Why we must prevent Harper from becoming PM

[kimmy]

Let's try something more constructive here. Let's discuss some of the issues.

-should daycare be wholly subsidized? Subsidized at all? If neither, then subsidized to what degree?

-what form should government-sponsored daycare take? Are we talking about big buildings with Government of Canada logos on the side? Are we talking about government cooperation with the private daycare providers that already exist? What happens to private daycare providers that already exist if some national program is installed?

-what about fairness to people who've selected other options? Leaving their kids with a friend or family member, stay at home parents, or people with no kids at all? Is it fair that these people pay taxes to support a program that they don't use?

It seems to me that whatever your position on daycare, you have to be able to discuss these issues in supporting your view on daycare.

-k

[The Honest Politician]

How many holes need to be shot in the conservatives daycare "plan" before you just give it up?

Seriously time and time again reasons have be shown as to why the plan won't work. How there is going to be huge back-door expesnses. How the potential for a child being in a hazardous environment, is far greater under the Conservative "plan". It will not work. It is a seriously flawed plan, that hasn't been thought through.

[shoop]

Regardless of the use of the term *back-door* or poor spelling of expenses, I haven't seen anything credible pointing to the CPC plan costing more than the Liberal one.

How there is going to be huge back-door expesnses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[betsy]

Those who would be deprived of the freedom that comes with economic certainty by your preferred choice do not have freedom of choice;

What certainty???

With the Liberal track records of boondagles and spending fiascos...the most likely CERTAINTY we'll get from the National Childcare would be exactly like the kind of certainty we got from the gun registry!

And the tax payers will be the one holding the bag! That's certainty for sure!

[wellandboy]

If you want to engage in political discussions, then get a brain!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To all reasonable posters, I apologize. However, when others engage in unwarranted and aggressive condescensions of individuals core beliefs, I tend to react.

Anyway, back to daycare. I like the Conservative plan and have a huge aversion to government run day cares. What is a legitimate concern are the single parents low income parents, who have limited means to begin with to obtain reasonable day care. An additional tax cut would be cost effective as it directly benefits the individual(s), without a huge investment in bricks, mortar and administration like the Lib/NDP plan.

[The Honest Politician]

Regardless of the use of the term *back-door* or poor spelling of expenses, I haven't seen anything credible pointing to the CPC plan costing more than the Liberal one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The need to license Daycare Operators.

The need for a license Exam.(development of the test, and course could take months or years.)

The need for licensing course instructors.

The need for licensing centres.

The need for licensing centre employees.

The need for the creation minimum standard of safety in each daycare.

The need for inspectors to ensure minimum safety standards are met.

The need to create an inspector traing course. (again, the development of such a course couls take months or years.)

The need for an inspector training centres.

The need for inspector training centre instructors.

Those are just some forseeable expenses before a single child is actually in a new daycare.

If all you can comeback at me with is my poor spelling, why bother to argue the point? Spelling be damned, the Conservative "plan" is simply not going to work.

[kimmy]

The need to license Daycare Operators.

The need for a license Exam.(development of the test, and course could take months or years.)

The need for licensing course instructors.

The need for licensing centres.

The need for licensing centre employees.

The need for the creation minimum standard of safety in each daycare.

The need for inspectors to ensure minimum safety standards are met.

The need to create an inspector traing course. (again, the development of such a course couls take months or years.)

The need for an inspector training centres.

The need for inspector training centre instructors.

(you're aware that the provinces already handle licensing and inspection of daycare, aren't you? I can't see why you think licensing and inspection will be such an immense undertaking when we're already doing it.)

-k

[shoop]

How will any of these costs not be required as part of the Liberal plan? Granted licensing and inspection already exist.

(Your atrocious spelling is indicative of the lack of time you put into preparing your arguments. Slow down a little. You are missing the point on soooo many levels.)

The need to license Daycare Operators.

The need for a license Exam.(development of the test, and course could take months or years.)

The need for licensing course instructors.

The need for licensing centres.

The need for licensing centre employees.

The need for the creation minimum standard of safety in each daycare.

The need for inspectors to ensure minimum safety standards are met.

The need to create an inspector traing course. (again, the development of such a course couls take months or years.)

The need for an inspector training centres.

The need for inspector training centre instructors.

Those are just some forseeable expenses before a single child is actually in a new daycare.

If all you can comeback at me with is my poor spelling, why bother to argue the point? Spelling be damned, the Conservative "plan" is simply not going to work.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[The Honest Politician]

(you're aware that the provinces already handle licensing and inspection of daycare, aren't you? I can't see why you think licensing and inspection will be such an immense undertaking when we're already doing it.)

-k

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello. We're talking about the possibility of tens of thousands of people opening small daycares in their homes. That is a far cry from what we are already doing.

How will any of these costs not be required as part of the Liberal plan? Granted licensing and inspection already exist.

The numbers of licenses and new inspectors will be far less because there will be fewer daycares with more spaces per. Plus the fact they will be staying in daycare centres and not someones home, means there is no need for new minimum guidlines, for a different type of environment.

(Your atrocious spelling is indicative of the lack of time you put into preparing your arguments. Slow down a little. You are missing the point on soooo many levels.)

I could say the same for your oh-so-correctly spelled lame arguments.

[shoop]

Will the Liberals ban all currently existing home daycare facilities? How would that help alleviate the lack of daycare spaces?

The numbers of licenses and new inspectors will be far less because there will be fewer daycares with more spaces per. Plus the fact they will be staying in daycare centres and not someones home, means there is no need for new minimum guidlines, for a different type of environment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Personal attacks are the sign of a weak mind. *AND/OR* The supporter of a political party on the verge of a historic loss.

I could say the same for your oh-so-correctly spelled lame arguments.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[The Honest Politician]

Personal Attacks!!!!!

Buddy you where ragging on my spelling before I said anything of the kind to you. This is just like Harper saying the Liberals will be running a negative campaign and then put out some of the most negative ads ever seen in Canadian Politics.

What a Crock!

[shoop]

Is the over-reaction and hyperbole a symptom of stress from the way the campaign is crumbling for the Liberals?

Some of the most negative ads *EVER SEEN* in Canadian Politics ... would be the hyperbolic statement I am referring to.

Finally the Conservatvies got smart. Better to be debating how negative the CPCs ads are then to be bombarded by Liberal attack ads.

btw still waiting for you to show all the *holes* in the CPC daycare plan.

Personal Attacks!!!!!

Buddy you where ragging on my spelling before I said anything of the kind to you. This is just like Harper saying  the Liberals will be running a negative campaign and then put out some of the most negative ads ever seen in Canadian Politics.

What a Crock!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[justcrowing]

It's not the answer but its 20 a week more than the Liberals and NDP have given.

Apples and oranges. I'd like to see a plan that gives parents who rely on daycare the assurance that there will be spaces available in facilities with qualified, trained and regulated staff. people using childcare options other than daycare won't be helped by this, of course, but neither will they get much from Harpers plan.

Many parents [?] calling for national daycare [i don't recall calling for it] - it is the single moms [a fast growing increasing population] and today's spoiled that get everything handed to them generation that are wanting this.

I'd say single moms are probably the one's most in need of such a program, so yeah, I can see why they'd want it.

Perhaps they need it most but no one forced them into becoming single parents. They chose that option and now want everyone to support them.

My spouse & I both worked and found more than enough good sitters at reasonable cost. These sitters were mostly moms who wanted to stay home and took in kids for the extra money [tax free too] needed. Our son got better care than he would in a daycare

Anecdote ain't data. I've heard plenty of horror stories of unregulated, unlicensed childcare facilities.

Obviously then, these people did not do their homework first.

But then socialists do not know how to assume responsiblity for themselves - they need government to subsidize and lead them by the hand. How many are willing to purchase a small fixer upper home; purchase 2nd hand furniture; go camping instead of Hawaii; make do with one car and not a car for each member of the family; try good old fashioned home cooking rather than junk food and eating out; & so on.??? I have seen the food baskets of young women in grocery stores and I would say none of them had food there that can be prepared without chemicals or from scratch. Pre-packaged food is expensive and why fill ones body with all those preservatives??? No time, some will say - then I will say, ever learn to make casseroles, use slow cookers, or take the time to prepare enough meals for a few days and freeze them?

So what you're saying is people don't know how to spend their own money.

[]No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that people need to spend within their budgets, learn to budget, and not try to keep up with the Joneses. I suppose we now need government to step into this area too.

Wrong!! We did not use daycare in any shape, way or form. The mom our son stayed with was a personal friend with two children who chose not to work outside the home. There was no licensing nor inspections that were mandatory - parents made their own choices, screening and decisions. Others we knew, hired nannies - offering room & board with a small salary but those were in a higher income category and could afford to do so, we could not. At any rate, we made it and our son learned responsibility without whining for government handouts.

Not everyone has the same options.

[] I agree, which is why Conservatives give options and choices.

And tell me why only for state run institutions should parents receive assistance and not for those who want to make their own choices?

So basically, you're not oppossed to government handouts at all. You just want everyone to get a handout.

That is not what I said. I am asking why is the government discriminating against those who wish to make choices and be funded outside of institutionalized funding? Remember it is all about equality or is it?

I asked the question before - when is enough, actually enough and no one answered it? Why? Because for socialists it is never enough - socialists would, for self interests, bleed a working stiff who is just managing, completely because they believe everyone should fill their stretched out hands. Oh I forgot, the getting by working stiff is rich...

No one answered it because it's a stupid ass question.

It is a stupid ass question because you know I hit a truth. I have several NDP socialist friends and it is always "what's in it for me" but never what is best for everyone. They came right out and said they are only interested in what's in it for them and not everyone else. Gimme is how I see it.

I still fail to see how the NDP plan or even the Liberal's plan have any impact on choice. If people want to choose to put their kids in the hands of neighbours, or private day cares, they still can. But there should be something out there for people to whom those options aren't available.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If the Liberals wish to help regarding child care then it should include everyone and their choices and not a select group as they are currently advocating. Believe it or not, many parents do like the Conservative plan.

[shoop]

That is the shrewdness of the CPCs plan. The Liberal plan played to their base of support. They won't win one new vote for it. The CPC plan palyed to the soccer moms who lead the charge away from the Conservatives at the last minute in 2004. These parents want choice in their daycare and don't want a bunch of men in suits making choices for them.

If the Liberals wish to help regarding child care then it should include everyone and their choices and not a select group as they are currently advocating.  Believe it or not, parents do like the Conservative plan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[kimmy]

(you're aware that the provinces already handle licensing and inspection of daycare, aren't you? I can't see why you think licensing and inspection will be such an immense undertaking when we're already doing it.)

-k

Hello. We're talking about the possibility of tens of thousands of people opening small daycares in their homes. That is a far cry from what we are already doing.

Need everything be licensed? If groups of friends want to each put their $100 a month into a pool so that one of them can stay home and look after the kids, would that need to be licensed? If I want to give my $100 a month to my mom to care for my hypothetical kid, will mom have to get licensed and inspected? If I want to use my $100 a month for a babysitter, will my babysitter have to get licensed and inspected?

If the CPC proposal does indeed create additional private daycares as anticipated, then existing provincial inspection programs can be enlarged accordingly. There's no need to reinvent the wheel.

The numbers of licenses and new inspectors will be far less because there will be fewer daycares with more spaces per. Plus the fact they will be staying in daycare centres and not someones home, means  there is no need for new minimum guidlines, for a different type of environment. 

So what role do you envision for the private daycare facilities that already exist? Will they continue to exist? Will they be subsidized? Will these big-box government daycares you envision be accessible in smaller towns, or is it just for big cities? How far will I have to drive to reach one? Will the government really create enough spaces or will it wind up like the one in Quebec? And is fewer daycares with more spaces per really that great of an environment for kids?

-k

[justcrowing]

Way to go Kimmy - very good points.

[Black Dog]

Regardless of the use of the term *back-door* or poor spelling of expenses, I haven't seen anything credible pointing to the CPC plan costing more than the Liberal one.

Yeah, because the CPC plan is nickle and dime.

Perhaps they need it most but no one forced them into becoming single parents. They choice that option and now want everyone to support them.

Oh brother. This would eb as ludicrous as me saying the CPC's plan promotes promiscuity because its based on the number of children, which would encourage single parents to have as many kids as possible.

No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that people need to spend within their budgets and not keep up with the Joneses.

And not blow their money on beer and popcorn, right?

I agree, which is why Conservatives give options and choices.

No. The Conservative plan gives money.

That is not what I said. I am asking why is the government discriminating against those who wish to make choices and be funded outside of institutionalized funding?

Because not all choices are equal.

It is a stupid ass question because you know I hit a truth. I have several socialist friends and it is always "what's in it for me" but never what is best for everyone.

Then they ain't socialists, are they?

If the Liberals wish to help regarding child care then it should include everyone and their choices and not a select group as they are currently advocating. Believe it or not, parents do like the Conservative plan.

Who doesn't like free money?

[shoop]

double post. oops

[shoop]

Yeah, because the CPC plan is nickle and dime.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you are agreeing that the CPC plan will cost less than the Liberal plan?

No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that people need to spend within their budgets and not keep up with the Joneses.

And not blow their money on beer and popcorn, right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for putting Scott Reid's arrogant comment top of mind again.

That is not what I said. I am asking why is the government discriminating against those who wish to make choices and be funded outside of institutionalized funding?

Because not all choices are equal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just like not all Canadians are in the same situation. The Conservative plan goes further to helping *all* Canadian families. Not just those that fight the Liberals target demographic.

Believe it or not, parents do like the Conservative plan.

Who doesn't like free money?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is the good old Liberal arrogance that is costing them this election.

[The Honest Politician]

Need everything be licensed? If groups of friends want to each put their $100 a month into a pool so that one of them can stay home and look after the kids, would that need to be licensed?  If I want to give my $100 a month to my mom to care for my hypothetical kid, will mom have to get licensed and inspected?  If I want to use my $100 a month for a babysitter, will my babysitter have to get licensed and inspected?

Having thousands of unlicensed individuals opening daycares up everywhere doesn't bother you. How about when the first pedophile opens their own daycare?

We will all be crying for licenses and guidelines, and background checks. But it will be too late for some poor kid. The conservative plan lends itself to this most unfortunate scenario.

If the CPC proposal does indeed create additional private daycares as anticipated, then existing provincial inspection programs can be enlarged accordingly. There's no need to reinvent the wheel.

Did you not read the "plan"? Harper wants to give tax-breaks to the private sector so they can provide daycare for the privilage few who are employees of the company. There will be no expanding of public daycare. More money being spent.

As far as reinventing the wheel, putting children in a daycare where there are two or three adults in a room, is a far cry from putting children in a house with only one adult. It would require different standards because of the likely hood of a child being left unsupervised, even if only for a few minutes, is far greater when there is only one adult present.

So what role do you envision for the private daycare facilities that already exist?  Will they continue to exist? Will they be subsidized?  Will these big-box government daycares you envision be accessible in smaller towns, or is it just for big cities?  How far will I have to drive to reach one?  Will the government really create enough spaces or will it wind up like the one in Quebec?   And is fewer daycares with more spaces per really that great of an environment for kids?

-k

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are the private daycare facilities not already inspected, and their owners licensed?

Do they not already give subsidies to low income families?

How small of a town are you talking about? My town of 15000 has atleast three pritave daycare centres as well as ones in some of the local schools.

How far do you have to drive now?

Atleast spaces will be created that are available to people who can't afford regular daycare.

Are you anti-social? Social interaction is essential in a childs development. What a lame argument. Is being in a house with 3 other kids under 6yrs old and only one adult to supervise really in any way better or safer for the child? I think not.

[justcrowing]

Regardless of the use of the term *back-door* or poor spelling of expenses, I haven't seen anything credible pointing to the CPC plan costing more than the Liberal one.

Yeah, because the CPC plan is nickle and dime.

It's not nickle and dime - it's about choice and independence something socialists do not understand.

Perhaps they need it most but no one forced them into becoming single parents. They choice that option and now want everyone to support them.

Oh brother. This would eb as ludicrous as me saying the CPC's plan promotes promiscuity because its based on the number of children, which would encourage single parents to have as many kids as possible.

No comparison but hey, maybe you are on to something. If Canadians had more babies then we would not have to import more people. Nawh, it's easier to import people

No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that people need to spend within their budgets and not keep up with the Joneses.

And not blow their money on beer and popcorn, right?

Hey Martin said that and you said it, not me. If people cannot make good choices then they must live with the consequences so if they wish to spend the money on beer and popcorn so be it but then they should not complain that the amount of money given is not enough.

I agree, which is why Conservatives give options and choices.

No. The Conservative plan gives money.

And the Liberals give money, lots of it in creating a beaurocracy which will fail like the gun registry which started out with $1 million and escalated to the ceiling into more millions and guns are out on the street and crime is with us but that is another topic.

That is not what I said. I am asking why is the government discriminating against those who wish to make choices and be funded outside of institutionalized funding?

Because not all choices are equal.

But Canadians chant equality so why not when it comes to childcare? Under the Conservatives, everyone is treated equally and have freedom of choice rather than dictatorship.

It is a stupid ass question because you know I hit a truth. I have several socialist friends and it is always "what's in it for me" but never what is best for everyone.

Then they ain't socialists, are they?

Oh but they are and vote NDP and are strong union types & admit they are socialists. You bet, they have their gimme hands out all the time and any socialist I have met is no different - it is always "what's in it for me" and not what is best for everyone. We do not discuss politics in order to remain friends, but I observe and it is soooo evident.

[/color=red]

If the Liberals wish to help regarding child care then it should include everyone and their choices and not a select group as they are currently advocating. Believe it or not, parents do like the Conservative plan.

Who doesn't like free money?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, everyone likes free money so if one group gets it, then to be fair to others who wish to have a choice even if they do wish to spend it on beer & popcorn, they too should get it but not ask for more. To not treat everyone equally is not the Canadian way or is it when special interest groups want it all their way?

[justcrowing]

Quote: Honest Politician: Having thousands of unlicensed individuals opening daycares up everywhere doesn't bother you. How about when the first pedophile opens their own daycare?

We will all be crying for licenses and guidelines, and background checks. But it will be too late for some poor kid. The conservative plan lends itself to this most unfortunate scenario.

And pedophiles have not been hired by licensed daycare? Or children have not been abused in licensed daycare? Where have you been - remember the big bust in Saskatchewan & there are others that do not come to mind right now?

[The Honest Politician]

Quote: Honest Politician:  Having thousands of unlicensed individuals opening daycares up everywhere doesn't bother you. How about when the first pedophile opens their own daycare?

We will all be crying for licenses and guidelines, and background checks. But it will be too late for some poor kid. The conservative plan lends itself to this most unfortunate scenario.

And pedophiles have not been hired by  licensed daycare?  Or children have not been abused in licensed daycare?  Where have you been - remember the big bust in Saskatchewan & there are others that do not come to mind right now?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But in a normal daycare environment there are other adults to police the adults. I am not saying it doesn't happen. I am saying that the conservative plan will create the opportunity for more of it to happen. There will be more children in daycares where there is only one adult present. There will be no accident reports. Only the word of the daycare operator.

How many children right now are put into unhealthy, unlicensed, daycare situations?

Do we really want to incease that numbers by thousands?

[I miss Reagan]

How about we take care of our own kids or pay for our own child care instead of insisting the nanny state pay for everything? Anyone remember the French language debate last month where the guy in Vancouver asks (from his obviously upper middle class home) for the government to pay for his kid's child care in French? This is offensive to me. Why should we pay money so already wealthy people can have their double income to have an extra BMW and go to Bermuda for Christmas.

[Argus]

Hello. We're talking about the possibility of tens of thousands of people opening small daycares in their homes. That is a far cry from what we are already doing.

Need everything be licensed? If groups of friends want to each put their $100 a month into a pool so that one of them can stay home and look after the kids, would that need to be licensed? If I want to give my $100 a month to my mom to care for my hypothetical kid, will mom have to get licensed and inspected? If I want to use my $100 a month for a babysitter, will my babysitter have to get licensed and inspected?

Or to put it another way, the transit service I take to work does not get any government inspection, nor does the driver. No checks to ensure there are fire extinquishers in place, no guarantees of cleanliness, and the driver gets no special training at all! Because the transit service is one of my neighbours and her car. I do pay her $50 a month, though, so shouldn't that make it a commercial service and require all sorts of inspections, forms and documentation to ensure my safety?