Gangs and street shootings

[Argus]

What we did was to allow into Canada, massive numbers of young people who were already alienated from their mothers, from cultures in which there usually were no fathers. This happened thirty years ago, after we started letting the black maids, housekeepers and nannies we imported from the Carribean become citizens and then sponsor their families, mainly children,for the rate of unwed motherhood in Carribean countries is immense.

These families included many young men and women, boys and girls, whose mothers had been gone for years and who no longer, in many cases, even remembered much about them. They had lived with their grandmothers, and come to think of them as their mothers. Suddenly, they were yanked out of their homes, out of their societies and cultures and schools and neighborhoods and flown to a bizarre, cold place called Canada to live with mothers they hardly knew.

Outsiders from the start, angry, resentful, with an educational background not up to par with ours, thick accents, they sought out each other and hung around together. They became gangs, at first just hanging together, then getting in trouble, as gangs of angry young people will, then getting involved in crime and violence. More and more of them arrived every year, as the Liberals emphasised "family reunification". But their mothers, the sole bread winners, were poor, very poor, and often unemployed. And refugees were pouring into Canada, too, tens of thousands of economic refugees from poverty stricken third world rat-holes every year, most of them without any education, language or job skills. Public housing projects began to fill up with immigrants of colour, especially Blacks, festering sores of anger and resentment towards this new society in which they were failures.

The gangs grew larger and more numerous, full of angry, resentful,undereducated, alienated youth. They became more violent, fighting each other for turf. Without any real positive male role models, they looked towards famous black men, most of whom were Black actors and hip-hop/rap stars. And that was when the gangsta culture began to really rise and thrive in the US. The young people adopted that culture, began to look up to the American street gangs like the Bloods and Crips ,and try to emulate them. Their mentality became brutal, swaggering, cocksure, loving reputations for violence

Meanwhile, other immigrants were arriving, South Americans, from cultures rife with violence and crime, Asians, especially Vietnamese, from those incredibly violent refugee camps, Somalians, from a broken culture where you fought and scratched and stole and killed for any scraps you could get, Iranians, with their contacts in the poppy fields and a determination to have it all, no matter who got in their way. Other gangs formed and grew, finding a steady stream of recruits from our massive inflow of third world immigration. The gangs fought it out in the streets for control of drugs, prostitution and protection

Lax laws and liberal judges smiled at them. The Young Offenders Act made it almost impossible to send them to prison. New constitutional laws made it almost impossible to deport them. A revolving door parole system let them slip in and out of jail easily, despite brutal acts of violence.

And that is how we got to where we are today.

So thank your local bleeding heart liberal. For the US had a gang problem, a home grown gang problem. But we built ours, we imported it, we created it through deliberate government policy. And no Liberal politician has done a single, solitary thing to even attempt to address the problems they have created. For that would require they admit it exists, and that their own policies created it.

[Cameron]

On January 23, vote Conservative. Stand up for Canada.

[August1991]

I wonder how many of these shootings in Toronto are directly related to the Jamaican community. I chose at random an article from today's Jamaican Gleaner:

August Town is one of the communities that has been under the microscope of the police over the past two years. In the past two months, at least three influential gang members have been killed, as the feud between rival factions continues to escalate.

Jamaica Gleaner

----

This happened thirty years ago, after we started letting the black maids, housekeepers and nannies we imported from the Carribean become citizens and then sponsor their families, mainly children,for the rate of unwed motherhood in Carribean countries is immense.

This is true, and it is one of the most heart-breaking aspects of Canada's immigration programme.

The nanny programme allows virtually anyone into Canada on a two year work visa to work as a nanny as long as the sponsor meets Canadian labour requirements. After two years, the nanny (in many cases a woman with little education from the third world) can apply for immigrant status, and then later, she can sponsor her own family.

This programme exists largely for rich families who don't want to send their young kids to day care. These are people who the Liberal Party has traditionally taken care of.

Family re-unification is the corberstone of Canada's immigration law but this programme does exactly the opposite.

----

Pointing fingers isn't going to solve the problem. And it can't be wished away. For the moment, it is still relatively small.

If we follow the pattern in Europe, the US and elsewhere, then Canadian cities will develop no-go third world ghettoes where shootings will occur, and no one will care.

[The Honest Politician]

Glad to see no one is going on a witch hunt for a reason to youth violence.

Immigrants! They are the problem!

It has nothing to do with the fact a 15yr old kid can make as much money selling crack, as an architect or engineer. It would be nice to blame it on the immigrants but I know too many white homegrown sociopaths to believe it is mainly their fault.

[BubberMiley]

That's not to mention the Aboriginal gangs. Who let them in?

[Canuck E Stan]

Man killed at busy California mall

The California shooting came a day after gunfire broke out in a throng of Boxing Day shoppers on a busy Toronto street. A 15-year-old woman was killed and six other bystanders were injured.

A 15 year old woman?

Canadian press needs to raise their age of adults and keep our children,children.

[BubberMiley]

I wouldn't have used the comma between the two children, and I wouldn't have read anything into the quote. Woman, child, girl...who cares?

[Canuck E Stan]

Blubber,

You obviously don't have a 15 year old child.I do.

[canuckcat]

What we did was to allow into Canada, massive numbers of young people who were already alienated from their mothers, from cultures in which there usually were no fathers. This happened thirty years ago, after we started letting the black maids, housekeepers and nannies we imported from the Carribean become citizens and then sponsor their families, mainly children,for the rate of unwed motherhood in Carribean countries is immense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How can you explain a similar type of problem in the lower mainland of British Columbia (Surrey, Van, etc)? The gangs there are of East Indian and Asian descent. Their parents are anything but poor single mothers. Most of them come from privileged backgrounds – either middle class or wealthy families having both parents and even extended families.

This problem arises from popular culture that glorifies gang membership and all the cheap thrills and unearned money that accompany it. I’m sure we’ve all heard the gansta rappers talk about their bling and hos and whatnot. There is an entire subculture that most of us cannot even begin to understand.

This gangsta culture arose about twenty years ago in the United States. It is a direct result of Ronald Regan’s so called war on drugs. It was really a war on the American people. More specifically it was a war on Black Americans – which is what it was all about.

So many Black Americans were arrested or incarcerated that incarceration itself lost its stigma – in fact it became a rite of passage. The incarceration of nonviolent drug offenders has had a devastating effect on the social fabric of Black America. Prison is the perfect place to make better criminals.

This American-inspired culture has been transmitted by popular media to much of the Western world and beyond – Canada is no exception. Add to that a free-flow of guns over the US-Can border and we have arrived at where we are now.

This problem was created by conservative policies not by liberal policies.

[Canuck E Stan]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[BHS]

What we did was to allow into Canada, massive numbers of young people who were already alienated from their mothers, from cultures in which there usually were no fathers. This happened thirty years ago, after we started letting the black maids, housekeepers and nannies we imported from the Carribean become citizens and then sponsor their families, mainly children,for the rate of unwed motherhood in Carribean countries is immense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How can you explain a similar type of problem in the lower mainland of British Columbia (Surrey, Van, etc)? The gangs there are of East Indian and Asian descent. Their parents are anything but poor single mothers. Most of them come from privileged backgrounds – either middle class or wealthy families having both parents and even extended families.

This problem arises from popular culture that glorifies gang membership and all the cheap thrills and unearned money that accompany it. I’m sure we’ve all heard the gansta rappers talk about their bling and hos and whatnot. There is an entire subculture that most of us cannot even begin to understand.

This gangsta culture arose about twenty years ago in the United States. It is a direct result of Ronald Regan’s so called war on drugs. It was really a war on the American people. More specifically it was a war on Black Americans – which is what it was all about.

So many Black Americans were arrested or incarcerated that incarceration itself lost its stigma – in fact it became a rite of passage. The incarceration of nonviolent drug offenders has had a devastating effect on the social fabric of Black America. Prison is the perfect place to make better criminals.

This American-inspired culture has been transmitted by popular media to much of the Western world and beyond – Canada is no exception. Add to that a free-flow of guns over the US-Can border and we have arrived at where we are now.

This problem was created by conservative policies not by liberal policies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Street gang culture in the United States dates back as far as the 1920s. The most notorious of the modern gangs, the Crips, was founded in 1969 as a product of youthful admiration for the Black Panthers and other political movements. Since the death of Tookie Williams has been all over the news lately, I took the liberty of looking these things up. Blaming gang violence on Ronald Reagan is like blaming terrorism on Bill Clinton.

[Riverwind]

How can you explain a similar type of problem in the lower mainland of British Columbia (Surrey, Van, etc)?  The gangs there are of East Indian and Asian descent. Their parents are anything but poor single mothers. Most of them come from privileged backgrounds – either middle class or wealthy families having both parents and even extended families.

A big difference: the East Indian community is not blaming racism or poverty for the behavior and is, for the most part, acknowledging that a breakdown in communication between parents and children as one of the main causes. This honestly about the source of the problem leads me to believe that the East Indian community will be able to deal with it.

This American-inspired culture has been transmitted by popular media to much of the Western world and beyond – Canada is no exception. Add to that a free-flow of guns over the US-Can border and we have arrived at where we are now.

The Liberals have not/cannot do anything about the pervasive American culture coming across the border. In fact, the left wing obsession with 'root causes' and a willingness to accept excuses for all types of anti-social behavior have allowed this culture to spread in Canada.

[August1991]

Glad to see no one is going on a witch hunt for a reason to youth violence.

Immigrants! They are the problem! 

It has nothing to do with the fact a 15yr old kid can make as much money selling crack, as an architect or engineer. It would be nice to blame it on the immigrants but I know too many white homegrown sociopaths to believe it is mainly their fault.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought we were all immigrants. Look, no one is claiming that all criminals are immigrants or that all immigrants are criminals.

It has nothing to do with the fact a 15yr old kid can make as much money selling crack, as an architect or engineer. It would be nice to blame it on the immigrants but I know too many white homegrown sociopaths to believe it is mainly their fault.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then why aren't all 15 year olds selling crack? And why is it OK to refer to "white" sociopaths but it is inexcusable to use the word "immigrant"?

This problem was created by conservative policies not by liberal policies.

Does that mean I can go and rob a bank and blame it on Ronald Reagan?

----

I fear this is another issue that will simply divide along partisan lines, and in English-Canada, that usually refers to one's opinions of the US.

[The Honest Politician]

I thought we were all immigrants. Look, no one is claiming that all criminals are immigrants or that all immigrants are criminals.

Where are you coming from?

Did you not read the original post? Gang youth violence apparently is a direct cause of the unsupervied children of immigrants.

Then why aren't all 15 year olds selling crack? And why is it OK to refer to "white" sociopaths but it is inexcusable to use the word "immigrant"?

Because not all 15 year old want to risk being killed, or thrown in jail. Not all 15 year olds are brought up in a situation where turning to street gangs is a credible option.

Again, did you not read the original post? The poster was trying blame immigrants for the violence in our streets. That is a crock. The streets were violent when my Grandfather was a baby. There has always been violence in the city and it is not due to immigrants of colour. Yes I referred to "white sociopaths" because I do know some, and they are known for violence and they are "white". Not some unsupervised child of an immigrant of colour. Is there a PC term I should use like "Pigmentally Challenged"? Did you have a point? Or were you sniping my post for fun?

[BubberMiley]

Blubber,

You obviously  don't have a 15 year old child.I do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How do you feel about the young offender's act (and whatever they call the act that replaced it)?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

I fear this is another issue that will simply divide along partisan lines, and in English-Canada, that usually refers to one's opinions of the US.

I share this fear, mostly because it is unproductive and somewhat misplaced. 'Unsupervised' children reared by television and popular culture, and not their parents, are IMV, the main catalyst in the degradation of society.

There was a study done on the streets of Calgary recently, (withing the last 5 years) and it found that most of the 'street kids' were from middle-to-upper middle class families where both parents were working, mostly in the corporate sector. Many kids (13-17 yr olds) felt that they were more of a 'family' with the other street kids than at home.

[crazymf]

Well, seeing as how we are a socialist oriented country (Trudeau), why not have most of the young punks conscripted into the biggest boys gang in the country and instill a father figure into them and force them to reallize what Canadian values are.

ie. Military

If they want to play with guns, let them, pay them to do it. Send them to Iraq to shoot at legitimate targets.

Maybe the punk gang thing won't be so attractive when they get back

[PocketRocket]

IMHO, a lot of the responsibility lies with parents who think their children can do no wrong.

Look at the sexual assault incident a while back in the high school.

Don't remember exactly where, but there was a thread or two here about it.

The incident involved several boys assaulting a girl over the course of many months.

One such assault took place in a school stairwell.

The mother of one of the boys went on record saying her son "would never" do something like that.

She "knew" he hadn't done anything because he had never told her about anything like that.

Uh-huh. Like a kid is going to come home from school and say "Had a math test today, dissected a frog in biology class, oh, and by the way, me and the boys gang-raped a girl in the schoolyard".

With that in mind, I'm gonna relate a little anecdote to which I personally bore witness.

A few years back, I lived about 20 miles outside of Sudbury in a fairly secluded area which had formerly been a vacation trailer park, and is now a small, residential hamlet.

Our next-door neighbours had 3 kids.

The oldest, about 16 at the time, was a holy terror.

He wrecked a snowmobile of mine, as well as a 10-speed bicycle.

On both occasions, I was out of town on business, and he had told his parents that I had given him permission to use both items.

When I approached them, they vehemently denied that he would do something like that without permission, and that I must have forgotten giving him permission, despite the fact that he had done exactly the same thing to them by hot-wiring their ATV when they were out, and totally destroying it. Twice.

This went on with all 3 kids.

No matter what the kids did, or what accusations were brought by myself or other neighbours, the answer was always "He said he didn't do it, so he didn't do it".

The eldest is now serving time for murder.

The other two have both been charged on more than one occasion.

The charges range from selling dope to minors, to assault and battery, to breaking and entering.

A friend of mine was on the jury during one of their trials.

The parent took the stand as character witnesses saying, you guessed it, that their kid would NEVER do something like that.

BTW, the murderer tried to sell, to his own father, the car which had belonged to the murder victim. Apparently the dead body of the victim was in the trunk of the car at the time.

Nice kids.

Poster children for the pro-choice movement.

But then, the same could be said of the parents.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear PocketRocket,

With that in mind, I'm gonna relate a little anecdote to which I personally bore witness.

A sobering tale indeed. It reminds me of something BHS said a while ago, when we were talking about 'parental responsibility' and theft. Something like "my dad would have kicked my ass up and down the street had I been caught stealing"...

Some blame 'political correctness' for the apparent lack of discipline and respect in today's society, and they are not completely wrong. But, truly, if people are born 'tabula rasa' then the parents, first and foremost, are responsible for what gets written on the slate under the heading 'Morals'.

[crazymf]

Well yeah, there's the parent thing. That legitimate in a lot of cases.

My 16 year old son recently left home, last week. He has continually rejected the notion of working for our family run business even though the coin was good. He has rejected all attempts by myself and his mother to instill responsibility and self motivation. Nothing has worked.

He sees the greener grass on the other side of the fence and wants to live some other way than has been provided for him. He has been accelerated in school and although his grades are average, will graduate next month at 16.5 years old.

To my knowledge, he does no drugs or is doing anything illegal. He's chosen to live with a buddies family and start a new life for himself outside our home. I just hope he makes good choices for his life. He could easily get swayed to the dark side.

I blame the media and the left wing teaching system in our schools that have instilled the doctrine of independence over traditional values in our children.

Somehow, my son has the opinion that he would rather do it all himself the hard way, than be a kid, comply to the family values, and then reap the benefits of such.

That's after being a good parent with the same spouse, everything normal.

Sometimes the kid is just to blame, nothing else. Where do they get these ideas??

Media and teachers.

[PocketRocket]

Dear PocketRocket,

With that in mind, I'm gonna relate a little anecdote to which I personally bore witness.

A sobering tale indeed. It reminds me of something BHS said a while ago, when we were talking about 'parental responsibility' and theft. Something like "my dad would have kicked my ass up and down the street had I been caught stealing"...

Some blame 'political correctness' for the apparent lack of discipline and respect in today's society, and they are not completely wrong. But, truly, if people are born 'tabula rasa' then the parents, first and foremost, are responsible for what gets written on the slate under the heading 'Morals'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Regarding BHS' tale, damn straight. When I was a kid, if accusations were brought against us by a neighbouring adult, we were presumed guilty until proven innocent.

Spankings were meted out as needed.

Now you can't raise a hand to your kid or you risk being charged with assault, or abuse.

[canuckcat]

  It is a direct result of Ronald Regan’s so called war on drugs. It was really a war on the American people. More specifically it was a war on Black Americans – which is what it was all about.

So many Black Americans were arrested or incarcerated that incarceration itself lost its stigma – in fact it became a rite of passage.  The incarceration of nonviolent drug offenders has had a devastating effect on the social fabric of Black America. Prison is the perfect place to make better criminals.

This problem was created by conservative policies not by liberal policies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Street gang culture in the United States dates back as far as the 1920s. The most notorious of the modern gangs, the Crips, was founded in 1969 as a product of youthful admiration for the Black Panthers and other political movements. Since the death of Tookie Williams has been all over the news lately, I took the liberty of looking these things up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There were street gangs in ancient Rome. I'm talking about the culture that has arisen in the US because of the high incarceration rates among American Blacks.

If you are so interested in doing research, you should check out the current level of incarceration in the US - overall and non-white. Surprisingly high. Shocking, actually.

[Argus]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A more intelligent response than normal for you.

[Argus]

Glad to see no one is going on a witch hunt for a reason to youth violence.

Immigrants! They are the problem! 

It has nothing to do with the fact a 15yr old kid can make as much money selling crack, as an architect or engineer. It would be nice to blame it on the immigrants but I know too many white homegrown sociopaths to believe it is mainly their fault.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay, let's say it has nothing to do with immigrants. Why are all the violent street gang members made up of immigrants and their kids? Why don't we have street gangs full of young blonde guys out shooting each other and innocent bystanders in the streets?

Some violent street gangs in major Canadian cities:

Vancouver area: Independent Solidiers—primarily Indo-Canadian members; UN Gang—mostly Indo-Canadians, Asians, Persians.

Toronto: Some black gangs derived from Bloods and Crips in the United States but may not be derivatives of the founding American gangs. Asian, Latino and Tamil gangs also prevalent in the city.

Montreal: Some Haitian and Jamaican gangs:

The Reds—for Bloods; the Blues—for Crips.

Calgary and Edmonton: Self-named Asian gangs FOB (Fresh off the Boat, although many members born in Canada); FK (Fresh off the Boat Killers); Crazy Dragons, Crazy Dragon Killers.

Winnipeg: African street gang Mad Cowz; aboriginal gang Indian Posse.

Gang Members in Canada

[Argus]

I wonder how many of these shootings in Toronto are directly related to the Jamaican community.  I chose at random an article from today's

Jamaica has a population smaller then the city of Toronto (not the GTA, just the city) and it had over 1400 murders last year. Other Carribean countries also have very high crime rates, ie Trinidad, Bahamas, Haiti.

And no, I'm not saying this is a black thing. Most African countries are far, far less violent (exepting political violence).