Canada leads the world

[PocketRocket]

Just a few seconds ago, on CBC Radio One no less, I heard that Montreal is "A haven for counterfeit DVD manufacturers", and is costing the movie industry over $3billion/year.

Apparently the laws in Canada do not restrict people from bringing cameras or camcorders in to movie theaters, and recording whatever they want there.

Interesting.

So yet again, Canada is a "haven", but this time for copyright pirates.

Not a particularly pretty picture.

Hollywood is hopping mad.

[Argus]

Just a few seconds ago, on CBC Radio One no less, I heard that Montreal is "A haven for counterfeit DVD manufacturers", and is costing the movie industry over $3billion/year.

Apparently the laws in Canada do not restrict people from bringing cameras or camcorders in to movie theaters, and recording whatever they want there.

Interesting.

So yet again, Canada is a "haven", but this time for copyright pirates.

Not a particularly pretty picture.

Hollywood is hopping mad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, the unfortunate fact is while we spend $2 billion on a ridiculous and ineffective gun registry, the RCMP are so starved for funds they rarely even bother to investigate fraud and counterfeit. Not that it's entirely due to their lack of funds. But they must allocate them where they'll do the most good, and since bleeding heart judges have all-but refused to punish fraud or counterfeiting the RCMP simply don't waste their precious resources.

[Leafless]

PocketRocket

You wrote-" I heard that Montreal is a haven for couterfeit DVD manufacturers" and also copyright pirates.

Yes and also Montreal is king of private health care clinics and Quebec current leaders in federal invetigative commissions i.e. the Gomery inquiry.

Looks like Quebec wants to be leaders in in destroying the 'goodness of Canada label' and turning it into a corrupt money making entity that stops for no one.

[Riverwind]

"A haven for counterfeit DVD manufacturers", and is costing the movie industry over $3billion/year.

Nothing pisses me off more than industry estimates of losses due to counterfeiting. These estimates always assume that every counterfeit represents a lost sale at full price. The fact is that most people do not pay full price for a legit DVD or the people buying counterfeits would simply go without if they could not get a cheap conterfeit. This means the real 'losses' are much less than estimated.

[Yodeler]

The fact is that most people do not pay full price ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Proof positive that Theloniusfleabag's "always haggle" advice is working.

[sharkman]

Out here on the west coast, drug dealers, car stealers and such are are given suspended sentences or probation with no actual time being served. Recently some twit who stole a car ran a stop sign and hit somebody, killing his passenger. His sentence? probation for manslaughter.

With those kind of sentences, what do you think the going rate is for counterfeiting? And what, pray tell, kind of deterrent do you think nonexistent sentences are for counterfeiting? You can have a pretty good income in Canada as a criminal with only minor brushes with the law.

[tml12]

Just a few seconds ago, on CBC Radio One no less, I heard that Montreal is "A haven for counterfeit DVD manufacturers", and is costing the movie industry over $3billion/year.

Apparently the laws in Canada do not restrict people from bringing cameras or camcorders in to movie theaters, and recording whatever they want there.

Interesting.

So yet again, Canada is a "haven", but this time for copyright pirates.

Not a particularly pretty picture.

Hollywood is hopping mad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Montreal is the counterfeit capital of Canada.

Not just DVDs here we are talking about fake Interac cards and credit cards, etc.

[Cameron]

I was talking with a veteran police officer here in Halifax, and the one question I asked him about crime was what is needed. He told me the criminal justice system is the main problem, they can arrest all they want, but the system is just to lenient...

Time for us to toughen up...

[cybercoma]

Just a few seconds ago, on CBC Radio One no less, I heard that Montreal is "A haven for counterfeit DVD manufacturers", and is costing the movie industry over $3billion/year.

Apparently the laws in Canada do not restrict people from bringing cameras or camcorders in to movie theaters, and recording whatever they want there.

Interesting.

So yet again, Canada is a "haven", but this time for copyright pirates.

Not a particularly pretty picture.

Hollywood is hopping mad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh "WaaAAAaahHH!' Billionaires crying me a river again.

[August1991]

"A haven for counterfeit DVD manufacturers", and is costing the movie industry over $3billion/year.

Nothing pisses me off more than industry estimates of losses due to counterfeiting. These estimates always assume that every counterfeit represents a lost sale at full price. The fact is that most people do not pay full price for a legit DVD or the people buying counterfeits would simply go without if they could not get a cheap conterfeit. This means the real 'losses' are much less than estimated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sparhawk, you're wrong.

You wrote-" I heard that Montreal is a haven for couterfeit DVD manufacturers" and also copyright pirates.

Gimme a break. The report I heard was that a market north of Toronto is the place to buy.

Huh?

Azureus

[cybercoma]

Does anyone seriously care that some billionaire crybaby director isn't going to be able to buy a third Maserati?

[Riverwind]

This means the real 'losses' are much less than estimated.

Sparhawk, you're wrong.

Care to elaborate?

[Argus]

Does anyone seriously care that some billionaire crybaby director isn't going to be able to buy a third Maserati?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

cybercoma, this is not merely about counterfeit DVDs. Counterfeit goods have been flooding this country. We're talking about counterfeit batteries (which tend to explode btw), counterfeit golf clubs, counterfeit clothing lines (which fall apart), counterfeit paint (with lead in it) counterfeit drugs (you can guess how effective they are), etc. etc. etc. More to the point, besides endangering the public, besides costing profits to major corporations, they are part of a culture of lawlessness which, in tandem with things like credit card forgery, debit card fraud, mortgage fraud, identify theft, and immigration and telemarketing fraud, are growing worse every year with nothing in the way to stop them. All of these things are illegal, of course, but the courts have refused to punish fraud, and so the police rarely bother to even investigate.

[August1991]

Does anyone seriously care that some billionaire crybaby director isn't going to be able to buy a third Maserati?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because someone happens to have three Maseratis, does that give you the right to go and steal one of them?

[cybercoma]

Does anyone seriously care that some billionaire crybaby director isn't going to be able to buy a third Maserati?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

cybercoma, this is not merely about counterfeit DVDs. Counterfeit goods have been flooding this country. We're talking about counterfeit batteries (which tend to explode btw), counterfeit golf clubs, counterfeit clothing lines (which fall apart), counterfeit paint (with lead in it) counterfeit drugs (you can guess how effective they are), etc. etc. etc. More to the point, besides endangering the public, besides costing profits to major corporations, they are part of a culture of lawlessness which, in tandem with things like credit card forgery, debit card fraud, mortgage fraud, identify theft, and immigration and telemarketing fraud, are growing worse every year with nothing in the way to stop them. All of these things are illegal, of course, but the courts have refused to punish fraud, and so the police rarely bother to even investigate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And I would agree that counterfeit batteries (which explode), paint (with lead in it) and drugs are an issue worth looking at because of public safety.

Counterfeit music and DVDs is an excersize in futility, not worth the tax dollars spent on fighting it. I'm sick of multimillionaires crying about middle-class and poor people taking food off their table.

I guess I'm a hypocrite. One is ok to me and the others aren't.

[cybercoma]

Does anyone seriously care that some billionaire crybaby director isn't going to be able to buy a third Maserati?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because someone happens to have three Maseratis, does that give you the right to go and steal one of them?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The point is that the assertion of "people who buy counterfeit weren't going to buy the original anyway," stands. How much money are they really losing?

When someone is scraping by to make ends-meet and they download music or movies, it makes me sick when these filthy rich bastards are crying that they're not making enough money.

People are obviously still going to the movies, buying CDs and buying DVDs, or they wouldn't be making the profits they're making.

[Argus]

Does anyone seriously care that some billionaire crybaby director isn't going to be able to buy a third Maserati?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

cybercoma, this is not merely about counterfeit DVDs. Counterfeit goods have been flooding this country. We're talking about counterfeit batteries (which tend to explode btw), counterfeit golf clubs, counterfeit clothing lines (which fall apart), counterfeit paint (with lead in it) counterfeit drugs (you can guess how effective they are), etc. etc. etc. More to the point, besides endangering the public, besides costing profits to major corporations, they are part of a culture of lawlessness which, in tandem with things like credit card forgery, debit card fraud, mortgage fraud, identify theft, and immigration and telemarketing fraud, are growing worse every year with nothing in the way to stop them. All of these things are illegal, of course, but the courts have refused to punish fraud, and so the police rarely bother to even investigate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lawyer fraud. How could I forget lawyer fraud? Geeze

Crooked lawyers rarely prosecuted

[August1991]

This means the real 'losses' are much less than estimated.

Sparhawk, you're wrong.

Care to elaborate?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Imagine that someone is going around pretending to be Sparhawk - using your credit cards, taking your pay cheques. And now imagine that I say, "Sparhawk is exaggerating the losses."

If someone else used your credit cards, you would probably cancel the cards. And if your employer gave your paycheque to someone else, you would probably quit your job. It is hard if not impossible to put a value on those losses.

[cybercoma]

Lawyer fraud. How could I forget lawyer fraud? Geeze

Crooked lawyers rarely prosecuted

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't forget government fraud, speaking of Montreal and Quebec.

[August1991]

Does anyone seriously care that some billionaire crybaby director isn't going to be able to buy a third Maserati?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because someone happens to have three Maseratis, does that give you the right to go and steal one of them?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The point is that the assertion of "people who buy counterfeit weren't going to buy the original anyway," stands. How much money are they really losing?

When someone is scraping by to make ends-meet and they download music or movies, it makes me sick when these filthy rich bastards are crying that they're not making enough money.

People are obviously still going to the movies, buying CDs and buying DVDs, or they wouldn't be making the profits they're making.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cybercoma, you are still justifying theft by saying that it's OK to steal from rich people.

And it's a truly bizarre claim to say "I wouldn't buy a Maserati for $300,000 but I'll take one if it's free - and hey, the owner is not losing anything because I wouldn't have bought it anyway."

Worse, like a child, you are not looking further into the consequences of the theft. If anyone could steal a car at anytime, I would not be surprised if car manufacturing soon stopped because no one would ever buy a car. IOW, there soon would be no cars to steal.

[Riverwind]

]Imagine that someone is going around pretending to be Sparhawk - using your credit cards, taking your pay cheques.

There are two separate issues that depend on the product involved. For physical products, like designer clothing, then there are tangible losses due to the damage to the brand caused by poor quality knock offs that people believe to be the real thing. These losses are potentially huge and cannot really have a dollar figure assigned to them. I agree that the gov't need to crack down hard on these kinds of counterfeits.

However, there is no brand damage caused by counterfeits of digital products like CDs or DVDs because the copies are exact copies of the original. In fact, the market for counterfeits (i.e. file swapping on the internet) can actually increase sales of the real product. Therefore, losses calculated by multiplying the number of counterfeit DVDs by the full retail price of the DVD are pure fiction and should not be taken seriously.

[PocketRocket]

LEAFLESS......

Looks like Quebec wants to be leaders in in destroying the 'goodness of Canada label' and turning it into a corrupt money making entity that stops for no one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Apparently, it's Canadian law which permits this, not just Quebec law.

Although, as stated, Montreal seems to be where most of the production is happening, I don't know that I would agree that this is part of a Quebec conspiracy.

SPARHAWK....

"A haven for counterfeit DVD manufacturers", and is costing the movie industry over $3billion/year.

Nothing pisses me off more than industry estimates of losses due to counterfeiting. These estimates always assume that every counterfeit represents a lost sale at full price. The fact is that most people do not pay full price for a legit DVD or the people buying counterfeits would simply go without if they could not get a cheap conterfeit. This means the real 'losses' are much less than estimated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, I have to agree with this. If you want a glaring example, look at the sattelite industry.

There was a case a year or so ago in the USA where Dishnetwork sued a guy in Florida about $250K for 1 year of sattelite theft.

That works out to about $685.00/day.

Basically, he was being charged for EVERY channel (which he was getting), plus EVERY pay-per-view movie (which he did have access to, but hey, you can only watch one movie at a time, while there are actually about 40 movies playing simultaneously).

Seems to me that this was hardly a simple redress of wrongs. More a case of setting an example.

I believe the same goes on with any industry when they are claiming loss of revenue.

SHARKMAN......

With those kind of sentences, what do you think the going rate is for counterfeiting?  And what, pray tell, kind of deterrent do you think nonexistent sentences are for counterfeiting?  You can have a pretty good income in Canada as a criminal with only minor brushes with the law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree that some sentences should be FAR more severe, especially those involving harm to another person.

In the case of DVD-duplication/sattelite theft etc, wherein no one is visibly harmed, I don't mind seeing us err on the side of caution.

If a kid records a copy of a CD for his best friend, should he be subject to the full weight of copyright laws???

I don't believe so.

But hey, that's just my 2c, or rather 30c in the case of the cost of a blank writable DVD.

CYBERCOMA......

Oh "WaaAAAaahHH!'  Billionaires crying me a river again. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I find that I agree with this sentiment. But, unfortunately, it seems the more ya got, the more ya want.....

AUGUST1991......

Gimme a break.  The report I heard was that a market north of Toronto is the place to buy.

Huh?

Azureus

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They spoke of production, not sales. I have no idea where the market you speak of is located.

As for AZUREUS, it's a great little facility, ain't it???

CYBERCOMA.....

Does anyone seriously care that some billionaire crybaby director isn't going to be able to buy a third Maserati?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, but it breaks my heart that he may not be able to get that shiny new HUMMER

[August1991]

]Imagine that someone is going around pretending to be Sparhawk - using your credit cards, taking your pay cheques.

There are two separate issues that depend on the product involved. For physical products, like designer clothing, then there are tangible losses due to the damage to the brand caused by poor quality knock offs that people believe to be the real thing. These losses are potentially huge and cannot really have a dollar figure assigned to them. I agree that the gov't need to crack down hard on these kinds of counterfeits.

However, there is no brand damage caused by counterfeits of digital products like CDs or DVDs because the copies are exact copies of the original. In fact, the market for counterfeits (i.e. file swapping on the internet) can actually increase sales of the real product. Therefore, losses calculated by multiplying the number of counterfeit DVDs by the full retail price of the DVD are pure fiction and should not be taken seriously.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sparhawk, do you mean to say that there is a difference between physical property and intellectual property, or between a good and a service?

We spend billions of dollars on education in Canada. Education is a service and it leads to human capital, or intellectual property. How would you feel if someone could use your diploma and your CV to get a job? Would that be any different from using your car?

In truth however, I am uncomfortable with this moral argument (although I am astonished to see normally moralistic posters rationalizing theft).

There is a different, more effective argument. If anyone could duplicate a university diploma and pretend to be a university graduate, what would happen? Few people would go to university. (What would be the point?) And then where would be?

[Riverwind]

There is a different, more effective argument.  If anyone could duplicate a university diploma and pretend to be a university graduate, what would happen?

Intellectual property laws have gone crazy and need to radically reformed. On one hand you have the movie and music companies attempting stiffle extremely important technological innovations because it does not fit in with their business model (this is the reason why I don't care that much about copied CDs and DVDs - I would have more sympathy if they actually tried to work with the new technology instead of using the courts to outlaw it).

It is worth noting that the recording industry tried to kill radio in the 20s because they were afraid that giving music out for free over the airwaves would destroy their business.

[sharkman]

It seems there are a lot of illegal downloaders on this forum. How about this angle. a group of people who eat sleep and drink music their whole lives form a band. Full of hope, they practice until their fingers bleed and start getting gigs at clubs. They soon find out that the music biz is tough since some of these clubs rip them off and they are barely feeding themselves, but they love what they do. Four years of hard work go by, and they get 'discovered' by some big music exec who promises them the world and wants them to sign a contract right now, with a 50,000 advance. In short, they get ripped off again since the contract says the company gets all rights to their music, and bills them for all the studio time, marketing, and various other items.

2 more years and they work off that contract and sign with a new label with a lawyer this time. But their music doesn't sell very well and they find out they've spent the better part of a decade getting known only to be ripped off by the public who download their music 10 times more than they buy it.

When you go to download copyrighted material, you're making sure that the artist doesn't get paid for his work. They usually have very short careers and then they're a has been. Most of them are lucky if they can string 3 successful cds together. But who cares, right? As long as you get the music for free, wow, you saved 15 or 20 bucks!

Same for dvds. For every movie that makes a profit there are 5 that don't. Yah, there are rich fat cats at the top of the heap, but there are at the top of every industry. Does that make it right to steal? Rationalizing poor decisions don't change the fact that they are wrong.