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Income growth since 1980


cannuck

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4 hours ago, onlythetruthmatters said:

1..There is no way I can prove to you that governments percentage of the economy percisely without taking months to compile the evidence.....

2. Government is growing every year and you have no common sense if you think otherwise. 

1. As I suspected

2. Ad hominem

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1 hour ago, onlythetruthmatters said:

Let me simplify it to you If GDP is rising 2% and government spending (plus debt) is rising more then 2%....then Government is growing as a % of the economy. This is the case for many years.

Not true.  

 

Government Debt to GDP in Canada averaged 78.23 percent from 1980 until 2018, reaching an all time high of 100.20 percent in 1996 and a record low of 44.90 percent in 1980.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Cannucklehead said:

Not true.  

 

Government Debt to GDP in Canada averaged 78.23 percent from 1980 until 2018, reaching an all time high of 100.20 percent in 1996 and a record low of 44.90 percent in 1980.

 

 

This doesn't include everything CPP liabilities etc.....don't forget they offloaded many programs onto the provinces...shuffling of the numbers. we also have 3 levels of government.

Also when i mention taxes I include all payroll taxes (including unemployment insurance CPP deductions). Governments % of the economy is Government spending plus debt plus deficit.

The total debt to GDP can drop and taxes go up (don't forget hidden taxes) and government percentage of the economy can rise.

Its all playing with numbers to put news headlines out to fool the general public...

Heres an example Ontario sold off hydro which had huge debt for one reason to get the debt off there balance sheet. which made things look good to the unknowing eye.

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3 minutes ago, onlythetruthmatters said:

I can prove it But it would take to much effort with no reward!

heres a complicated example If governments lower interest rates to 1% and Inflation is 2%...this is negative REAL interest rates...they can borrow money cheaply at 1%.... but it drives housing prices up so some renters pay higher rents and pension funds can't earn proper returns on fixed incomes so pension deficits rise.

Is this not a sophisticated way of transfering money from people to the state.....Taxes might not be the right word....but government % of the economy might better fit.

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Its really a erroneous to think we are a free economy when Government tries to control it by controlling interest rates etc. They think they can control the economy but they really can't. People in the know can just take the opposite bet against government policy example short income bearing securities creating a profit.This is a transfer of money and is one of the major reasons the rich are getting richer they are simply taking the opposite bet against government policy. Joe street has no clue whats going on its beyond his comprehension of the financial world.

Rather we are capitalist or not.....Interest rates have the biggest effect on economics and to let politicians and central banks control them is a big mistake. Its communist economics and can never work.

Within the interest rate world is long and short term rates which is another discussion in itself. Government has controlled Short term rates....They highjacked Long rates from the market with QE. This is going to lead to Big problems!!!!

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  • 1 month later...
On 8/29/2020 at 2:25 PM, onlythetruthmatters said:

Singapore personal tax rates start at 0% and are capped at 22% (above S$320,000) for residents and a flat rate of 15% to 22% for non-residents. To increase the resilience of taxes as a source of government revenue, Goods and Services Tax (GST) was introduced in 1994. The current GST rate is 7%.

 

MH do you think its a coincidence Singapore has a higher standard of living then Canada without the resources Canada has......Could it be the efficient lower tax rate!!!!....

Or could it be the fact that they are far more productive?

In reality I suspect a combination of both.

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On 8/30/2020 at 11:23 AM, onlythetruthmatters said:

Its really a erroneous to think we are a free economy when Government tries to control it by controlling interest rates etc. They think they can control the economy but they really can't. People in the know can just take the opposite bet against government policy example short income bearing securities creating a profit.This is a transfer of money and is one of the major reasons the rich are getting richer they are simply taking the opposite bet against government policy. Joe street has no clue whats going on its beyond his comprehension of the financial world.

Rather we are capitalist or not.....Interest rates have the biggest effect on economics and to let politicians and central banks control them is a big mistake. Its communist economics and can never work.

Within the interest rate world is long and short term rates which is another discussion in itself. Government has controlled Short term rates....They highjacked Long rates from the market with QE. This is going to lead to Big problems!!!!

Government can and does indeed control the economy.  You have already pointed out one component: taxation (THE most powerful influence to human financial decisions), but far beyond that are interest rates and above all rules, regulations and enforcement.  These are all and SHOULD be the realm of what government does - but not to try to BE the economy.  That is where our model fails miserably.

Simply put: the business of government should be to GOVERN (i.e. legislate, regulate and enforce) to provide a level playing field for capital to be employed.  Where governments around the world have failed their citizens is allowing business to actually control things such as interest rates, policy and enforcement.   We have all seen to total failure not of capitalism, but of what I prefer to call "Casino Capitalism" whereby Wall Street and Bay Street influence complete control over government to allow capital to be employed not for the creation of wealth (which IS capitalism) but for the re-distribution of wealth while adding no value (i.e. Casino Capitalism - trading equities, commodities and worst of all "synthetic instrumest" i.e. derivatives and the like).

By allowing finance to control government we get the worst of both.   This is why capitalism needs government - REPRESENTATIVE government - to protect its citizens and its economy.  Instead, we have "Rule-by-special-interest" that rewards its free hand by staying hands off of the highly interventionist activities of government attempting to do social engineering, pick winners and losers in the economy and even participate directly in the economy.

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  • 4 weeks later...
17 hours ago, onlythetruthmatters said:

generally government is less productive then business. that being said a country with a lower tax rate will be more productive.

I did mean the economy of the country, but that may well extend to government as well.  The culture of many Asian nations (certainly not all) is to work towards greater success and that extends into productivity.  Singapore certainly fits that  mold.

In our culture of Casino Capitalism, we no longer honour productivity, but worship accumulation of money.  Industrialists and entrepreneurship built the North American economy, but finance and speculation are destroying it.   We now reward the least productive among us the most.

Edited by cannuck
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  • 1 year later...
On 7/10/2020 at 2:53 PM, cannuck said:

Came across this at NYT today:

 

income-600.svg

Since 1980, the incomes of the very rich have grown faster than the economy. The upper middle class has kept pace with the economy, while the middle class and poor have fallen behind.

sorry the graph doesn't scale, but this is not the actual values, but the amount of INCREASE.  The top lie is the 0.01%, the second the 1% the dark line in the middle with a second line following is the top 10% of after tax earners and the GDP of the USA.   Those below are the "middle class" income and the bottom line is "lower class" income.

not sure if you can read this link without subscription:    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/24/opinion/income-inequality-upper-middle-class.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20200710&instance_id=20197&nl=the-morning&regi_id=100982531&segment_id=33074&te=1&user_id=2a3e757b2285568cc6aee5465e9acea4

What would be far more interesting to me is not this comparative rate of growth, but a clear depection of the ACTUAL dollars involved.   By some logic, the top line would be something like three orders of magnitude greater in difference - clearly pointing out just how poorly the North American (assume safely that Canada would look very much like the US in this respect) economy distributes wealth.

What never fails to amaze me is that everyone can clearly see these values, but NOBODY seems to understand what drives it:   speculative gain.   This is what crashed the economy of the world in 1929 and SHOULD have corrected once more in 2008, but those with the power to steer the economic ship simply declared themselves "too big to fail" and went right along wildly disproportionally redistributing wealth without the bother of having to create any wealth in the process.

 

Thanks for sharing the information 😇

Edited by nickjoky
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  • 5 weeks later...
On 12/21/2021 at 10:16 AM, MaeKrugern said:

Not government controls economics. Economic controls government. This is the truth. Every time we see the global crisis, the main reason for that is the speculations done for years.

It's nothing special, just some corporations making vast amounts of money, and when they are ready to go, they make the global economic crisis. We all know that the best way to make money is in times of crisis. When I read the article about Grant Cardone's net worth https://radicalfire.com/grant-cardone-net-worth/, I noticed that he used the COVID-19 crisis situation to gain even more profit for his business like he had some insider information before the pandemic happened.

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  • 11 months later...
On 7/10/2020 at 2:53 PM, cannuck said:

Came across this at NYT today:

 

income-600.svg

Since 1980, the incomes of the very rich have grown faster than the economy. The upper middle class has kept pace with the economy, while the middle class and poor have fallen behind.

sorry the graph doesn't scale, but this is not the actual values, but the amount of INCREASE.  The top lie is the 0.01%, the second the 1% the dark line in the middle with a second line following is the top 10% of after tax earners and the GDP of the USA.   Those below are the "middle class" income and the bottom line is "lower class" income.

not sure if you can read this link without subscription:    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/24/opinion/income-inequality-upper-middle-class.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20200710&instance_id=20197&nl=the-morning&regi_id=100982531&segment_id=33074&te=1&user_id=2a3e757b2285568cc6aee5465e9acea4

What would be far more interesting to me is not this comparative rate of growth, but a clear depection of the ACTUAL dollars involved.   By some logic, the top line would be something like three orders of magnitude greater in difference - clearly pointing out just how poorly the North American (assume safely that Canada would look very much like the US in this respect) economy distributes wealth.

What never fails to amaze me is that everyone can clearly see these values, but NOBODY seems to understand what drives it:   speculative gain.   This is what crashed the economy of the world in 1929 and SHOULD have corrected once more in 2008, but those with the power to steer the economic ship simply declared themselves "too big to fail" and went right along wildly disproportionally redistributing wealth without the bother of having to create any wealth in the process.

 

Very interesting research! 

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On 7/11/2020 at 3:42 PM, cannuck said:

The numbers that diverge from the GDP defined "average" were the 1% of 0.01% - who seldom have significant amount of their income derived from wages.  When it comes to those two portions, the speculative/finance world in Canada/US sees no borders.   I can agree with NYT that the 10% line follows GDP, but to defend that group against tax increases in a country that has $24 Trillion federal and another $5 or so state and muni accumulated debt and counting very rapidly is insane.  The US government debt now far eclipses the value of the economy.  Canada is quite different in this matter - but hardly "better".   Our federal debt around $1.2T (https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1010000201) according to how Statscan is reporting, but others estimate the combined fed/prov/muni debt load to be about $3.2 Cdn =$2.4 US, given the usual 10:1 ratio about the same as the US but our GDP is something like $2T, so we are WAY beyond the sad state of affairs in the USA.

Meanwhile, both countries simply watch all of the investment capital shift over to the Casino Capitalist courtyard of Wall Street and Bay Street, fleecing the real economy of the investment capital needed to create wealth. By the way if you are interested in casinos then I recommend reading this one: https://irnpost.com/best-captain-cooks-casino-online-games-for-canadians/ article to learn more.   Worse yet: we let them (the 1% but far more to the point the 0.01%) do so with a free ride on the real taxpayers' backs. 

Do you think that debt is bad? How do you feel about bank loans? Economics in general is an interesting topic to study. 

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