China's unrelenting influence campaign in Canada

[I am Groot]

Andrew Coyne has a great summary of most of what's been happening, and some great questions we need any public inquiry to answer. Assuming, of course, that Johnson doesn't figure out a way to say one isn't needed without completely and utterly trashing his public reputation.

• Intelligence reports say that China wanted to help the Liberals get re-elected. Why?
• Were the intelligence reports broadly correct in their assessments: that is, was China attempting to interfere, in the ways described?
• Who knew what when? Is it conceivable that not one of these multiple reports over several years could have reached a minister’s desk, the Prime Minister’s in particular? What about their advisers?
• If so, what does that say about how we are governed, if critical intelligence on a pressing matter of national security never reaches the final decision-makers? But if not, then why would they lie about it?
• And the ultimate question, assuming somebody knew: Why was nothing done about any of it? Was it incompetence? Negligence? Or was a deliberate choice made to look the other way – perhaps out of embarrassment at having been played by the Chinese regime, an inability to admit that they bet the farm on China, and lost? Worse, was it because, as Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre has suggested, the Liberals benefited from it? Or worse yet, was it out of fear of what might come out: potentially, that certain Liberals had been compromised?

https://archive.ph/vymEn

[I am Groot]

China has an unusual number of 'diplomats' in Canada. Three times more than it has in Australia, more than it has in the UK, almost the same number as it has in the US. Most of them are spies.

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/why-does-canada-have-a-disproportionately-high-number-of-chinese-diplomats-1.6408620

[ExFlyer]

Why did Michael Chong, his campaign, his managers or his staff not know anything about this at the time it was happeneng?

If the Chinese were directly targeting him and he did not know a thing until years after when CSIS mentioned it? How is that??

Edited May 23, 2023 by ExFlyer

[Moonbox]

If the Chinese government was intimidating your relatives in China, how well do you think it's going to go for them if they complain about it to you in Canada?  

 

[eyeball]

I've said it before, I'll say it again and I'll keep saying it until the day I die.  We need to monitor our governments to the extent that Orwell himself would blush.

Andrew Coyne knows this too.  He even commented on a letter to the editor I wrote to the Nat Post well over 20 years ago where I said the same thing.

I know I know, there's 380 MPs and only 38 million of us....

It's just so unfair.? 

[eyeball]

Of course the MSM probably won't like the idea of a government saturated with public access  - they'll be reduced to being spectators and commentators like anybody else.

[ExFlyer]

30 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

If the Chinese government was intimidating your relatives in China, how well do you think it's going to go for them if they complain about it to you in Canada?  

 

Are you saying Michael Chongs relatives were being intimated? Are you saying he did know about chinese interference in his campaign?

[eyeball]

6 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Are you saying Michael Chongs relatives were being intimated? Are you saying he did know about chinese interference in his campaign?

How could he not know?  The poor guy must feel boxed in from every side like no one else.  The pressure he's under must be immense.

Andrew Coyne wrote in the article how this whole issue about interference and who knew what and so on should cause us to ask questions about how we govern ourselves.  I can't think of a better time for a man of principles like Michael Chong to have emerged near the center of all this.  The time for focusing public attention on governance is now.

[ExFlyer]

9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

How could he not know?  The poor guy must feel boxed in from every side like no one else.  The pressure he's under must be immense.

Andrew Coyne wrote in the article how this whole issue about interference and who knew what and so on should cause us to ask questions about how we govern ourselves.  I can't think of a better time for a man of principles like Michael Chong to have emerged near the center of all this.  The time for focusing public attention on governance is now.

I agree.

Thing is though, the talk is sounding like he did not know and this was all a revelation.

We govern ourselves quite well. Political "interference" or "influencing" is an accepted tradition in any democracy. Be it the chinese, the americans or any corporation looking for something. Acting surprised is just show business.

As for Chong, he had to know all along and tried to make political hay but it is backfiring.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

Thing is though, the talk is sounding like he did not know and this was all a revelation.

I meant in terms of him knowing China was interfering in his and his family affairs. As for knowing what the government knew it appears Michael Chong was as out of the loop as any of us about this malgovernance.

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Why did Michael Chong, his campaign, his managers or his staff not know anything about this at the time it was happeneng?

If the Chinese were directly targeting him and he did not know a thing until years after when CSIS mentioned it? How is that??

They didn't act on it entirely apperently. They were preparing information and such in order to do so but hadn't pulled the trigger.

They probably would have if they though the conditions were right where they would get a big benefit and not get caught. 

[ExFlyer]

15 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I meant in terms of him knowing China was interfering in his and his family affairs. As for knowing what the government knew it appears Michael Chong was as out of the loop as any of us about this malgovernance.

For sure, the government agencies kept everyone in the dark.

As for Chong, I think he knew and did nothing, let alone report it. If he would have reported it, we all would have heard about it long before this.

[ExFlyer]

13 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

They didn't act on it entirely apperently. They were preparing information and such in order to do so but hadn't pulled the trigger.

They probably would have if they though the conditions were right where they would get a big benefit and not get caught. 

They?

The point I was making is that if the chinese were "intimidating" him and his family and he and his staff, managers et all were totally unaware, well, I find that hard to believe.

If he told anyone, I am sure action would have been taken during the campaign. For him to say he knew nothing is, in my opinion, false.

[I am Groot]

5 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Why did Michael Chong, his campaign, his managers or his staff not know anything about this at the time it was happeneng?

If the Chinese were directly targeting him and he did not know a thing until years after when CSIS mentioned it? How is that??

Why would he know where the anti-Chong messages are coming from? How would he know what money is being funneled to whom? 

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

I agree.

Thing is though, the talk is sounding like he did not know and this was all a revelation.

We govern ourselves quite well. Political "interference" or "influencing" is an accepted tradition in any democracy. Be it the chinese, the americans or any corporation looking for something. Acting surprised is just show business.

Yeaah, you're full of shit. Deliberate, orchestrated political interference by a hostile foreign government that includes recruiting and intimidating local expatriates, making their foreign students here illegally vote in candidate meetings, bussing expatriates in from other ridings, and funneling dark money to them is not an accepted tradition in our democracy.

I realize that to people like you it would be far preferable to have Canada completely controlled by China rather than risk a Conservative government, but most of the rest of us are not so comfortable with authoritarianism.

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

They?

Yes - sorry did you need to have it explained who we were talking about when we refer to the chinese gov't interfering? I kind of felt that was obvious.

 

 

2 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

The point I was making is that if the chinese were "intimidating" him and his family and he and his staff, managers et all were totally unaware, well, I find that hard to believe.

They were "Targeting" him.  That means a variety of things.  Collecting information, preparing to take action against relatives such as getting them fired or harassing or the like which requires prep, perhaps funnelling money into his campaign so they can pressure him later, collecting "dirt" on him or his family that could be used to hurt or blackmail.

Just because you put someone in your crosshairs doesn't mean you've pulled the trigger. But if they found evidence that this kind of thing was happening and the chinese were PREPARING to pull the trigger if they wanted then that is something he and his family should know.

2 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

If he told anyone, I am sure action would have been taken during the campaign. For him to say he knew nothing is, in my opinion, false.

Well you're wrong, you just misunderstand what the concern here is.

[I am Groot]

8 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

For sure, the government agencies kept everyone in the dark.

Except for all those reports they were sending up the ladder to Trudeau and Blair and the privy council office and the PM's national security advisor, and the foreign affairs minister, you mean?

It's a vague possibility that the government was 'in the dark' on these matters, but only if they were so utterly uncaring about national security matters (which I grant you would not be out of character for them) that they couldn't be bothered to read any of the reports or memos.

[ExFlyer]

3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Why would he know where the anti-Chong messages are coming from? How would he know what money is being funneled to whom? 

Are you serious???

A candidate and his staff have to know where every penny comes form.

As well, if relatives in hong kong are being intimidated, you think he does not know?

[ExFlyer]

3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Yeaah, you're full of shit. Deliberate, orchestrated political interference by a hostile foreign government that includes recruiting and intimidating local expatriates, making their foreign students here illegally vote in candidate meetings, bussing expatriates in from other ridings, and funneling dark money to them is not an accepted tradition in our democracy.

I realize that to people like you it would be far preferable to have Canada completely controlled by China rather than risk a Conservative government, but most of the rest of us are not so comfortable with authoritarianism.

You a member of Chin's staff?? LOL

In one post you question "Why would he know where the anti-Chong messages are coming from? How would he know what money is being funneled to whom?  " and now defend my position by saying foreign governments interfere??

[ExFlyer]

3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Except for all those reports they were sending up the ladder to Trudeau and Blair and the privy council office and the PM's national security advisor, and the foreign affairs minister, you mean?

It's a vague possibility that the government was 'in the dark' on these matters, but only if they were so utterly uncaring about national security matters (which I grant you would not be out of character for them) that they couldn't be bothered to read any of the reports or memos.

 My point is that Chong was aware. If his family and relatives were targeted, you think he did not know.
You think he and his staff did not know where every penny came from?

If you think that then you are the one full of shit.

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

For sure, the government agencies kept everyone in the dark.

As for Chong, I think he knew and did nothing, let alone report it. If he would have reported it, we all would have heard about it long before this.

Everyone knows it's been going on for decades.

 

5 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

We govern ourselves quite well. Political "interference" or "influencing" is an accepted tradition in any democracy. Be it the chinese, the americans or any corporation looking for something. Acting surprised is just show business.

It sure is amongst politicians.

Another fine condescending tradition in Canada is to dismiss any expectation or suggestion from ordinary Canadians that our betters be held to better account.

What's in it for you by not doing so? You must figure it'll cost or harm you somehow. That it'll make things worse.

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

 My point is that Chong was aware. If his family and relatives were targeted, you think he did not know.
You think he and his staff did not know where every penny came from?

If you think that then you are the one full of shit.

What was he supposedly aware of and how? Specifics.

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

Are you serious???

A candidate and his staff have to know where every penny comes form.

It's not money going to him, you twat! You think China was directing money to him!? The money was directed to others to oppose him.

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

As well, if relatives in hong kong are being intimidated, you think he does not know?

It hasn't been established that the Chinese government acted on anything at that time.

Edited May 23, 2023 by I am Groot

[I am Groot]

58 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

You a member of Chin's staff?? LOL

No, nor a Liberal apologist.

58 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

In one post you question "Why would he know where the anti-Chong messages are coming from? How would he know what money is being funneled to whom?  " and now defend my position by saying foreign governments interfere??

I think you're having trouble reading.

[ExFlyer]

10 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

What was he supposedly aware of and how? Specifics.

It's not money going to him, your twat! You think China was directing money to him!? The money was directed to others to oppose him.

It hasn't been established that the Chinese government acted on anything at that time.

That his relatives were being intimidated by the chinese.

That he was receiving money from dubious sources.

It was his claims as he said in parliament..

 

7 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

No, nor a Liberal apologist.

I think you're having trouble reading.

I do not apologize for anyone but also do not drape myself in ant political blanket.

No, I can read quite well. Partisanship is easily detected LOL

Edited May 23, 2023 by ExFlyer

[I am Groot]

Just now, ExFlyer said:

That his relatives were being intimidated by the chinese.

That he was receiving money from dubious sources.

It was his claims.

Those are not his claims. 

Just now, ExFlyer said:

No, I can read quite well. Partisanship is easily detected LOL

Yes, and you exhibit that trait with every post.