will see this as an indictment, others will see it as a smear campaign in the midst of an election.

Did Harper really say that? It's another good reason to vote for him (though for the record I am sure he was only talking about Joe Canadian Liberal voters).

[August1991]

I already posted and exposed that form letter for what it is. A form letter, that promises nothing and confirms nothing other than receipt of the complaint.

HP, the SEC has made plain that it would not issue any statement (excepting the 'form letter') unless it was proceeding with formal charges. You are asking for the impossible, and then shouting victory when the impossible doesn't happen.

[August1991]

What has Martin done that is good? Anything which took intelligence and integrity? What has he done over the past few years that can be admired by anyone sensible? What did he do as Prime Minsiter which would cause Canadians to believe he was the guy to lead them?

Argus, you don't like Paul Martin and it seems you don't like the Liberals in general. Fine.

Far be it from me to defend Paul Martin but I would prefer to see him lose power for his own faults than for those imagined.

The Liberal Party is involved in a Civil War and this makes it difficult for Martin to win an election. This should be obvious to anyone remotely politically aware in Canada.

Let's be honest. Harper is not popular and people are not voting for him with alacrity. Despite all the scandals inherent in the Liberal Civil War, the two parties are in a deadheat.

As to the End of Canada as we know it, this war within the Liberal Party involves the Kinsella/Copps/English-Canada Trudeau types and the Lapierre/Martin/co-operative federalism types.

I'm sorry to give once again a Quebec spin to a federal issue but the status of Quebec within the Canadian federation has been the elephant in the living room for the past 30 years or so. This elephant gave federal politics the BQ and it is now breaking up the federal Liberal Party.

[tml12]

What has Martin done that is good? Anything which took intelligence and integrity? What has he done over the past few years that can be admired by anyone sensible? What did he do as Prime Minsiter which would cause Canadians to believe he was the guy to lead them?

Argus, you don't like Paul Martin and it seems you don't like the Liberals in general. Fine.

Far be it from me to defend Paul Martin but I would prefer to see him lose power for his own faults than for those imagined.

The Liberal Party is involved in a Civil War and this makes it difficult for Martin to win an election. This should be obvious to anyone remotely politically aware in Canada.

Let's be honest. Harper is not popular and people are not voting for him with alacrity. Despite all the scandals inherent in the Liberal Civil War, the two parties are in a deadheat.

As to the End of Canada as we know it, this war within the Liberal Party involves the Kinsella/Copps/English-Canada Trudeau types and the Lapierre/Martin/co-operative federalism types.

I'm sorry to give once again a Quebec spin to a federal issue but the status of Quebec within the Canadian federation has been the elephant in the living room for the past 30 years or so. This elephant gave federal politics the BQ and it is now breaking up the federal Liberal Party.

Everything you say is true. I don't agree 100% with Harper. But I do believe we need him to govern Canada. I don't hate Paul Martin. He is either an ignorant dummy or was too self-assured for his own good. I do despise Chretien. I think he was so arrogant and put such a negative emphasis in his dictatorial style of governing that it has jaded the Canadian electorate for a long time in the future.

Look at the horrid state of Canadian federalism today. The west is alienated, Quebec separatism is at an all-time high, Canada-U.S. relations just plain suck, and people in the GTA just don't seem to care about any of it.

So no, I am not a neo-con. But frankly, I don't think it is a bad idea to give power to Harper even if he is a neo-con. He is the only one who can realistically govern Canada with a fresh and clean idea for Canadian federalism. Re-electing the Liberals would be apocalyptic and drastic. Canada might not survive it.

[shoop]

Quoted is the biggest contradiction in your post.

The Liberals are in a civil war as a direct cause of his own actions. The Martin *board* undermined Chretien for years and forced him out of office "early".

Then, instead of reaching out to the Chretienites he forced them out of power and his minions badmouthed them. (Sheila Copps, John Manley, Warren Kinsella.)

So Martin's pettiness and classlessness in dealing with his opponents lead to the Civil War in the Libeal Party.

His faults as a leader have lead to the Civil War and are (in your words) making it difficult for him to win an election.

Nobody to blame but yourself Paul...

Far be it from me to defend Paul Martin but I would prefer to see him lose power for his own faults than for those imagined.

The Liberal Party is involved in a Civil War and this makes it difficult for Martin to win an election. This should be obvious to anyone remotely politically aware in Canada.

[Wilber]

"It may not be true, but it's legendary that if you're like all Americans, you know almost nothing except for your own country. Which makes you probably knowledgeable about one more country than most Canadians."

From what I've seen lately when Canadians are asked about their own history, I'd say he's right. They do know a lot more about their own country than we do about ours.

[BubberMiley]

Speak for yourself.

[River_God]

Harper's War in Iraq and Missile pseudo-Defence Shield would have cost Canada far more than any waste in Martin's govenment.

Martin has payed down the debt 8 years in a row. If Harper is elected he will follow Bush's lead in driving the country to the brink of bankruptcy (Like Mulroney did before him)

[newbie]

Re-electing the Liberals would be apocalyptic and drastic. Canada might not survive it.

Now who's fear mongering?

[tml12]

Re-electing the Liberals would be apocalyptic and drastic. Canada might not survive it.

Now who's fear mongering?

I wouldn't call that fear mongering...although I am sure it makes the Liberals fear...

[shoop]

It was a little over the top.

Oh can't do that. Because Liberals never ever back down, they see it as a sign of weakness when othe parties behave rationally and don't always defend the most outrageous sayings of anyone in their party.

What kind of an Official Leader of the Opposition will Paul Martin make?

I wouldn't call that fear mongering...although I am sure it makes the Liberals fear...

[betsy]

Liberals dislike the philosophy of Conservatives....and Conservatives dislike the philosophy of Liberals.

Fine.

But the issue is about CORRUPTIONS and SCANDALS that is crippling the country.

Undeniable, proven PATTERN OF CORRUPTIONS that had happened, and more allegations of more corruptions under investigations.

Undeniable PATTERN OF SCANDALS that had happening...and is still happening, even right after the wake of the Gomery report.

You know what they say..."where there's smoke....?"

Well, the Liberals had proven that saying true a number of times. What can I say?

As a citizen, that is the top most concern for me.

You think I quake with fear just because you say Harper WILL DO THIS...or Harper WILL DO THAT?

You argue with pure what-ifs, self-serving reasonings backing up your claims...wishy-washy claims...twisting facts...deflecting....sounding just like the Liberal Party you blindly defend.

You know what? You just keep reminding me why the Liberals ought not to be trusted. Keep up the good work.

[kimmy]

Kinsella and Copps may feel happy on 23 January if Martin loses. But they will wake up to a country fundamentally shifted, just as a tectonic shift occurred in October 1995.

Kinsella and Copps are tacticians, with no understanding at all for strategy.

I suspect that Kinsella and Copps believe that if Harper wins, his reign will be a short one. I think they believe that if Harper wins, the Liberals will use the "time-out" to get their ship back in order, force an election, and take back power. (they could well be right.)

The timetable for all of this might be less than a year. Paul Martin would most likely resign immediately as Liberal leader if the Liberals lose this election. They could have a leadership convension this spring, a policy convention this summer, and force an election in the fall.

How does the country "fundamentally shift" if the Liberals lose?

Do you ever watch TV, August? On the fantasy-themed castaway TV show "Lost", there was a plot that reminded me a bit of the dilemna Canadian voters face. The castaways discovered some kind of underground bunker, staffed by a lone hermit. There is a doomsday clock in the bunker that starts up at random, and the hermit informed the castaways that when the doomsday clock starts, the Big Red Button has to be pressed before the clock counts down to zero... or "something terrible will happen." Because the clock starts at random, somebody always has to be there to press the button. The hermit believes he's kept the world safe by staying there to press the button for so many years. He's been made a prisoner, confined to the bunker not by lock and key but by the fear of what might happen if he isn't there to press the button.

Jack, the leader of the castaways, is a doctor, a man of science, and he dismisses all of this as ridiculous. When the clock starts, Jack scoffs and tells the others that nobody is going to press the button, and nothing is going to happen. But ultimately, as the clock is ticking off its final seconds, it is Jack's hand that shoots out to press the Big Red Button. He blinked. He lost his nerve. In that moment, he decided that he would rather play the game than find out what happens if he doesn't.

I haven't followed this season... I don't know if the castaways have found out what happens if nobody presses the Big Red Button in time. Maybe they found out and it wasn't a disaster after all. Or maybe they're still pressing the button.

I wonder, when they're alone in the voting booth, if Canadians will find themselves making the same decision as Jack. The Big Red Button is right there on you ballot, it's safe, it's reassuring. Canadians have been told over and over that "something terrible will happen" if they don't press the button. Canadians might find it tempting to just keep playing the game. Canadians might lose their nerve to find out what happens if they don't press the Big Red Button this time.

But what if Canadians don't press the Big Red Button, and decide to find out what happens. Suppose they let the doomsday clock count down, and the world doesn't end after all? It sort of removes any incentive to go back to playing that game, doesn't it?

The risk that Kinsella and Copps and that camp are taking is that Canadians will choose not to press the Big Red Button, and discover the consequences aren't so terrible after all. What if Harper gets elected, and all of the scary consequences people have been warned of just don't materialize? Fear of the unknown has worked for the Liberals for a long time, but they're giving Canadians a great chance to get really familiar with Harper. This might not work out as well for the Chretienite Liberals as they expect.

-k

[Duke]

If Harper is elected he will start his campaign to get re.elected Jan 24th. This will not involve alienating voters with far right policy. He will govern from the middle just like the Liberals did to ensure he is not a one trick Pony.

[tml12]

It was a little over the top.

Oh can't do that. Because Liberals never ever back down, they see it as a sign of weakness when othe parties behave rationally and don't always defend the most outrageous sayings of anyone in their party.

What kind of an Official Leader of the Opposition will Paul Martin make?

I wouldn't call that fear mongering...although I am sure it makes the Liberals fear...

OK it was a bit drastic. I just get a little carried away with my frustration sometimes... :angry:

[Duke]

Harper's War in Iraq and Missile pseudo-Defence Shield would have cost Canada far more than any waste in Martin's govenment.

Martin has payed down the debt 8 years in a row. If Harper is elected he will follow Bush's lead in driving the country to the brink of bankruptcy (Like Mulroney did before him)

All Martin did for 8 years was shift the debt to the Provinces rather than do real work like cut costs,eliminate waste and streamline governement............not too creative imo.

[tml12]

Harper's War in Iraq and Missile pseudo-Defence Shield would have cost Canada far more than any waste in Martin's govenment.

Martin has payed down the debt 8 years in a row. If Harper is elected he will follow Bush's lead in driving the country to the brink of bankruptcy (Like Mulroney did before him)

All Martin did for 8 years was shift the debt to the Provinces rather than do real work like cut costs,eliminate waste and streamline governement............not too creative imo.

LMAO Trudeau you must mean. Grantec Mulrooney was a buffoon too.

We need Harper to clean up government...

[BubberMiley]

Do you mean clean up government or disassemble government?

[wellandboy]

Harper's War in Iraq and Missile pseudo-Defence Shield would have cost Canada far more than any waste in Martin's govenment.

Martin has payed down the debt 8 years in a row. If Harper is elected he will follow Bush's lead in driving the country to the brink of bankruptcy (Like Mulroney did before him)

Geez River God, what you say is nonsense, but you sure have mastered those bold, large coloured font whaddyacallits. I'm impressed. What's with the name? Do we have a diety in our midst?

[River_God]

Geez River God, I'm impressed. What's with the name? Do we have a diety in our midst?

I like to think I'm a river god wellandboy. I also like to think I'm a lot like James Bond. Thanks for the compliment.

[fellowtraveller]

What kind of an Official Leader of the Opposition will Paul Martin make?

It can be summed up in one word: shortlived.

[Wilber]

Except for one province, every one of them is struggling to balance it's budget and provide the health care and other services that the Feds bailed on. As in the aviation world that I mentioned before, some government responsibilities have been privatized and made user pay, as well as user fees attached to government services that did not have them before. Meanwhile the Federal spending has grown at a greater rate than any other level of government and is forecasting huge surpluses. Our military is almost at the point where we will have to start over when it comes to most of its equipment and is having a tough time getting recruits because people have come to realize that our commitment to our military doesn't go much past lip service and showing the appropriate amount of public grief when one comes home dead.

What amazes me is that they have been able to brainwash the public into believing that the present economic state is due to their fiscal prudence. It is the Provincial and Municipal governments that bit the bullet and deserve the real credit.

I think our federal government needs to be reigned in. It is the most expensive and least accountable level of government we have.

[tml12]

Do you mean clean up government or disassemble government?

Clean up government.