Canadian Defence News

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

For evidence of that infiltration look no further than the LPOC. 

Our global adversaries don't even need to attack our domestic energy production or try to cause division and strife within our country, they just have to prop up the Libs. 

well exaclty

the enemy is within

the Chinese Communists are not coming with tanks to roll down Yonge street

they are bribing our government right out from under us

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

Afghanistan conflict was not a normal conflict, meaning NATO had established modern mega bases all around Afghanistan, Kandahar, had well over 20,000 troops in it at any one time...that being said it was subject to rocket and arty attacks and a few direct operations against the entrances to the camp.. other than that it was like being at the mall in Canada where you could find Tim hornets, and Pizza, and the all the latest burger places... what made this conflict different was, while you were relative safe inside the wire, everyone that went outside the wire was a target, and it was not if you were going to be attacked it was when you where going to be attacked. The front line started as soon as you drove off base...

One of the many reasons we limited deaths and injuries was traveling in company size elements, which would spend weeks at a time outside the wire just driving looking for bad guys, we would arrive in the middle of the night and then come morning we would engage bad guys until prayer times, fighting would stop we would get resupplied , after prayer time do it all again or until they had enough...most of the time they gave up pretty fast, 15 LAVIII along with 150 grunts and fast air or Arty  on call...despite hopw many we would kill, the next morning their was always more to kill...

Upgraded equipment only came after a certain amount of soldiers gad died, we could have cut casualties by 80 % hjad we realized on helo support for resupply, and moving troops... Iltis jeep was replace by the G-wagon, so we upgraded from a soft top to a hard top with no more protection than your car roof..., we stopped using LSVW and MLVW for the same reason to soft, even with armored glass...what other equipment we did buy like the M-777 was for Afghanistan with a few training pieces for Canada, rented Russian helos, then US CH-147, all to late and a dollar short...The logistic truck fleet was the best buy the Army ever purchased, once again, only for Afghanistan, and now sitting in depot waiting for the next call...We learned a shit ton of lessons learned, like having helos , even attack helos would have saved lots of lives...

The conflict did result in some tech advancements, like be able to listen and track any cell phone conversation for long distances , we developed the ability to jam cell phone and other frequencies used in IED's, equipment to spot buried IED's at driving speeds, the ability to track any small arms or missile launch down to a 12 figure grid square while on the move,  lots of drone tech, which they threw out at the end of the conflict... I guess the objective here is the conflict is over and those tools have been put away or sold...and very few lessons learned were actually actioned...and what were like the TAPV is garbage....

War is war and "2010 and 2012, ISAF had 400 military bases throughout Afghanistan (compared to 300 for the ANSF)^[7] and roughly 130,000 troops. A total of 42 countries contributed troops to ISAF, including all 30 members of NATO."

Canada was a small, very small contributor and did nothing on it's own. Canada was directed to do what it did and when.

When our soldiers started to come home dead, the public was very much interested in the Military and put tremendous pressure on the conservative government to get better and more equipment.

Unfortunately, Canadians have a short memory.

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

 take Australia and Nuke subs... thats a huge compromise for both the US and UK... considering Australia just spent 300 Bil on new defense items last year...

Canada is not a Frozen Australia

Canada is a Giant New Zealand

[BeaverFever]

9 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Matchee was just following orders

Nobody who tortures a kid with that much sadistic enthusiasm is “just following orders”. Matchee’s lifelong brain damage is the best punishment I could imagine, I hope he remembers everything that got him there. Unfortunately others like Kyle Brown and any bystanders/enablers got off easy 

Edited August 1, 2023 by BeaverFever

[ExFlyer]

14 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

yeah, he wasn't completely unaware, he didn't know who I was, he just stared at me with a vacant look in his eyes

I wasn't expecting to see him,  I just walked past an open room and glanced in

then after a couple steps, I thought, holy f*ck that was Matchee

so then I looked back in and he stared at me

so I just nodded involuntarily in the face of him

and he nodded back without any real recognition 

Lets not forget or conveniently miss why he tried to commit suicide. He was arrested and charged with second degree murder and torture of Sidane Akubar Arone.

Making him some kind of hero is misguided worship.

[Dougie93]

4 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Lets not forget or conveniently miss why he tried to commit suicide. He was arrested and charged with second degree murder and torture of Sidane Akubar Arone.

Making him some kind of hero is misguided worship.

I never said Matchee was a hero

he's a war criminal

but so are the commanders who issued the unlawful order to "rough up the prisoners"

furthermore, Matchee,  along with the rest of 2 Commando;  had been dosed with Mefloquine

which was not certified for use on humans, because it was known to cause psychosis

so first the Government of Canada used the Airborne Regiment as unwitting guinea pigs

for a drug which was known to cause psychotic breaks

then the chain of command issued 2 Commando with unlawful orders to commit war crimes

then Matchee seemed to succumb to psychosis while obeying an unlawful order

Edited August 1, 2023 by Dougie93

[ExFlyer]

19 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

the most important thing to remember therein

is that Matchee was just following orders

because 2 Commando had been ordered by the chain of command to "rough the prisoners up"

Again, conjecture.

No evidence and proof

"rough the prisoners up"" can be many things and in this case, it ended up being torture and murder by one group of soldiers (of many groups). This group was out of control and self promoted the torture and murder.

Edited August 1, 2023 by ExFlyer

[ExFlyer]

50 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I never said Matchee was a hero

he's a war criminal

but so are the commanders who issued the unlawful order to "rough up the prisoners"

furthermore, Matchee,  along with the rest of 2 Commando;  had been dosed with Mefloquine

which was not certified for use on humans, because it was known to cause psychosis

so first the Government of Canada used the Airborne Regiment as unwitting guinea pigs

for a drug which was known to cause psychotic breaks

then the chain of command issued 2 Commando with unlawful orders to commit war crimes

then Matchee seemed to succumb to psychosis while obeying an unlawful order

Mefloquine is still in use. It is also used by the American Marines. It is used when personnel are dispatched to areas where malaria is a problem.

Your unlawful order comments are without substance.

He was in jail and succumbed to his own demons, not induced.He did what he did to fit in to the group he was with. Thing is, they got caught.

"rough the prisoners up"" can be many things and in this case, it ended up being torture and murder by one group of soldiers (of many groups). This group was out of control and self promoted the torture and murder.

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by ExFlyer

[Dougie93]

3 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Again, conjecture.

No evidence and proof

"rough the prisoners up"" can be many things and in this case, it ended up being torture and murder by one group of soldiers (of many groups). This group was out of control and self promoted the torture and murder.

it's all written in the report issued by the Somalia Inquiry

Shidane Arone was an unarmed non combatant taken prisoner only for being a thief

which made him a protected person under the Geneva Conventions

any order to treat him other than by the terms of Geneva was inherently unlawful and by definition a war crime therein

every member of the chain of command issued such an order

is bound by national and international law and the laws of armed conflict to decline to obey it

[Dougie93]

13 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Nobody who tortures a kid with that much sadistic enthusiasm is “just following orders”. Matchee’s lifelong brain damage is the best punishment I could imagine, I hope he remembers everything that got him there. Unfortunately others like Kyle Brown and any bystanders/enablers got off easy 

"The Canadian encampment in Belet Huen was repeatedly the target of Somali looters trying to break through the perimeter at night in search of food, or whatever they could find.

In response to the break-ins, the Canadian commander, Lt.-Col. Carol Mathieu, authorized his men to shoot looters in the legs if they ran from soldiers patrolling the compound. Another senior officer granted permission for thieves to be captured and abused.

On several occasions through January and February of 1993, Canadian soldiers fired at Somalis fleeing from the camp. In some cases, they had taken intruders into custody, beating them and taking trophy-style photographs of their captives. None of these actions led to any discipline against the troops who carried them out.

Then on the night of 4 March 1993, a small group of Canadian troops laid a trap for people trying to sneak into the compound: they left food and water as bait near a perimeter fence and waited in the dark. Two Somalis broke through the fence and grabbed the food. When the soldiers ordered the intruders to halt, the Somalis fled. The Canadians shot both in the back, killing a man named Achmed Aruush.

More than a week later, on the night of 16 March a 16-year-old named Shidane Arone, broke into the compound and was taken prisoner. Tied up and blindfolded in a holding area, the teenager was beaten and tortured for hours — punched and kicked, the soles of his feet burned with a cigarillo and his shins struck with a metal bar. Arone pleaded for the soldiers to stop, crying, “Canada, Canada, Canada.” Bruised and bleeding, he was dead by the morning. Much of his suffering was photographed by his abusers, including paratroopers Master-Cpl. Clayton Matchee and Private Kyle Brown. Other soldiers who did not take part in the beatings could hear Arone’s screams and pleas for mercy but did nothing to intervene."

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/somalia-affair

 

[Dougie93]

4 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

.He did what he did to fit in to the group he was with.

that group was the chain of command, from the CO on down

who not only authorized these activities, but actually instituted them as procedure

[ExFlyer]

6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

that group was the chain of command, from the CO on down

who not only authorized these activities, but actually instituted them as procedure

The torture was conducted and "Tied up and blindfolded in a holding area, the teenager was beaten and tortured for hours — punched and kicked, the soles of his feet burned with a cigarillo and his shins struck with a metal bar. Arone pleaded for the soldiers to stop, crying, “Canada, Canada, Canada.” Bruised and bleeding, he was dead by the morning. Much of his suffering was photographed by his abusers, including paratroopers Master-Cpl. Clayton Matchee and Private Kyle Brown. "  from your own cut and paste.

No "chain of command" person was there and when "chain of command "granted permission for thieves to be captured and abused"  and I am certain it was not to torture a person as described in your cut and paste. Abuse is a looong way from torture.

You do seem to take Matchees side on this?? I hope you do not think he is or was a good soldier.

Edited August 1, 2023 by ExFlyer

[BeaverFever]

40 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

"The Canadian encampment in Belet Huen was repeatedly the target of Somali looters trying to break through the perimeter at night in search of food, or whatever they could find.

In response to the break-ins, the Canadian commander, Lt.-Col. Carol Mathieu, authorized his men to shoot looters in the legs if they ran from soldiers patrolling the compound. Another senior officer granted permission for thieves to be captured and abused.

On several occasions through January and February of 1993, Canadian soldiers fired at Somalis fleeing from the camp. In some cases, they had taken intruders into custody, beating them and taking trophy-style photographs of their captives. None of these actions led to any discipline against the troops who carried them out.

Then on the night of 4 March 1993, a small group of Canadian troops laid a trap for people trying to sneak into the compound: they left food and water as bait near a perimeter fence and waited in the dark. Two Somalis broke through the fence and grabbed the food. When the soldiers ordered the intruders to halt, the Somalis fled. The Canadians shot both in the back, killing a man named Achmed Aruush.

More than a week later, on the night of 16 March a 16-year-old named Shidane Arone, broke into the compound and was taken prisoner. Tied up and blindfolded in a holding area, the teenager was beaten and tortured for hours — punched and kicked, the soles of his feet burned with a cigarillo and his shins struck with a metal bar. Arone pleaded for the soldiers to stop, crying, “Canada, Canada, Canada.” Bruised and bleeding, he was dead by the morning. Much of his suffering was photographed by his abusers, including paratroopers Master-Cpl. Clayton Matchee and Private Kyle Brown. Other soldiers who did not take part in the beatings could hear Arone’s screams and pleas for mercy but did nothing to intervene."

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/somalia-affair

 

Yep like I said many in the CAR who were involved or had knowledge got off easy. Matchee was not simply “following orders” with his sadistic abuse, which as you surely know is no excuse anyway as was established in Nuremberg 

[Dougie93]

12 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Yep like I said many in the CAR who were involved or had knowledge got off easy. Matchee was not simply “following orders” with his sadistic abuse, which as you surely know is no excuse anyway as was established in Nuremberg 

indeed, Matchee committed war crimes and so did Kyle Brown

but in the military the principle is that the commander is responsible for the conduct of his troops

the chain of command not only issued orders to abuse prisoners, it was made into operating procedure

Matchee & Brown are not the only ones who did it, that had been going on for weeks

in terms of Kyle Brown, not to absolve him of his crimes, but he was a really nice guy

he was not a bully, he was not a tough guy, he was quiet and shy

I just think he didn't have the confidence to stand up to Matchee

Edited August 2, 2023 by Dougie93

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

I didn't know him well, but I did encounter him on occasion down at Sassy's

when he first joined the Airborne Regiment, he was a skinny socially awkward Indian

apparently they picked on him quite brutally, 2 Commando was a harsh realm

then Matchee hit the gym and pumped a lot of iron, he went from skinny to bulked out

then he became an intimidating bully himself

but by all accounts of the guys I knew in 2 Commando, he was respected as a soldier

you don't get to be a Master Jack in 2 Commando unless you are in fact an elite soldier

I found that if you didn't back down to him, if you stood up to him, then he would cut you respect

the classic kid who got bullied, then became a bully, but who could be put in his place if you called him on it

He still was part of the group that captured and tortured a person to death. A willing member of that group. Do not defend or make excuses and yes, that is what you are doing.

You do get promoted in any army regiment after the automatic promotion to corporal. Sheer attrition gets you promoted even if you are not what soldiers need to be. If you don't get at least one promotion, you are really bad.

No sympathy for him.

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

He still was part of the group that captured and tortured a person to death.

the group was the Airborne Regiment

because the chain of command had instituted capturing and torturing prisoners as an operating procedure

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

you don't get to be a Master Jack in 2 Commando

I thought he was Cpl

[Dougie93]

10 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

I thought he was Cpl

no, Matchee passed his ISCC

first Matchee had to pass Basic Para at Trenton

then he had to pass Airborne Indocrination,  which was one of the hardest bag drives there was

then he had to get through the first year in the Airborne Regiment, brutal hazing

then he had to pass secondary skills qualification to make Corporal

then he had to pass the Infantry Section Commanders Course at the PPCLI Battleshcool to make Master Corporal

Edited August 2, 2023 by Dougie93

[BeaverFever]

51 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

no, Matchee passed his ISCC

first Matchee had to pass Basic Para at Trenton

then he had to pass Airborne Indocrination,  which was one of the hardest bag drives there was

then he had to get through the first year in the Airborne Regiment, brutal hazing

then he had to pass secondary skills qualification to make Corporal

then he had to pass the Infantry Section Commanders Course at the PPCLI Battleshcool to make Master Corporal

then had to come back to be a Master Corporal in 2 Commando,

the harshest realm in the history of the Canadian Forces

by definition, Matchee was a super soldier

he was an Olympic level tactical athlete, he was exceptionally fit

he could run sixteen miles with a hundred pound rucksack on his back

never mind fifty push ups, he could do fifty chin ups

after he hit the gym, Matchee was a beast, he was the the very model of a Paratrooper

any infantry soldier had to respect his prowess to close with & destroy

and as you know, he did not question orders

if Matchee was ordered to annihilate somebody, which he was

that would happen, which it did

he was a killing machine, in a role which is state sanctioned mass murder, the infantry

no quarter, no mercy, as we were all indoctrinated at Battleschool

every man in the Airborne Regiment was elite, only the elite could survive it

Ex Coelis

Sounds like there was some steroid rage going on there too then 

[Dougie93]

9 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Sounds like there was some steroid rage going on there too then 

definitely some guys were doing steroid

I don't know about Matchee tho

he didn't have the steroid look to him

thing about Matchee, he had the big frame

he was tall, so when he added muscle to the frame, he was a force

but he wasn't overly cut, he wasn't shredded, so I didn't think he was on the juice

Matchee wasn't a body builder type, he was just big, lean & strong

Edited August 2, 2023 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

19 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Sounds like there was some steroid rage going on there too then 

you have this image in your mind of Matchee as being some kind of monster

but having met him, I don't think of him like that

he was honestly like an oversized boy,  he was immature

so I remember him as being a tall skinny socially awkward Indian kid who got picked on by the Commando

this photo of Matchee here,  that's my memory of him

Edited August 2, 2023 by Dougie93

[BeaverFever]

7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

you have this image in your mind of Matchee as being some kind of monster

but having met him, I don't think of him like that

he was honestly like an oversized boy,  he was immature

so I remember him as being a tall skinny socially awkward Indian kid who got picked on by the Commando

this photo of Matchee here,  that's my memory of him

Is that a confederate flag behind him?

[Dougie93]

6 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Is that a confederate flag behind him?

those came from the 82nd Airborne Division

the 82nd Airborne Division used to come to Petawawa to train

they would fly from North Carolina and jump into Drop Zone Anzio in Pet

then they would be the life of the party, we would party with the American Paratroopers

we would take them to Ottawa & Hull to party at the clubs

the 82nd Airborne would bring things with them to trade

one of their favourite things to trade, was the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia

the Airborne Regiment kind of idolized the 82nd Airborne as being the big leagues

so the Airborne started putting the Battle Flag up in the windows of their Barracks, Normandy Barracks

pretty soon. the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia was everywhere in Pet

the Canadians didn't honestly understand the historical significance

they just thought about it as an Airborne thing not a Confederate thing

Edited August 2, 2023 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

56 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Is that a confederate flag behind him?

now you do understand that neither Clayton Matchee nor Kyle Brown is white ?

Clayton Matchee is Cree

Kyle Brown is Metis

so neither of them was a "white supremacist"

quite the opposite, they were both proud Indians, they would not identify as white men

they are both "Indigenous" by today's Canadians standards

so the whole "white supremacy" angle of the murder of Shidane Arone is nonsense

he wasn't killed by white men, he was killed by the "indigenous"

 

[Dougie93]

12 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

You do seem to take Matchees side on this?? I hope you do not think he is or was a good soldier.

what are the "sides" ?

Beaver mentioned the "enablers"

I simply pointed out the conclusions of the Somalia Inquiry

which was that the chain of command had made torturing the prisoners into a mission

Matchee didn't take upon himself to kidnap and torture Shidane Arone, he was ordered to do it

he would have had to defy the chain of command, on the ground in theatre,  to do otherwise

it is hard to imagine a JR defying the CO by refusing a mission, in the field on operations

in terms of his qualities as a soldier, he was ISCC qualified, so he must have been above average at least

Edited August 2, 2023 by Dougie93