Canada & NATO

[suds]

On 12/24/2022 at 12:47 PM, Aristides said:

We are deciding our own way and that is to be united with the other liberal democracies in opposing people who don't believe in democracy or human rights. 

That's about as simple as it gets. If I've learned one thing from life it's don't be a fence-sitter. If you don't take a side, then don't expect anyone to stand up for YOU.

[Army Guy]

3 hours ago, Contrarian said:

1. I think this war will make countries arm themselves even more, including Canada: 
https://www.cp24.com/news/canadian-army-eyeing-new-weapons-in-response-to-lessons-learned-from-ukraine-war-1.6211650

Also is good the federal government will most likely turn conservative, as conservatives tend to focus more on the military.

With a rising China, this is very important. Japan is also to start their military return with an advanced cyber warfare. If Japan gets free air to do what they want, they will slow down China. I understand the Americans are considering allowing such scenario from what I have been reading. 

2. Yah, well, why invest so much in a system, when our south of the border neighbour ensures protection. We are benefiting from a geographic point of view. 

3. The return of the conservatives might improve this image. 

4. America is strong therefore NATO is strong is my view. Is the view of some Europeans the US does not want a strong Germany or a EU army type of thing due to internal rivalries. It makes sense. The US invested so much to clean up Europe from the Soviets to just hand it over to Berlin and Paris? This big difference between the US and rest of the allies might be self made. I know Trump has a different opinion. 

5. I celebrate NATO (soldiers, diplomats, official and unofficial agents, etc) for the change that was brought to the lands that I grew up in. Is my personal BIAS. When NATO forces officially came in, old people were in the streets crying after what the Soviets did in those areas.

Overall is great we can change the system here when we notice flaws (with the military services, weapons, HR issues, scandals).

In Russia, China people don't have an option: 

1.... I hope your right, but history has shown that it is highly unlikely, The investments we are seeing right now are becasue there is no other choice ie new fighters, new frigates, even liberals can see that flying in a 40 year old plane in a high intensity war is suicidal... The news article you quote from , these weapons' systems were talked about dozens of years ago,  including when the CDS was commander of the army.  There cost is unbelievably low to purchase, the question should be asked why is it taking so long to purchase them. THERE IS NO WILL to buy them...

I have been a conservative my whole life, they talk a good game when it comes to the military, but here in Canada even the conservatives have also damaged our military, through cuts, or kicking purchases down the road, and i'm sure if you laid all of their deeds on a table it would be pretty even on both sides good or bad. That being said Liberal government is more likely to use the military to deploy, regardless of the situation where Conservatives like to study it and talk about it more.

According to NATO, 5 eyes, China is the number one global threat, Japan is really starting to build it's military machine but also it's military industry. But i think they Japanese people are starting to realize who the threat is and what needs to counter it.  much like South Korea and i'm sure both of them have a free hand now.

2.... Good question, if one wants a say in how or what to protect in our nation it needs to take the lead in those areas, for instance our northern missile detection grid, was last updated in the 80's, and today is obsolete against modern weapons, we can detect the basic systems but have nothing to shoot any missiles down. We passed on BMD becasue it was not popular with the people at the time.. There is only so many missiles the US can intercept, and when it comes time to choose what city to save who do you think those cities are going to be...Depending on someone else for your protection is not a smart strategy we are not a smart people when it comes to our military..

4. The US is strong, but it has more responsibilities than NATO, and it has also taken some peace bonds and cut back on forces. Hence why the US is been probing everyone to spend more on defense and not rely on the US war machine so much. very few nations are doing that even with Ukraine going on, Poland , Sweden, Finland already know what we have not learned yet, take a look at Sweden and Finland's internal infra structure, it is prepared for a nuclear war, bunkers for most of it's people shit even got bunkers for hockey rinks...

If NATO has to get involved in Ukraine, it is going to show it's true colors just like Russia did, not with quality of troops but lack of equipment... During Operation Medusa in Afghanistan, Canada's first major battle there, the battle group plus expended all ammo in just 2 days, within 4 days every piece of ammo we had in Canada was also consumed...our military had to make an emergency purchase off US forces...To put that into perspective, thats all the training ammo, the war reserve ammo, plus all the ammo stock piled in Afghanistan expended in 4 days...imagine you being told to conserve ammo becasue there might not be any more the following day... This is during a major combat offensive.  

5.... Thats what frustrates me so much, we do have an option, and the people choose to ignore it. if you pretend it is not there then you don't have to take any action... mean while history repeats itself over and over good men and women will pay for this unpreparedness with their life's like we have done in WWI, WWII, Korea.

Becasue it is cheaper to bury our children, than to give them the tools to carry out what we tell them to do. How selfish is that? It really tells you the character of Canadians. We have many brave Canadians that step up and join for many reasons, while others will sit back and laugh at them becasue that is what they choose to do...or make jokes about the state our military was in, never once thinking about doing something about it. 

Funny i never once laughed at any Canadian that was in need when we deployed to help them in the Winnipeg floods, or ice storm, or countless forest fires. It is hard to serve your country when it pisses all over you, only to have them become your best friend in a crises. 

I was once the most patriotic soldier known in the land, i lived the dream of being of being a soldier in the country's best Infantry Regiment, Royal Canadian Regiment,  i took great pride in my uniform, I flew the Canadian flag in my front yard flag would come down at sun set and raise at sun rise. Not any more, my flag pole sits unused for years now, i have given my uniform away to good will, my medals and awards sit in some dusty box in the basement.  

 

[August1991]

On 12/24/2022 at 11:38 AM, Army Guy said:

I don't want to sound rude, but most Canadians don't give a rats a$$ about our military, or it's soldiers, Those Canadians that wear the uniform, do it initially to serve their nation, to be part of some much larger organization, to give something back to a nation that has everything anyone could ask for.

 

...

1. You may be surprised. We Canadians have a remarkable understanding of our military.

2. Most soldiers enlist now because they're bored.

Edited January 3, 2023 by August1991

[August1991]

I am astonished by the current results of this survey.

We Canadians should be part of NATO. Why?

=====

Since August 1991, the world has changed. The US - we in the West - won the Cold War.

 

 

[I am Groot]

9 minutes ago, August1991 said:

I am astonished by the current results of this survey.

We Canadians should be part of NATO. Why?

=====

Since August 1991, the world has changed. The US - we in the West - won the Cold War.

Because we understand the tradeoff between guns and butter.

[Aristides]

23 minutes ago, August1991 said:

I am astonished by the current results of this survey.

We Canadians should be part of NATO. Why?

=====

Since August 1991, the world has changed. The US - we in the West - won the Cold War.

 

 

Because we understand that countries like Russia, Iran, China and North Korea aren't going to stick up for our freedoms.

[Army Guy]

2 hours ago, August1991 said:

...

1. You may be surprised. We Canadians have a remarkable understanding of our military.

2. Most soldiers enlist now because they're bored.

1....Sure they do, thats why our military is in the state it is now, that is why young men and women risk their life's in equipment that is older than most 3 rd world countries. Or maybe they just don't care , they have enough on their plates right now.

Thats why our vets are treated so poorly, thats why the PM told them they were asking for more than he could give at the time, thats why Canadians stood up and said enough is enough we can do better. The average Canadian knows very little about the military, or what they do for Canada, on the average day, or what they are doing around the world. If they did know it would sicken them. 

2.... Bored ! perhaps some of them do, perhaps it is lack of education, or the lack of time to complete education, or wanted a good steady job, or wanted an adventure, or do cool stuff, but today a lot of soldiers are getting out becasue they are bored, due to lack of training opportunities, or the new direction DND is heading... 

 

[August1991]

19 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

1....Sure they do, thats why our military is in the state it is now, that is why young men and women risk their life....

2.... Bored ! perhaps some of them do, perhaps it is lack of education, or the lack of time to complete education, or wanted a good steady job, or wanted an adventure, or do cool stuff... 

 

1. Our military is like a fire brigade. No one thinks about it until a fire happens. Do Canadians know about Dieppe? How about Juno? Mulroney wisely said that we earned our place at the table.

2. Too many young men are bored. Jordan Petersonm etc 

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/aug/26/men-going-their-own-way-the-toxic-male-separatist-movement-that-is-now-mainstream

[Army Guy]

15 hours ago, August1991 said:

1. Our military is like a fire brigade. No one thinks about it until a fire happens. Do Canadians know about Dieppe? How about Juno? Mulroney wisely said that we earned our place at the table.

2. Too many young men are bored. Jordan Petersonm etc 

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/aug/26/men-going-their-own-way-the-toxic-male-separatist-movement-that-is-now-mainstream

Your fire Brigade line of thought has not worked in WWI, WWII, Korea, Afghanistan, or any conflict really, and if as you claim Canadians knew about our military historically then they would know just how unprepared we were at those times, and how we rushed young men into battle with out any real training or modern equipment, and the cost to all that was lives, all of them were preventable... See how many men were regular forces troops before these wars, see how much equipment they had, none of that data supports the fire brigade thinking.... hence the saying it is cheaper to bury our sons and daughters than to equip them with modern equipment that saves lives. And with all that sacrifice we have learned very little from it as we continue in those steps. today it takes weeks to build a IFV and tank, months to build a modern aircraft, years to build ships...todays conflicts are come as you are, if your not ready, then you will perish...it is really not that complicated... spend the money and save lives, or cheap out and bury our kids...

We has a nation have never been at the table, with all our sacrifices do we have a permanent seat on the UN, are we equal members in NATO, NORAD, 5 EYES, and the countless other defensive agreements we have signed on to. No we have not. Do you think other nations within these groups see us as an equal...No they do not, they see us as all talk no action, and when we do take action , we put so many caveats on the use of our troops it makes them almost non players. We as a Nation are always boasting we are fighting way above our weight... thats not kudos for the government it is the opposite, Canadians and the government have starved our military, and our troops made lemonade out of a bucket of shi#,  it is a compliment to the troops nobody else, as they have manage to look good with all the shit equipment and funding we gave them...Still think we deserve a seat at the table? 

A nation can just sit down half way through the race and say we have earned our spot at the finish line it does not work like that... Canada is one of the nations that has cashed in on it's war bonds hard since after WWII ended, and has reduced it's military forces far below what we agreed to on signing all of our our defensive alliances, and despite the other nations reminding us of all that , Canada has gave them the finger each time... most recent example of that was a few years back when President Trump had all nations resign the NATO agreement promising to spend 2 % or more of GDP on defense, Justin made a big deal out of signing this pact then a few days later, in front of the media told the world he "Canada " had no intention of keeping that agreement....He has also made a big splash in the media about "we are Back" to the UN assembly, we were going to bring our participation in UN peace keeping mission back to the glory days, and currently we have less than 30 people on any number of UN missions... You still think we have earn a seat at the table...

2... Not even sure how this particular men's movement  has anything to do with Men  joining the military today, the crises DND is having is "lack" of men and women joining. If your case was true there would be a massive line up of bored men wanting to join, or maybe this group is not as large as you think it is.

To go even further ,One could also ask this, the military is in the middle of a culture change do you think these men ( your group of MGTOW men) are the men they are looking for to fill the ranks...This group does not even fit into yester years group the military was looking for.  

 

[Army Guy]

Here is another interview by the CDS, notice the concern in his voice, notice that some of the systems we don't have are small in nature and have a small price like anti tank wins in the range of 10 to 20 grand per copy, same for Anti air wpns like manpads, or Shored, or medium range anti air systems like IRIS, or Patriot. we have NONE of those, No tracked IFV , just light armoured wheeled vehs, and even lighter M-113, our Wheel logistic fleet is in a mess with a really good portion rusty out, or heavy restrictions put on their use, no SPA arty vehs, our tanks only 40 are fitted for war, the other 42 are training tanks, our Griffons are old, while our chinooks are modern...No MLRS, or HIMARS, No attack helos, no dedicated ground support aircraft, No cruise missiles, a whole lot of NO's, 

This is not his first message about this, this is him screaming to government begging then to do something, anything.... and while most Canadians this will scream will go over their heads, But it is going to be your children and your grand children that will be paying the price for this over sight. be it in money or blood. 

Basically it comes down to grunts on the ground ( x 3 under manned infantry regiments) with a small selection of small arms, some out dated tanks and arty no longer being produced, for a entire nations military and somehow that is outstanding to Canadians .

He mentioned only 32 M777 for 3 brigades of troops, see how many the other NATO nations have for Arty, it will make you say WTF...

 

 

[August1991]

On 1/3/2023 at 2:40 PM, Army Guy said:

Your fire Brigade line of thought has not worked in WWI, WWII, Korea, Afghanistan, or any conflict really....

''''

We has a nation have never been at the table....

 

ArmyGuy,

I disagree.

1. We have different languages and different religions. Yet, Canada is a civilised country: We get along.

2. When asked to do something, most Canadians genuflect/politely ask why. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by August1991

[Army Guy]

14 hours ago, August1991 said:

ArmyGuy,

I disagree.

1. We have different languages and different religions. Yet, Canada is a civilised country: We get along.

2. When asked to do something, most Canadians genuflect/politely ask why. 

 

Not sure what you which points you disagree with, 

1... We has a country have never been so divided as we are now, in dozens of categories, including languages, religion, politics, generations, old and young, east and west, ethic back grounds, vaccinated or non vaccinated, climate change, the list just goes on... we are in a period of time where the entire country is declared systemically racist how is that civilized, or telling we get along. Sorry i just don't see it. 

2... You mean like when justin signed the new NATO agreement, which stated he would agree to spend 2 % on the military, knowing before hand why this new agreement was being drawn up... only a couple days later told the world he had no intention of spending any where near 2 %, He did find loop holes in the agreement and used them to boost our numbers...thats not asking why, but going on the international stage and lying...

same thing he did at the UN in regards to UN peace keeping missions, WERE BACK speech all lies. Carbon tax all lies, gun control lies, convoy all lies, the list is huge and Canadians shrug it all off like it was normal behavior... 

[Army Guy]

The media is full of these stories in the last decade or so, Canadians refuse to read them, or believe in them... it would seem money is more import to us than saving Canadian lives...or protecting our current quality of life. 

Andrew Richter: It's time for Canada to start pulling its own weight (msn.com)

[Army Guy]

Around and around we go where this program stops no one will know....I will give the liberals credit, they have backtracked on an important issue, and that takes leadership, (Yes i gave them credit, and yes i feel dirty) it has only taken almost 10 years but in the end they stood and where counted. Now i'm not sure how this plays with the rumored election this spring, and if the contracts stick...

The contract is a long ass one with the last aircraft not to be delivered until 2034...not the most optimal but it is a contract unless someone cancels it...

[Army Guy]

Liberal Government is buying a medium range air defense platform off the us for Ukraine...wait a minute here, just a while back the CDS told our media that Canada is in need of a complete air defense capability, SHORAD, Medium and long range systems, plus a manpad and it would take years to buy.

And right out of the Blue we are buying one for Ukraine...does anyone else see something wrong with that...

Canada to purchase U.S. missile defence system for Ukraine (msn.com)