Gangs and street shootings

[scribblet]

I'm not big on the death penalty either, but I think if one my kids were raped and murdered I might be willing to pull the switch as long as he was guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.

However, I do believe that the soft approach isn't working, repeat offenders and criminals such as these gun gangstas should be made to work hard. What's wrong with having them work to clean up roads etc. We've been soft on these guys for too long.

[PocketRocket]

On the contrary, the problem is not the least bit new.

How do these "gangsta niggas" as they like to call themselves, differ in mentality from the mongols which swept through cities killing, raping and burning everything in sight?

Simple. The Mongols were better organized, and probably a hell of a lot more intelligent.

One similarity, though, is both are drug-motivated. Gangsta's for personal use and profit.

The Mongols, on the other hand, used the naturally-occuring, low-intensity LSD found in the aminida muscaria mushroom to get themselves hyped-up for battle.

It also had the virtue of vastly reducing the perception of pain if they took an injury.

Except, perhaps, that they have less honour than the Mongols, and less purpose. Remove the "thin blue line" and they would be out killing, raping and burning every day, and thoroughly enjoying themselves while doing it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You may be right, but in removing the line, it wouldn't take long before the general populace got fed up and started shooting back.

When you consider that the majority of gangsta shoot-outs are motivated by turf-wars, or in these recent Toronto cases, possibly just personal insults, most of their violence would probably still be directed at each other, as it is now. They lack the intelligence and/or skill to organize in any meaningful fashion.

It doesn't bother me to see an incident where a couple of the perpetrators kill each other.

But it is truly sad to see innocent bystanders take a hit.

Personally, I think we should bring back stocks.

You remember, those wooden contraptions from old movies, where your head and hands are held in place so the public can jeer you, or toss rotten vegetables at your face, or just come up and spit at you, or whatever they like.

Public floggings would also play well.

With street gangs, it's all about being "tough" and "cool".

Kind of hard to do either when your locked in stocks for several days, forced to foul your own pants, having other people's waste tossed on you.

It also has the advantage that if you get the wrong person, it's not lethal.

[crazymf]

They lack the intelligence and/or skill to organize in any meaningful fashion.

...because they are self centered little a**holes that don't care about anyone but themselves.

[PocketRocket]

...because they are self centered little a**holes that don't care about anyone but themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't be shy; tell us what you really think

[Guest eureka]

Isn't it about time that we focused on PUNISHMENT instead of rehabilitation?

The human race has always focused on punishment. Over the last hundred years or so, we finally understood that there could be better ways.

Guess what! Crime rates went down dramatically. The streets became much safer places.

[Argus]

Isn't it about time that we focused on PUNISHMENT instead of rehabilitation?

The human race has always focused on punishment. Over the last hundred years or so, we finally understood that there could be better ways.

Guess what! Crime rates went down dramatically. The streets became much safer places.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

UHm, no, actually, that isn't true. Crime was often driven in the past by need, by desperation. In eras without any kind of public support for those without work, well, if you couldn't find work, you stole or starved. Social assistance program obviated that need and desperation.

As for the streets, they were safer in the fifties and sixties than now, much safer. Those were the days when cops took no crap from punks, when a punk who got out of hand would be thrown down a flight of stairs or two until they wised up or moved on. If this were the fifties the cops would already have arrested almost everyone connected to those two gangs, and they be tumbling down stairs until they outed the ones who pulled the trigger. Then those guys would be slammed into prison for the remainder of their lives.

Now, did some of this unofficial justice get out of hand? Yep. Were innocent people sometimes harmed? Yep. Were the streets safer? Yep.

[Black Dog]

On the contrary, the problem is not the least bit new.

How do these "gangsta niggas" as they like to call themselves, differ in mentality from the mongols which swept through cities killing, raping and burning everything in sight? Except, perhaps, that they have less honour than the Mongols, and less purpose. Remove the "thin blue line" and they would be out killing, raping and burning every day, and thoroughly enjoying themselves while doing it.

Maybe. But your "solution" would simply be a cosntanst conveyor belt carrying people to their deaths. Look, let's be clear: th epeople responsible for this shooting are scum. Some may be irredeemable scum. But I don't believe many people are born that way. And while punishing criminals after they commit a crime might satisfy some base emotions, it doesn't help anyone who's circumstances might make them criminals find another way.

What is all this bulshit about what caused the problem?

Generally, knowing the cause is the first step towards solving the problem.

UHm, no, actually, that isn't true. Crime was often driven in the past by need, by desperation. In eras without any kind of public support for those without work, well, if you couldn't find work, you stole or starved. Social assistance program obviated that need and desperation

So poverty and desparation no longer exist? Wow, I had no idea we are so utopian.

[Argus]

On the contrary, the problem is not the least bit new.

How do these "gangsta niggas" as they like to call themselves, differ in mentality from the mongols which swept through cities killing, raping and burning everything in sight? Except, perhaps, that they have less honour than the Mongols, and less purpose. Remove the "thin blue line" and they would be out killing, raping and burning every day, and thoroughly enjoying themselves while doing it.

Maybe. But your "solution" would simply be a cosntanst conveyor belt carrying people to their deaths. Look, let's be clear: th epeople responsible for this shooting are scum. Some may be irredeemable scum. But I don't believe many people are born that way. And while punishing criminals after they commit a crime might satisfy some base emotions, it doesn't help anyone who's circumstances might make them criminals find another way.

Perhaps, but it will stop them from killing others. This guy got 30 days for armed robbery and resisting arrest!

How can that not make you angry!? He was released only a couple of weeks ago. With any kind of reasonable punishment this guy would still have been in prison and that girl would almost certaintly still be alive.

UHm, no, actually, that isn't true. Crime was often driven in the past by need, by desperation. In eras without any kind of public support for those without work, well, if you couldn't find work, you stole or starved. Social assistance program obviated that need and desperation

So poverty and desparation no longer exist? Wow, I had no idea we are so utopian.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not the kind of poverty and desperation which existed a hundred years ago. Not even close.

[scribblet]

Quote: Not the kind of poverty and desperation which existed a hundred years ago. Not even close. Unquote

It sure isn't, these guys are no Jean Valjeans stealing a loaf of bread to survive. They are long past rehabilitation IMO.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/ed...04-ac54e93cae1c

Andre Thompson, the 20-year-old charged with eight counts -- including pointing a firearm, discharging a weapon, possession of a restricted weapon, possession of a loaded weapon, possession of a stolen weapon and violating the terms of his parole -- was out on probation at the time. On Oct. 6, he had been released from prison, where he had been serving time for robbery.

Clearly the criminal justice failed Ms. Creba, with dreadful consequences.

While violent crime is rising, particularly in Toronto, incarceration rates in Canada are falling precipitously. In an average year, there are more than 2.6 million crimes committed in Canada, about 300,000 of them violent. For these offences, about 250,000 persons will be sentenced to custody each year. Yet on any given day, only approximately 32,000 will be in federal or provincial prison.

Increasingly in Canada, only violent offenders ever see the inside of a jail cell and then often only for a few weeks at a time. Four of five adult criminals, according to Statistics Canada, "or just over 122,600, were being supervised in the community. The vast majority, 82%, were on probation, 11% were on conditional sentences and 7% were on parole or statutory release."

Indeed, incarceration rates have been dropping sharply since the mid-1990s, when the federal and provincial governments consciously decided to do away with imprisonment, except in the most extreme cases. At the provincial level, there has been a 31% decline in the number of incarcerated adults; at the federal level, a decrease of 9%.

[BHS]

There were street gangs in ancient Rome. I'm talking about the culture that has arisen in the US because of the high incarceration rates among American Blacks.

If you are so interested in doing research, you should check out the current level of incarceration in the US - overall and non-white. Surprisingly high. Shocking, actually.

We seem to have a chicken-or-egg conundrum going. Is there gang culture because of high incarceration rates or high incarceration rates because of gang culture?

Similarly (but not), while I agree that the incarceration ratio of blacks to whites is unsatisfactorially high, I don't buy into the automatic assumption that this indicates a systematic failure of American justice. Generational poverty issues (stemming as much from poor lifestyle choices as from lack of opportunity) and the gang/ghetto culture they breed occurs at much to a higher proportion in the black demographic. Since we've already agreed that gang culture and incarceration are linked, does it not stand to reason that at least part of the problem of over-representation for blacks in prison populations stems from something other than white racism?

[MableSpam]

I completely understand why FOBs turn to gangs...they see their super intelligent, hard working parents (ask your next brown cabbie where he got his eng'g/med degree from) whom they have always looked up to slaving away at 1-3 jobs to try to make ends meet and wonder why they would want to kill themselves for minimum wage. Thinking of how "if this is all that this person who i looked up to is in this country, what will become of me?". The 1-3 jobs also means that the kids are unguided by tired immigrant parents whose traditional parenting style is ineffective in an MTV world.

This is just one of many scenarios that breeds gangs and is completely kid dependent.

Death/punishment...hmmm...that has done wonders for US crime rates.

This is where i do not see how people fail to see a correlation between good social spending and crime. If we spent money on quality education, increasingly in poor neighbourhoods, and other endeavours such as sports and music, kids will have options othe then gangs. Education of FOB parents to integrate them into the new society would not hurt either.

[Drea]

Throwing money at "disadvantaged" kids is not the solution.

They are not the one's in the gangs.

Middle and upper income families breed gangstas! Kid has had every luxury his parents can afford and he's bored out of his mind. His heros are gangstas in videos. It looks so exciting compared to his dull life of Gameboy and ipods, is it any wonder he's attracted to the lifestyle?

Blaming the gang culture on poverty is ridiculous. If we could poll all the gangstas we'd find out that the majority of them have a normal home -- and they've been so spoiled by their parents that they're bored out of their minds!

The solution: Make them work. Starting at a very young age make him earn his "toys".

My son, who is 12, has had a paperroute since he was 10. He has saved enough to buy himself a computer. The games he buys are regulated by me. No first person shooter games allowed.

He's also been through drug education in his elementary school. He's recently joined air cadets -- this year he started middle school and I want to keep him a good kid!

Better he align himself with cadets than little gangstas!

When he was in grade 5 there was this one kid he went to school with who had pierced ears and dyed hair -- at age 10! What will this kid be doing when he's 13?

I believe in mandatory military service for teens to teach them respect and teamwork.

[Wilber]

Well, seeing as how we are a socialist oriented country (Trudeau), why not have most of the young punks conscripted into the biggest boys gang in the country and instill a father figure into them and force them to reallize what Canadian values are.

ie. Military

If they want to play with guns, let them, pay them to do it. Send them to Iraq to shoot at legitimate targets.

Maybe the punk gang thing won't be so attractive when they get back

You must have a low opinion of the military. Why saddle them with this? What did they do to deserve it? The last time we had a few members of the military act like punks (airborne) we disbanded them.

Mind you, the Brits built an empire with an army composed largely of the dregs of society.

When I once asked my cop kid whether a particular case involved drugs, he said, "they all involve drugs one way or another". When it comes to street and property crime, that's just about it.

I do think we have to find a way of dealing properly with young offenders. Time and time again we hear of young people committing major crimes after years of multiple arrests and convictions but no real consequences. When we let them get away with this crap in their early teens, we are just teaching them that crime really does pay.

[Drea]

If we are talking about teens committing crimes, I have one question?

Why is there not an onus on the parents?

"My little Billy would NEVER do such a thing! He is a good boy, all he does all day is play on his Xbox. I don't know how he could've possibly stolen a car -- that game he plays "Grand Theft Auto" is just a game. No one does those things for real. It helps my son release tension, if he steals a car on the game, he won't want to do it in real life"

This is how parents think. Stupid stupid people that they are...

If my kid ever steals a car I will be at least partially responsible as his parent.

My bro was a bad kid -- stole a car when he was 16 (1978). He was sentenced to 9 months in a camp way out in the middle of knowwhere in BC's northern interior. Best thing that ever happened to him -- he came out of there a different kid.

My nephew was caught selling pot (1998). He was sentenced to 6 months in a juvenile "jail" in the middle of the city. He learned how to become a better criminal. He got at least half a dozen new "contacts" there who were willing to provide him with more drugs.

Hmmmm... how things have changed eh. I say send em all to boot camp right away. Juvie jails just teach them how to beat the system.

[kimmy]

Throwing money at "disadvantaged" kids is not the solution.

They are not the one's in the gangs.

Middle and upper income families breed gangstas! Kid has had every luxury his parents can afford and he's bored out of his mind. His heros are gangstas in videos. It looks so exciting compared to his dull life of Gameboy and ipods, is it any wonder he's attracted to the lifestyle?

Blaming the gang culture on poverty is ridiculous. If we could poll all the gangstas we'd find out that the majority of them have a normal home -- and they've been so spoiled by their parents that they're bored out of their minds!

no, no. The middle and upper income families breed *pretend* gangstas. Kids that would wet their pants in terror if faced with the sort of experiences the real gangstas regard as normal. Everybody wants to be a "bad-ass", hence the rich kids adopting the music and clothes and other adornments of the real gangstas. But when it comes down to shooting someone or (even worse) getting shot at, few people have the stomach for it no matter how bored they might be at home.

However, I do applaud your efforts to be an involved and informed parent. I am sure it will make a difference!

-k

[BubberMiley]

If we could poll all the gangstas we'd find out that the majority of them have a normal home -- and they've been so spoiled by their parents that they're bored out of their minds!

Do you live anywhere near real, live gangsters? If you did, you would find that they rarely come from a "normal" home. Where I come from, most of the gangsters are Aboriginal. The rest are recent immigrants from Africa are southeast asia. What is the common ground there? Oh, maybe, extreme poverty? This is not an issue of kids watching too many Fiddy Cent videos.

[Drea]

In Vancouver most of the gangs are young East Indian males or young Veitnamese (sp) men.

They are most definetly not from poor or single parent families. They all drive suped up little cars and they have guns.

The father of my niece's baby is dead, shot execution style, body dumped by the freeway. His family is wealthy, they own a chain of greenhouses in the Fraser Valley.

My sister took in a foster kid, a 15 yo native girl who had been raised her whole life by a wealthy German couple. She had every advantage an kid could ever want but didn't like the rules in her home, so she ran away and ended up in foster care.

My sister found a 9mm handgun in her backpack! I'd never seen a gun before -- intimidating looking thing it was!

We phoned the police, they came and got the gun but the ministry gave us supreme shit for "going through her stuff". Aparently foster parents aren't allowed to go through a kid's "stuff". Pfft.

These 2 kids I've described come from happy healthy homes. They are not recent immigrants, nor were they raised on welfare. They enjoy the excitment and don't care if they live or die obiviously.

[Hollus]

Criminal justice reform is needed no doubt, but that is reactive approach that will not effect the cause.

Organized crime will always exist as long as theres a profit margin outside of the economy. Why dont we take a look at regulating their industry so we dont have lucrative business waiting for anyone with a gun and no consceince.

[BubberMiley]

And reform will never happen so long as there is a lucrative black market that those with money can invest in to get 300% return in six months