On the benefits of authoritarianism

[myata]

A top tennis player Peng Shuai (35) went missing in China after accusing top Communist party official (75) of sexual harassment.

Social media accounts were closed and her name disappeared from the media.

China has a great record (according to the country's official media) in controlling the pandemic, measures included total shutdowns of cities and regions, massive isolated hospitals and such.

Just a reminder to admirers and advocates of strong hand and quick solutions: it always begins with public good, while ignoring and silencing critical questions. From there, a straight path to authoritarianism.

[DonStyles]

People usually support the strong hand until it catches them personally.

[Queenmandy85]

1 hour ago, DonStyles said:

People usually support the strong hand until it catches them personally.

That is so true. Yet, we are being faced with having to make painful sacrifices for the benefit of future generations. The lesson from the Covid 19 experience is that while most people will do the right thing to help others, there is a sufficient segment of the population that will fail to act in a manner that will save other peoples lives. This will make it necessary to eliminate some of the freedoms we enjoy today if we are to mitigate the worst effects of climate change.  The alternative will be the worst mass extinction since the permian.

The sacrifices required are not short term. They will have to be permanent. There is always going to be some con-man that will tell people it is just a hoax, but the reality is that the is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. 

 

[Winston]

9 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Yet, we are being faced with having to make painful sacrifices for the benefit of future generations.

What sacrifice(s) is society making for the the specific benefit of future generations?  

[Queenmandy85]

6 hours ago, Winston said:

What sacrifice(s) is society making for the the specific benefit of future generations?  

A fraction of what is needed. There needs to be a global effort to transition away from fossil fuels to nuclear power and solar power. We need to reduce the global population over the next few centuries.

 

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

A fraction of what is needed. There needs to be a global effort to transition away from fossil fuels to nuclear power and solar power. We need to reduce the global population over the next few centuries.

 

The boomer and later generation has been taught, via advertising, that they're perfect already.  They rejected the concept of the draft, religion and any sense of obligation in favour of consumer indulgence.  

How exactly they could be expected to sacrifice anything in the climate is impossible to foresee.

[Queenmandy85]

I am pessimistic. To solve this problem, we need to have everyone reducing consumption, reducing the population and reducing the use of petroleum and coal for the generation of energy. This effort needs to continue permanently, without interruption. I don't see that happening. Eventually, we'll get a con man who will say it is all a commie hoax and all the sacrifices will be for nothing. Our future generation will be condemned to a living hell until extinction, and it will be from no fault of their own. 

On the bright side. the earth will continue and hopefully, some forms of life will return. After all, every vertebrate in existence, comes from a single species of fish that survived a mass extinction event half a billion years ago.

[Michael Hardner]

30 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I am pessimistic. To solve this problem, we need to have everyone reducing consumption, reducing the population and reducing the use of petroleum and coal for the generation of energy. This effort needs to continue permanently, without interruption. I don't see that happening. Eventually, we'll get a con man who will say it is all a commie hoax and all the sacrifices will be for nothing. Our future generation will be condemned to a living hell until extinction, and it will be from no fault of their own. 

Well, ok but the 'eventually' part has been happening for over 20 years.

30 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

On the bright side. the earth will continue and hopefully, some forms of life will return. After all, every vertebrate in existence, comes from a single species of fish that survived a mass extinction event half a billion years ago.

Humans will persist, but under authoritarian rule by the elite - China style.  Democracy will be remembered as a quaint experiment that people were unable to manage because the appeal of educating oneself on issues of the day - economics, science, and sociology - was not as strong as the appeal of Monster Truck rallies, Kid Rock concerts, drugs, pornography and Game of Thrones.

[Queenmandy85]

The con man I was thinking of was Preston Manning and President Trump., but the fact is we have been deluding ourselves for over forty years. We can't rely on governments to change our way of life. They can only do what we want. My coffee has kicked in and now I am feeling optimistic. We are starting to react and while it is a bit late in the game, when humans see a problem, we often do what is necessary to change our behaviour. I haven't heard so much talk about nuclear power since the early 1960's. The next few centuries will be tough, but maybe we will pull through.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

1. We can't rely on governments to change our way of life. They can only do what we want.

2. My coffee has kicked in and now I am feeling optimistic. We are starting to react and while it is a bit late in the game, when humans see a problem, we often do what is necessary to change our behaviour.

3. I haven't heard so much talk about nuclear power since the early 1960's. The next few centuries will be tough, but maybe we will pull through.

1. We used to listen to wise elders, but two things happened: 

1) we stopped listening to the elders

2) the elders became as stupid as anyone else

2. Is it the coffee or possibly your morning MDMA?  I cut my cocaine with Coffee Mate so that everything is taken care of at once with my morning java.  ( JK coffee, black )

3. Maybe

[Queenmandy85]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. We used to listen to wise elders, but two things happened: 

1) we stopped listening to the elders

2) the elders became as stupid as anyone else

2. Is it the coffee or possibly your morning MDMA?  I cut my cocaine with Coffee Mate so that everything is taken care of at once with my morning java.  ( JK coffee, black )

3. Maybe

The elders were pretty ignorant when I was 18. By the time I was 21, I was amazed at how much they learned in just 3 years. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Queenmandy85

[myata]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) we stopped listening to the elders

2) the elders became as stupid as anyone else

Hey, this is interesting. So how do we know that the elders are wise? Should we listen first and think later (maybe in two generations, or maybe in five like residential schools)? Or should we check first that whatever is professed and whoever professes it, regardless of age and positions and regalia etc, actually makes sense, and not centuries ago but today?

Note, this is a tricky question with more than one answer.

Edited November 26, 2021 by myata

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The elders were pretty ignorant when I was 18. By the time I was 21, I was amazed at how much they learned in just 3 years. 

And by the time I was 50, I was appalled at what ignorant narcissists they had all become ?

[Michael Hardner]

So, the reason we really DON'T want authoritarianism is that it takes away meritocracy, puts all the decisions in a few hands that are not accountable, etc. and promotes corruption.

But when you look at the advances a country like China makes, while we in the west tear ourselves apart over pointless identity politics you start to wonder.   It doesn't make sense.

We hear a lot about corrupt politicians, but at least they're in the spotlight.  If they're not careful their misdeeds will be revealed and they could face career-ending consequences.   Would we ever notice if the people became more corrupt than the leaders ?  I doubt it.

[myata]

In China these days there's a developing personality cult. Authoritarianism is a temporary phase on the road to dictatorship, whatever form or flavor, that is effectively unchecked and unlimited power.

And now if we look at this country, some decisions, including important ones, are already made in an authoritarian fashion, and there are no checks, limits or independent oversight. What does it mean? Where is this path leading us?

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, myata said:

1. In China these days there's a developing personality cult. Authoritarianism is a temporary phase on the road to dictatorship, whatever form or flavor, that is effectively unchecked and unlimited power.

2. And now if we look at this country, some decisions, including important ones, are already made in an authoritarian fashion, and there are no checks, limits or independent oversight. What does it mean? Where is this path leading us?

1. What is the difference though ?  In the China example also what is it ?

2. Examples ? 

[myata]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. What is the difference though ?  In the China example also what is it ?

2. Examples ? 

1. The difference is in the degree. An authoritarian may tolerate some form of independence or dissent, entirely to their discretion as there's no outside, independent checks on their power. In a dictatorship, there's none. The difference is between 75,80% to complete loss of independence and freedom.

2. Residential schools; FLQ crisis; Covid health authoritarianism. Probably some/many more.

[eyeball]

On 11/17/2021 at 6:43 AM, myata said:

Just a reminder to admirers and advocates of strong hand and quick solutions: it always begins with public good, while ignoring and silencing critical questions. From there, a straight path to authoritarianism.

That said there are times and places where the only solution is a strong authoritarian hand.  Consider the case of an emergency on a boat at sea - do so in light of comparisons that can and have been made between a nation-state and a ship at sea. The next step along the path may be into catastrophe.

The comparison or analogy seems to break down of course where the line is drawn between the captain and crew (the government) and their passengers (the governed). Before passengers board my vessel they are instructed to follow my orders and I reinforce that with a safety briefing delivered while projecting my best command presence (I've been working on my 'Voice' as well). In a nation state however the 'passengers' in addition to being encouraged to obey the law and be good citizens are also encouraged to question authority at times to the point of rebelliousness. Having been thru a number of emergencies at sea in my career I have a pretty good idea how tragic they could have been if everyone on board had decided not to be good passengers.

Of course the analogy gets pretty stretched in a democracy where passengers can elect an alternative captain and crew if they don't like the one's in charge. Imagine doing that on a boat while the engine room is on fire.

I get what you're saying about abusing the concept of public good to justify authoritarianism while also simply saying there are times when the concept is a valid one. Ultimately its up to the passengers to decide when that moment is upon them.  

Edited December 15, 2021 by eyeball

[myata]

4 minutes ago, eyeball said:

get what you're saying about abusing the concept of public good to justify authoritarianism while also simply saying there are times when the concept is a valid one. 

I absolutely agree, anarchy can be as deadly as blindly following into a dead end or worse. There's no perfect answers here, and the society has to find questions, checks and guards against either of the extremes. In my view, professionalism, competence, ability to explain and communicate may go a long way, as well as the right to ask questions, including critical and obtain meaningful answers.

[eyeball]

16 minutes ago, myata said:

I absolutely agree, anarchy can be as deadly as blindly following into a dead end or worse. There's no perfect answers here, and the society has to find questions, checks and guards against either of the extremes. In my view, professionalism, competence, ability to explain and communicate may go a long way, as well as the right to ask questions, including critical and obtain meaningful answers.

There's a difference between having the right to question authority and having the wisdom or experience it takes to formulate good meaningful questions.  There's also a reason why it's always a good idea to ask if there's a doctor in the house during a medical emergency. 

I'll never forget the time I had a couple of old sailors standing behind me discussing my apparent intent to navigate thru a very narrow channel where you could see the rocky bottom when looking over the side. One was having palpitations but the other one was a doctor so...    Don't do this at home kids!

Edited December 15, 2021 by eyeball

[myata]

Generally, as far as I can think without claiming any expertise, in extreme or extraordinary situations several or many factors can play a role: experience, competence, professionalism of the leadership; their ability to communicate their intents and actions, if any group of people is involved; trust that has to be gained and maintained throughout; ability to evaluate situation continuously, intelligently and objectively and take effective decisions. Probably more. And few of them are obvious or easy in any challenging situation.

But more specifically to the issue at hand, the society has been in for very close to two years, and at that point I think and expect it deserves a meaningful conversation; explanation of the intent and actions, and expected outcomes. And if a leader, even very competent and professional one, fails to communicate effectively and expects only blind and unquestioned following it may also undermine the entire effort, in my view at least.