Carbon tax ineffective in curbing fuel emissions, majority of Canadians say

[CdnFox]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/carbon-tax-ineffective-in-curbing-fuel-emissions-majority-of-canadians-say-1.6507795

Two-thirds of Canadians say it is a poor time to increase the carbon tax, with a majority saying they believe the tax on gas is ineffective at tackling climate change.

This is according to a survey conducted by Nanos Research and commissioned by CTV News intended to better understand Canadian perception towards combating climate change through increasing prices on fuel.

In 2019, Nanos found that 16 per cent of Canadians believed carbon taxes were effective at reducing fuel consumption and 26 per cent believed they were somewhat effective. Today, only nine per cent say carbon taxes are an effective strategy and 23 per cent say they are somewhat effective.

[CdnFox]

So basically people are seeing through the bullcrap and realizing the carbon tax does nothing but line the pockets of the liberals.

And Justin has two more increases planned before the next election. And with economic times getting harder, and GHG emissions continuing to go up, i suspect even fewer will support it by next election time.  This is going to turn out to be a weak spot for Justin for sure.  But more importantly it's going to drive 'climate change' way down the list of priorities for the gov't.

[Moonbox]

The numbers are what will or won't bear out the efficacy of carbon taxes.  Asking Canadians what their opinions are on a tax is like asking a 3 year old whether they want ice cream after dinner.  You already know the answer.  

[myata]

When giving the good government more of the citizens' dough was effective last time? Please enlighten me.

Carbon charge: goods or service, for you Joe? Make your choice!

[ExFlyer]

We all know that the carbon tax is just show business. Some provinces implemented it before the feds did so putting blame or shame on the feds alone is incorrect.

We are big failures in this climate control business.

[myata]

There's a saying that the people deserve their governments and in this case I agree 101%. Engines, loud and louder guzzling engines, the hotter it gets the more and louder engines, should we get this small car no lets go with a truck or better this huge guzzling SUV just in case we gonna have 8 kids and everybody has good reasons do you have a good reason, looser. Possibly the messiest, loudest, most thoughtless cities in the developed world, and why care why think like where's the incentive? Yeah you've got it Joe. All is assured and guaranteed. You're sure to arrive somewhere.

Edited August 9, 2023 by myata

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, myata said:

and why care

I think people are tired of shame politics. 

I drive a small car, but to some, its a crime as its an ICE.

I recycle, am conservative with water and electricity, but work for a company that doesn't recycle.

I think we should live and let live. Push back happens when things get shoved down throats. Otherwise, most are too busy living to actually give a f*** about what others are doing.

Why s*** on the people, when there are businesses selling these items to us at affordable prices? Why don't businesses get punished? Why do governments pick on its constituents? Can't possibly be because of financial reasons. 

An EV is insanely expensive for the type that would compare in range and size to an ICE.

Those who go around from my vantage point talking about how much more they care than others, tend to be narssissistic as f***, and worse for the world than the humble type who would make their moves and not need recognition for it. 

[ExFlyer]

18 minutes ago, myata said:

There's a saying that the people deserve their governments and in this case I agree 101%. Engines, loud and louder guzzling engines, the hotter it gets the more and louder engines, should we get this small car no lets go with a truck or better this huge guzzling SUV just in case we gonna have 8 kids and everybody has good reasons do you have a good reason, looser. Possibly the messiest, loudest, most thoughtless cities in the developed world, and why care why think like where's the incentive? Yeah you've got it Joe. All is assured and guaranteed. You're sure to arrive somewhere.

Did you read what you wrote before you pushed Submit??

The most bizarre bungled up post ever, even for you  LOL

[CdnFox]

5 hours ago, Moonbox said:

The numbers are what will or won't bear out the efficacy of carbon taxes.  Asking Canadians what their opinions are on a tax is like asking a 3 year old whether they want ice cream after dinner.  You already know the answer.  

those three year olds are the ones who will be voting him back in or voting him out.  So in that regard their perception matters a great deal.  If people don't believe it's working they won't support it and will support scrapping it. Which is an open door for PP to exploit.

The numbers aren't looking great on it either.

[myata]

3 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Why s*** on the people, when there are businesses selling these items to us at affordable prices? Why don't businesses get punished? Why do governments pick on its constituents? Can't possibly be because of financial reasons. 

Yeah right. Someone has to think for me. I'm only a little piece of nothing and nothing depends on me. A self-fulfilling prophecy Joe. Not like a revelation.

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

those three year olds are the ones who will be voting him back in or voting him out.  So in that regard their perception matters a great deal.  If people don't believe it's working they won't support it and will support scrapping it. Which is an open door for PP to exploit.

The numbers aren't looking great on it either.

Sure, but effective vs popular are two different things.  The GST was deeply unpopular, but it was good policy.  The Harper cuts to GST were not good policy, but they were popular.  
 

For what it’s worth I think you’re right about it being a losing issue for the Liberals, much like it was an own-goal for Stephane Dion to push the Green Shift as we were dealing with the Great Recession.  

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

Sure, but effective vs popular are two different things.  The GST was deeply unpopular, but it was good policy.  The Harper cuts to GST were not good policy, but they were popular.  
 

For what it’s worth I think you’re right about it being a losing issue for the Liberals, much like it was an own-goal for Stephane Dion to push the Green Shift as we were dealing with the Great Recession.  

Yeah. 

Side note  - with regards to the GST cut, i agree to say that in concept it was a bad policy designed to win votes and not to further canada's interests - BUT as it TURNS OUT.... funny thing is that many economists would later write that it was a very good thing in the end because it helped create stimulation of the economy right at a time when the recession hit and was beneficial to coping with the great recession and keeping canada's economy as strong as it was. Worked out perfect.

Now - there is NO way he could have known that when he announced it or set the dates for implementation The fact that the wrong policy had the right effect was completely luck.

But i am reminded of the saying that given a choice luck beats skill any day  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Yeah right. Someone has to think for me. I'm only a little piece of nothing and nothing depends on me. A self-fulfilling prophecy Joe. Not like a revelation.

You were better off putting a gif of you farting in frosty weather. That would have made more sense than your above post.

[Zeitgeist]

I hate to burst people’s bubbles, but I can say this because I was an environmental activist and I’ve done the research: It’s impossible with current and planned technologies to provide our energy supply with renewables.  For California to provide 80% of its power through renewable energy would require 700 million Tesla power wall battery systems.  All the promises of getting to net zero by 2030, 2035, or even 2050 are utter bullshit (unless some revolutionary green technology is invented between now and then).

Another bubble to burst: Our carbon taxes, which add to our inflationary pressures, add costs to our already high cost of living (energy, transportation, heating, cooling), and send manufacturing jobs to China, will do absolutely nothing to reduce climate change.  In fact, our emissions are continuing to rise.

We will need to add nuclear energy, natural gas, hydro, etc.  We can do feel good exercises like making all new roofs contain solar tiles but it cannot power much of our energy grid.

Cheap and abundant energy is perhaps the single greatest determinant of living standards.  With it you can produce clean water, food, transportation, manufacturing, and all of our Information Age infrastructure (Big Five: Google, Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, plus Tesla, etc.).   NOTE that our future EVs require an expanded electricity grid.

Our green government clowns are either stupid or they are lying.  My guess is both.

Carbon taxes and much of the renewables plan must be scrapped yesterday because the presumptions are false and it’s reducing Canadian living standards and competitiveness in a hurry.

I fought to eliminate coal power in Ontario.  Ontario’s energy costs went up 71% due to this and the Green Energy Act, which heavily subsidized renewables that produced little energy and gutted our electric capacity. Germany scrapped nuclear power and saw its energy costs rise 50% and its geopolitical dependence on volatile foreign sources of power rise substantially.  California’s fantasy renewable promises are sending energy prices through the roof and facilitating an exodus of businesses and residents. Already people are leaving Ontario for Alberta.  Given the cost of housing and living in general in Canada, people will seek to leave Canada.  Some already are.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Side note  - with regards to the GST cut, i agree to say that in concept it was a bad policy designed to win votes and not to further canada's interests - BUT as it TURNS OUT.... funny thing is that many economists would later write that it was a very good thing in the end because it helped create stimulation of the economy right at a time when the recession hit and was beneficial to coping with the great recession and keeping canada's economy as strong as it was. Worked out perfect.

Sure, but an income tax cut would have done the same thing but worked better, and it's what the economists generally agreed was the better move.  Because the GST was so unpopular and was still a sore spot, that was easy votes.  Smart by Harper, not the best choice for Canadians, but the average voter doesn't know anything.  That's why all of our political messaging is about things that make people go Reeee.  

[myata]

10 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

That would have made more sense than your above post.

But it's only a self-fulfilling prophecy complacency and mental laziness always is. We will do nothing meaningful, accomplish nothing here not because it's impossible but because of who we are. Bring in new tax, cancel the tax that's all we can do in the reality nothing else. Emissions won't change, healthcare neither. Persistent problems with light rail in the national capital, third century of the technology megabucks overpaid. We don't want to do anything new here, and choose it, see? How can you avoid the consequences, Joe?

[ExFlyer]

10 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I hate to burst people’s bubbles, but I can say this because I was an environmental activist and I’ve done the research: It’s impossible with current and planned technologies to provide our energy supply with renewables.  For California to provide 80% of its power through renewable energy would require 700 million Tesla power wall battery systems.  All the promises of getting to net zero by 2030, 2035, or even 2050 are utter bullshit (unless some revolutionary green technology is invented between now and then).

Another bubble to burst: Our carbon taxes, which add to our inflationary pressures, add costs to our already high cost of living (energy, transportation, heating, cooling), and send manufacturing jobs to China, will do absolutely nothing to reduce climate change.  In fact, our emissions are continuing to rise.

We will need to add nuclear energy, natural gas, hydro, etc.  We can do feel good exercises like making all new roofs contain solar tiles but it cannot power much of our energy grid.

Cheap and abundant energy is perhaps the single greatest determinant of living standards.  With it you can produce clean water, food, transportation, manufacturing, and all of our Information Age infrastructure (Big Five: Google, Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, plus Tesla, etc.).   NOTE that our future EVs require an expanded electricity grid.

Our green government clowns are either stupid or they are lying.  My guess is both.

Carbon taxes and much of the renewables plan must be scrapped yesterday because the presumptions are false and it’s reducing Canadian living standards and competitiveness in a hurry.

I fought to eliminate coal power in Ontario.  Ontario’s energy costs went up 71% due to this and the Green Energy Act, which heavily subsidized renewables that produced little energy and gutted our electric capacity. Germany scrapped nuclear power and saw its energy costs rise 50% and its geopolitical dependence on volatile foreign sources of power rise substantially.  California’s fantasy renewable promises are sending energy prices through the roof and facilitating an exodus of businesses and residents. Already people are leaving Ontario for Alberta.  Given the cost of housing and living in general in Canada, people will seek to leave Canada.  Some already are.

Thank you for that.

As a now disillusioned "environmental activist" you have described us, Canadians, exactly as we are.

Yes, we want clean energy and less pollution and zero carbon emissions but, we do nothing except tax ourselves.

It is not EV's that will gobble up the short supply of energy, it is the immediate rush to build millions of homes. Homes will require a lot more energy than EV's by a long shot.

We need those "nuclear energy, natural gas, hydro, etc" energy sources but we needed to start building infrastructure and facilities 5 years ago if we wanted them online by 2030 or 2035  or even 2050.

Anyway, I agree with you in your entirety. We are failing at everything.

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Yes, we want clean energy and less pollution and zero carbon emissions but, we do nothing except tax ourselves.

To the day i die i will never understand why those who genuinely cared about global warming and reducing emissions ever bought into that concept so strongly. We knew early on it wouldn't do anything productive, and year after year we missed targets and fell further behind but as long as they had their tax they were willing to let the gov't slide. 

All we can do now is push for more adaption of nuclear power and other energy alternatives where appropriate.  Solar and wind are great but they will only ever be supplements in their current form.

[myata]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

To the day i die i will never understand why

I'll save you much wondering just for a pint of good ale. Because we needed to show - ourselves mostly, that we care; that we have to do something. Except we don't want to do anything meaningful here; we don't know how it's done; lacking imagination; will and the skills (see e.g. "light trail" above, the formidable new frontier of urban technology) to do anything like it; sleepy and cannot be bothered to do anything but repeating the routine installed centuries back, but with a different result, want to hope. And then we get tired of showing it, to ourselves. And push the button for the other head. And the cycle continues, because it was that way always. And it's exactly how we like it, here.

[ExFlyer]

11 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

To the day i die i will never understand why those who genuinely cared about global warming and reducing emissions ever bought into that concept so strongly. We knew early on it wouldn't do anything productive, and year after year we missed targets and fell further behind but as long as they had their tax they were willing to let the gov't slide. 

All we can do now is push for more adaption of nuclear power and other energy alternatives where appropriate.  Solar and wind are great but they will only ever be supplements in their current form.

The most BS thing is that they give carbon tax rebate to everyone, even if you don't have a car.

Like letting EV's on the road even though they don't pay the road tax through gasoline purchase. I have heard there are 7000 - 10000- EV's in Ontario (including city buses and trucks).

[Zeitgeist]

58 minutes ago, myata said:

I'll save you much wondering just for a pint of good ale. Because we needed to show - ourselves mostly, that we care; that we have to do something. Except we don't want to do anything meaningful here; we don't know how it's done; lacking imagination; will and the skills (see e.g. "light trail" above, the formidable new frontier of urban technology) to do anything like it; sleepy and cannot be bothered to do anything but repeating the routine installed centuries back, but with a different result, want to hope. And then we get tired of showing it, to ourselves. And push the button for the other head. And the cycle continues, because it was that way always. And it's exactly how we like it, here.

When Canadians get behind a project we do it top class. We were the third country to launch a satellite into space, we built the Confederation Bridge, the St. Lawrence Seaway, suppled significant armaments and support during both world wars, etc., but we need to get the goals right.  They can’t be money pits that don’t advance us in significant ways.  Our public transportation systems are insufficient.  We should have high speed rail running from Windsor to Quebec City and between Edmonton and Vancouver.  We should have twice the commuter train/subway lines and underground toll highways through our cities.  Idling cars and slow commutes are killing our quality of life.

Our building codes should be updated to incorporate solar in all roof tiles and to bring geothermal, deep water cooling, and slowpoke small nuclear reactors to all new housing developments.  We will still need additional large scale energy supply, likely nuclear and hydro.  We should probably let coal go except as a backup (already the case when we buy power from the US during peak periods).

The carbon tax is just a feel good exercise for the elites that adds to our cost of living   It has wasteful administrative costs, like all government redistribution programs.

Environmental activists are unfortunately often blind to or unwilling to be honest about what’s possible because they want easy solutions.  Canadians will only need more power as our population expands and to power up those EV’s.  Marijuana production alone (supposedly “green” Trudeau’s legacy) adds significant load to our grid.

We’re left with having to build more large scale power plants and some sensible renewables   That’s it   No climate targets will be met.    None.  China, India, and even European countries like Poland are building hundreds of coal plants.

We need to get real.

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[myata]

18 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

We should have twice the commuter train/subway lines and underground toll highways through our cities.  Idling cars and slow commutes are killing our quality of life.

Our building codes should be updated to incorporate solar in all roof tiles and to bring geothermal, deep water cooling, and slowpoke small nuclear reactors to all new housing developments.  We will still need additional large scale energy supply, likely nuclear and hydro.  We should probably let coal go except as a backup (already the case when we buy power from the US during peak periods).

Yeah like who would be doing all that? The monstrous bureaucracy we have developed over the centuries? Just putting it down on the list would take a few years and a some public millions. All those great things, they are in the past, long one. Did we want to notice that too?

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, myata said:

Yeah like who would be doing all that? The monstrous bureaucracy we have developed over the centuries? Just putting it down on the list would take a few years and a some public millions. All those great things, they are in the past, long one. Did we want to notice that too?

We need a thread just on Trudeau’s massive increase in government bureaucracy and employees during his reign. Frank Stronach has identified this as a massive drain on our small and medium sized businesses.  Canada has a white elephant out of touch overpriced inefficient federal government.

If the Conservatives win the next election and decide to actually be conservative, they should stop all hiring in government departments for at least 10 years and cut government administrative costs by at least 20 percent. Canada has become a Soviet-style mess of zombie apparatchiks at the federal level.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Zeitgeist