Should the International Community Intervene in Haiti?

[Perspektiv]

5 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Was in Dominican once. They had men walking around with rifles...

Not surprised, as is quite common to see this in Haiti at banks, restaurants, etc.

I was in the Philippines recently, and its eerie, but gives a sense of comfort, to walk into a bank and see multiple guards with rifles opening the door for you.

There isn't a single one of my relatives in Haiti that don't own multiple guns. 

Mind you, I would never bring my wife there, as her getting kidnapped would be a risk I wouldn't be willing to take.

The elite there, must have bulletproof vehicles and heavy firepower if you want to be left alone.

Even then. 

One of my relatives was a high ranking government official in the US, and one of their family members still was ambushed by a gang in their motorcade. She made the mistake of flaunting her cash in a country growing more desperate by the minute. She bought a Cadillac Escalade even though relatives urged her to buy a more inconspicuous vehicle.

The corruption level is high in this country, in that if you don’t pay your men, expect them to turn on you.

The last president was killed via an inside job.

Its probably a job nobody wants, for the pay that its worth.

[Perspektiv]

5 hours ago, August1991 said:

The Right? It gets blamed for Somalia. 

Kind of sad, but Haiti has almost reached Somalia levels of corruption.

They have fallen a long way, from being a jewel in the Caribbean, to where it is now.

I was taken aback by the explosion in poverty in the Philippines during my last vacation there with the wife late last year. 

The sheer explosion in stray animals, petty thefts, homelessness and kids begging I had never experienced before (at this level).

Having to remember that in Haiti, the situation is similar, but on steroids. Going out with a nice car, risks you getting ambushed in their capital, raped and killed or if you're lucky, just robbed.

Their last earthquake was a knockout punch. They were already on wobbly footing, with a heavy amount of its infrastructure destroyed, then covid-19 happened.

It would be like a homeless person with a cart full of belongings having it set on fire. 

How do you expect someone that poor to be able to afford to recover from such a loss without help?

Issue is if they are addicted to drugs like Haitian politicians are addicted to corruption, you already know where every dollar you give them will go.

It always bothered me when people got upset that millions sent to Haiti for the earthquake didn't go to earthquake victims. It lined the pockets of the elite, and of course, they corrupted in spending millions to build lavish schools and neighborhoods for show, that nobody could afford. The remainder of the country's infrastructure for the most part, remained in shambles.

Knowing how corrupt that country is, it was shocking to me that people were shocked. No locals were even surprised.

Its literally like handing a crackhead 1, 000$ and being irritated the next time you see them, still homeless and disappointed they didn't take the onus to open a bank account and invest it like you would. Put money down on rent.

Its a crackhead! 

I see the Haitian government in the same light.

[August1991]

On 7/25/2023 at 5:26 AM, Perspektiv said:

Kind of sad, but Haiti has almost reached Somalia levels of corruption.

.....

Its literally like handing a crackhead 1, 000$ and being irritated the next time you see them, still homeless and disappointed they didn't take the onus to open a bank account and invest it like you would. Put money down on rent.

Its a crackhead! 

I see the Haitian government in the same light.

I read through your rant.

I am fearful that we in Canada are about to do the same for people registered under the federal Indian Act as "Indians".

[Perspektiv]

10 hours ago, August1991 said:

I read through your rant.

I am fearful that we in Canada are about to do the same for people registered under the federal Indian Act as "Indians".

So destroy their communities slowly, and throw money at them to keep them quiet about it?

[August1991]

On 7/28/2023 at 6:33 AM, Perspektiv said:

So destroy their communities slowly, and throw money at them to keep them quiet about it?

IMHO, the future is a far better place than the past.

Some people speak French, others English. More important, different people live together in peace.

====

Leftists/Progressives have made a mess of Haiti.

Edited July 30, 2023 by August1991

[Right To Left]

On 7/7/2023 at 5:25 AM, August1991 said:

In my life time, in China and in India - not millions but billions of ordinary people - live better.

The poverty in Haiti is not caused by capitalism.

Am I just supposed to accept your judgment that poverty is not caused by capitalism? Even though capitalists make no bones about the fact that even during average normal times, capitalism creates winners and losers. When capitalists try to embellish their terminology with crap like "Creative Destruction," most of us can figure out that destruction....whether creative or not, will benefit some/but not others.

Quote

 

And I reckon that leftist do-gooders trying to help Haitians have caused more harm.

Maybe dumping zillions of dollars on Haiti (Saudi-oil, Paul Martin, Trudeau Jnr "Indigineous"-style) might work. I doubt it. It will just be another Nigeria.

IMHO, like Singapore and China, they have to do it themselves

 

First off, "leftist dogooders" are liberal capitalists/not socialists. Think George Soros/not Karl Marx. The liberal capitalist believes in charity and sometimes (but not so much today) that the rich should pay a little bit higher tax rates than poor and middle class.

Most Haitians that I've met, just wanted the opportunity to grow their own food and decide what and what not to plant. NOT have some US, UK or Canadian agribusiness buy up all the land and set up modern day plantations growing cash crops for export, while turning former farmers into low paid workers. 

So, don't pretend that Haitians all of a sudden just couldn't make it on their own! The foreign aid has only become a necessity in our time because of the mess that foreign corporations have caused with their wealth extraction strategies. 

[August1991]

3 hours ago, Right To Left said:

Am I just supposed to accept your judgment that poverty is not caused by capitalism? Even though capitalists make no bones about the fact that even during average normal times, capitalism creates winners and losers.

When capitalists try to embellish their terminology with crap like "Creative Destruction," most of us can figure out that destruction....whether creative or not, will benefit some/but not others.

Capitalism? Capitalism is "this piece of paper means that I own that real thing over there".

Capitalism is symbolism. It is a deed. A share. A bond. It is gold. I have a way to claim something real.

I don't need to have the real thing; I merely to have the claim on the real thing.

====

Creative Destruction? It is part of life.  

[August1991]

4 hours ago, Right To Left said:

Most Haitians that I've met, just wanted the opportunity to grow their own food and decide what and what not to plant. NOT have some US, UK or Canadian agribusiness buy up all the land and set up modern day plantations growing cash crops for export, while turning former farmers into low paid workers. 

So, don't pretend that Haitians all of a sudden just couldn't make it on their own! The foreign aid has only become a necessity in our time because of the mess that foreign corporations have caused with their wealth extraction strategies. 

I have never been to Haiti - or the Dominican Republic, for that matter.

How such societies fall into such dysfunction? Dunno.

But the "do-gooder foreigners" have probably caused more problems in Haiti.

The "tourist foreigners" have probably helped the Dominican Republic.  

[Right To Left]

2 hours ago, August1991 said:

I have never been to Haiti - or the Dominican Republic, for that matter.

How such societies fall into such dysfunction? Dunno.

But the "do-gooder foreigners" have probably caused more problems in Haiti.

The "tourist foreigners" have probably helped the Dominican Republic.  

Most of the foreigners havenèt been dogooders. The corporate owners send their minions to places like Haiti....they don't want to go themselves. All they want to know about Haiti is what wealth is available for exploitation, and how do they get ahold of it!

[Right To Left]

2 hours ago, August1991 said:

Capitalism? Capitalism is "this piece of paper means that I own that real thing over there".

Capitalism is symbolism. It is a deed. A share. A bond. It is gold. I have a way to claim something real.

I don't need to have the real thing; I merely to have the claim on the real thing.

====

Creative Destruction? It is part of life.  

Capitalism is first and foremost an economic system, based on  the private ownership of the means of production, and their operation for profit. 

The problems with capitalism were best spelled out and described by Karl Marx in his ground-breaking work - Das Kapital. Marx proposed that the motivational force of capitalism is the exploitation of the labor force. Make workers work harder and longer for less money and watch the profits grow.

If the economy booms and there's a shortage of labor, that can be a problem. Workers will demand more money. Some employers will give in and fork out more money to pay their workers to keep producing. And that's when we get a look at the 'boom' and 'bust' cycles that plagued earlier capitalist systems especially in the last century.

What Marx was also noticing though, was that some capitalists were buying out competitors...even cooperating with major competitors if it didn't look likely that they would be able to establish an outright monopoly for their products. In that case, oligopoly is almost as good. And they would rather go this route and keep the money in the rich man's club, than give more of their ill-gotten gains to the dirty unwashed masses working in the factories, mines, fields etc..

All of this was why governments had to put limits on capitalism. Left to their own devices, every capitalist economy would end up with just a few major corporations owning and controlling all of the wealth and production in the country. 

In our time, we are finding more reasons to question capitalism, starting with the harmful impacts capitalisms addiction to growth is having on the environment. Even in an era where birth rates are flatlining and populations are declining in most countries...even in the so called 'undeveloped' world, industrial and commercial production is more than compensating for the declines in numbers of people. Fewer people are still polluting the air, water and land at ever greater levels. More products are being created and filling store shelves, but average consumers lobotomized by advertising, promotion and just plain hype, can't even give a good reason why they need a lot of the crap they're buying!

Anyway, now that I'm over 65 and retired, life moves at a slower pace than it did when I had to drive to work every day. First thing I noticed after I retired was that my wife and I could easily live on less than half of the income I thought was essential during my later working years.

But, why can't we have an economy that works at a slower, more relaxed pace for everybody? We could make sure everyone gets enough to eat, has proper clothes...but not excessive, and has a little left over to buy household essentials. 

So, I guess my ideal economic system would be social anarchism/ certainly not capitalism!

[August1991]

37 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

Most of the foreigners havenèt been dogooders. The corporate owners send their minions to places like Haiti....they don't want to go themselves. All they want to know about Haiti is what wealth is available for exploitation, and how do they get ahold of it!

Yet, ordinary people in the DR live far better than people in Haiti.

Same island.

[Right To Left]

Just now, August1991 said:

Yet, ordinary people in the DR live far better than people in Haiti.

Same island.

Unfair comparison considering that the US has a collection of occupation forces there, under the auspices of the UN, but occupiers nonetheless. 

I would also like to know how well is the average Dominican doing on the eastern side of the island! It may not be as bad as Haiti, but from what I have heard, it's not a lot better for most people.

[August1991]

44 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

Unfair comparison considering....

BS.

All these CIDA, UN do-gooders have not helped anyone in Haiti. You know it. I know it.

It has turned into a scam.

Edited August 3, 2023 by August1991

[Perspektiv]

On 8/3/2023 at 12:23 AM, Right To Left said:

it's not a lot better for most people

Haiti is almost in a state of lawlessness.

I think there is quite a degree of variants that make Haiti so desperately poor.

Political corruption, must be up there.

The recent earthquake should be proof. My mothers birth city of Jeremie was literally leveled for the most part. Many buildings in Port Au Prince, faced the same fate.

This delves into the levels of corruption. Many of the buildings were poorly built.

Millions sent to Haiti, and several facade neighborhoods were built to show progress, while the bulk of the destroyed buildings remain in ruin.

Duvalier used gangs to intimidate. Aristide. All fun and games until they turn on you.

To blame it on capitalism, is to blame high speed crashes on V8 engines. 

One of my aunts was crazy enough to buy an Escalade. She and her security detail were ambushed and she is lucky she was blind. 

They let her live.

Women often get raped killed and their cars set ablaze.

As a Haitian, I have experienced Haitis beauty, but it also has a very ugly side.

[Nationalist]

I've seen this song and dance several times before. Chile and Pinochet come to mind. The USA wound up owning most of the infrastructure, with Bell Canada in there like a dirty shirt. Does anyone trust Biden and Pixie-Dust to not do the same thing this time?

I know I certainly don't.

[August1991]

On 8/16/2023 at 11:13 AM, Nationalist said:

I've seen this song and dance several times before. Chile and Pinochet come to mind. The USA wound up owning most of the infrastructure, with Bell Canada in there like a dirty shirt. Does anyone trust Biden and Pixie-Dust to not do the same thing this time?

I know I certainly don't.

Do you blame the US for Haiti?

I have never been to Haiti but I have spoken to a few Haitians. IMHO, Haiti is a disaster of its own making.

[Perspektiv]

16 hours ago, August1991 said:

IMHO, Haiti is a disaster of its own making.

You're partially correct.

However, they didn't stand a chance from the moment they declared their independence from France.

Being taxed heavily for that independence, would cripple any economy.

However, couple this with incredibly corrupt politicians, and you have the recipe to go from being a jewel, to the poorest country in our part of the globe.

[August1991]

On 9/2/2023 at 2:32 PM, Perspektiv said:

You're partially correct.

However, they didn't stand a chance from the moment they declared their independence from France.

Being taxed heavily for that independence, would cripple any economy.

However, couple this with incredibly corrupt politicians, and you have the recipe to go from being a jewel, to the poorest country in our part of the globe.

Disagree. Strongly. In the 1950s, Malaya (Singapore) and Haiti were largely the same. Poor.

Singapore is now very rich.

IMV, people in Haiti could be as rich as people in Singapore.

[Perspektiv]

At this point, its bordering on anarchy.

They are seeing if they can get soldiers from Kenya. I just don't see how this doesn't simply increase bloodshed. 

[WestCanMan]

23 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

At this point, its bordering on anarchy.

They are seeing if they can get soldiers from Kenya. I just don't see how this doesn't simply increase bloodshed. 

They should hit India up for some soldiers. India has supplied the most UN Peacekeepers of any country.

IIRC Canada is second, but the optics of white soldiers doing what needs to be done over there are not good. Ten years from now all the racists in this country would be hating on our peacekeepers. 

[Perspektiv]

7 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

They should hit India up for some soldiers. India has supplied the most UN Peacekeepers of any country.

This would be an insanely deadly mission.

Sending canadian kids to their slaughter would not sit well with the population. We don't have an appetite for massive losses of personnel.

I just don't see how this doesn't end in a full blow war and bloodbath.

Sure we would be better armed, but many gang members have makeshift bulletproof vehicles, have access to military grade weapons and know the densely populated areas like the back of their hands.

I just don't see how you could prevent high casualty counts by fighting with boots on the ground or by fighting by air, with the massive amount of collateral damage.

 

[Nationalist]

On 3/11/2023 at 9:06 PM, Perspektiv said:

Haiti is still mired in paying off forced debts from French banks when they fought for their independence (taking a horrible deal preventing an invasion), they also admitted to forcing the coup that ousted ex president Jean Bertrand Aristide when he demanded reparations. 

France technically still owns Haiti, when you consider the billions of dollars that it extorted out of it, after pillaging the country out of so many of its resources.

Haiti is in a position where it has had its legs cut off, and is trying to learn how to stand, forget walking on its own against impossible odds.

If the French don't care, why should we?

[Perspektiv]

5 hours ago, Nationalist said:

If the French don't care, why should we?

If it fits a woke agenda, I could see people caring, but this really won't. 

Unless of course, a white colonizing country invaded. Then the internet would explode.

Haiti is too far gone to be fixed.

We are talking generations of degradation.

The corruption levels there are so bad, any influx of cash would never make it to those who need it. 

I wouldn't bring my wife there if I was paid a billion dollars. Enough said. 

My sibling got offended at Trump calling Haiti a s***hole. She was triggered by it.

I told her that it was. She rejected it.

"Would you bring your kids there?"

Of course not. 

"Because its a s***hole."

Then I poked fun of her laughing, knowing the truth is what made it funny.

The people there aren't horrible, but you can't sugar coat the conditions there politically, regarding crime and gang warfare that have reached levels never seen before in that country.

[Nationalist]

3 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

If it fits a woke agenda, I could see people caring, but this really won't. 

Unless of course, a white colonizing country invaded. Then the internet would explode.

Haiti is too far gone to be fixed.

We are talking generations of degradation.

The corruption levels there are so bad, any influx of cash would never make it to those who need it. 

I wouldn't bring my wife there if I was paid a billion dollars. Enough said. 

My sibling got offended at Trump calling Haiti a s***hole. She was triggered by it.

I told her that it was. She rejected it.

"Would you bring your kids there?"

Of course not. 

"Because its a s***hole."

Then I poked fun of her laughing, knowing the truth is what made it funny.

The people there aren't horrible, but you can't sugar coat the conditions there politically, regarding crime and gang warfare that have reached levels never seen before in that country.

I do worry about the Dominican...

[Perspektiv]

10 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I do worry about the Dominican...

They would bomb the living daylights of anyone trying to cross their border. 

Their military is powerful enough to deal a devastating blow to anyone trying them.