August1991 Posted June 16, 2020 Report Share Posted June 16, 2020 Many people ask these questions. How to decide whether a society is "civilised"? What is a "just society"? What is a "republic"? Is it different from a "democracy"? Which is better? Is there a difference between a "republic" and a "democracy"? How to count votes? What about an "empire"? Or, what about a "popular republic"? Hey, what about a "socialist system"? Or a "socialist republic"? How to count votes - truly? ====== I have a simple rule to determine whether a society is "civilized": do ordinary people voluntarily pay their taxes? More than definitions of democracy/republic, voting rights, voter registration, voting turnout, opinion polls - whether people pay their taxes is the best measure of whether a society is civilised. In civilised societies, most people voluntarily pay their taxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted June 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2020 People in Sweden, Japan, most of Canada, Nebraska, Idaho, Norway, even in Germany - people voluntarily pay their taxes. But In Brazil, Russia, Angola, New Jersey, Greece - people view taxes as theft: Something to avoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cougar Posted June 18, 2020 Report Share Posted June 18, 2020 On 6/16/2020 at 4:59 PM, August1991 said: In civilised societies, most people voluntarily pay their taxes. This means we do not live in a civilized society here in Canada and probably the States and probably many other places you previously deemed civilized. I DO NOT voluntarily pay my taxes, since I consider myself cheated and overtaxed out of existence! You have to ask who the society is fair to; people or all forms of life. One way or another it has always been about exploiting all other species - animals and plants to the point where their populations collapse and many of them disappear. A socialist society is better for the environment as people are not a commodity and there is no rush to increase population in order to expand the pool of customers and make profit. A socialist society may focus more on art, intellectual growth and enjoyment of life. A capitalist society is more about making money and exploitation. "Civilized" will be a term I associate with people's understanding of the needs of others and the need of other species to exist and accommodating those needs by limiting themselves and curbing their innate greed. By my definitions a capitalist society is inherently uncivilized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 Not always, according to Oswald Spengler. In the beginning a society is cultural. Then over time it grows into a civilization. Then at the end there is a sudden loss of civility, a reversion to barbarism. Then it "dies". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted June 19, 2020 Report Share Posted June 19, 2020 Here, check this out. It's a documentary about Spengler's views on culture and civilization, etc. About 24 minutes long. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted June 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) On 6/18/2020 at 1:10 AM, cougar said: This means we do not live in a civilized society here in Canada and probably the States and probably many other places you previously deemed civilized. I DO NOT voluntarily pay my taxes, since I consider myself cheated and overtaxed out of existence! But cougar, you probably pay your taxes. Hence, you pay taxes, uh, voluntarily. You're Canadian. Or Norwegian. I doubt that you live in Angola. ===== Welcome to the new definition of "civilisation". And a "civil society". Edited June 28, 2020 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 On 6/16/2020 at 11:05 PM, August1991 said: People in Sweden, Japan, most of Canada, Nebraska, Idaho, Norway, even in Germany - people voluntarily pay their taxes. But In Brazil, Russia, Angola, New Jersey, Greece - people view taxes as theft: Something to avoid. Lots of people in Canada view taxation as theft unless it's being collected for war, prisons, and for police for crackin' down gettin' tough on whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 On 6/19/2020 at 8:18 AM, OftenWrong said: Then at the end there is a sudden loss of civility, a reversion to barbarism. Then it "dies". Yeah, I guess people can only tolerate so much progress before melting down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted June 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, eyeball said: Lots of people in Canada view taxation as theft unless it's being collected for war, prisons, and for police for crackin' down gettin' tough on whatever. True. But these people in Canada nevertheless pay their taxes - at a minimum, they go to a place, and write a cheque. That's how I voluntarily pay my property taxes. ===== In "uncivilized" countries, people simply don't pay any taxes. Edited June 28, 2020 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 1 hour ago, August1991 said: True. But these people in Canada nevertheless pay their taxes - at a minimum, they go to a place, and write a cheque. That's how I voluntarily pay my property taxes. ===== In "uncivilized" countries, people simply don't pay any taxes. I don't know, the Panama Papers seemed to be involve some of the most putatively civilized people on the planet. Given just how unequal wealth has become the scope of tax evasion by the wealthiest is probably much more relevent than the scale of evasion by the poorest uncivilized people on the planet. It seems people like you me are the one's probably carrying civilization's load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted June 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, eyeball said: I don't know, the Panama Papers seemed to be involve some of the most putatively civilized people on the planet. Given just how unequal wealth has become the scope of tax evasion by the wealthiest is probably much more relevent than the scale of evasion by the poorest uncivilized people on the planet. It seems people like you me are the one's probably carrying civilization's load. Precisely. But this has nothing to do with rich/poor. IMHO. the measure of the civilisation of a society is whether people pay their taxes. It is not literacy, divorce rates, criminality, "democracy", voter turn out: a society is civilised if people voluntarily pay their taxes. Sweden and most of Canada are civilized. Most of Nigeria and Russia are not. You live in a civilised society when people around you voluntarily pay their taxes. ------ So, what is an "uncivilised" society"? You'll know that you're in an uncivilized society if you walk on a street and because of walls, you can't see the homes. In civilized societies, rich people do not need walls around their homes. Edited June 28, 2020 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 1 hour ago, August1991 said: In civilized societies, rich people do not need walls around their homes. And yet many build them anyway and more will need to if people ever got a sense the disclosures stemming from the Panama Papers are just the tip of an iceberg of a money laundering and influence peddling 'civilization' squatting on the planet on ordinary people's dimes. AFAIC a real civilization will be a transparent one that money can't buy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted June 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 52 minutes ago, eyeball said: And yet many build them anyway and more will need to if people ever got a sense the disclosures stemming from the Panama Papers are just the tip of an iceberg of a money laundering and influence peddling 'civilization' squatting on the planet on ordinary people's dimes. AFAIC a real civilization will be a transparent one that money can't buy. eyeball, if you walk in cities/towns - I often do - in civilised places/societies, there are no walls around homes. Connecticut. Alberta. Saudi Arabia, Russia, Thailand? Urban walls. Look at Google Maps. Pick a city. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted June 28, 2020 Report Share Posted June 28, 2020 11 hours ago, August1991 said: eyeball, if you walk in cities/towns - I often do - in civilised places/societies, there are no walls around homes. Connecticut. Alberta. Saudi Arabia, Russia, Thailand? Urban walls. Look at Google Maps. Pick a city. We have a gated community in Tofino. There are walls separating people everywhere you go on this planet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted June 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 (edited) On 6/28/2020 at 3:27 PM, eyeball said: We have a gated community in Tofino. There are walls separating people everywhere you go on this planet. Eyeball, wrong. In most of Canada, America (Red-State/Republican-voting), Australia - people do not have walls around their homes. OTOH, in most of the Middle East, rich China/Russia/India, families build walls around their homes. ===== Your example of Tofino is Third World/Fucked-Up Creep into Canada. I saw the same walls in Toronto recently. I haven't yet seen them in Montreal. ========= But to return to my point, did any of these homeowners pay their taxes? And how much did they pay? I recall that one State took aerial photographs to decide taxes. Edited June 30, 2020 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted June 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 (edited) On 6/28/2020 at 3:27 PM, eyeball said: We have a gated community in Tofino. There are walls separating people everywhere you go on this planet. And to return to my point, walls are not the issue. In civilised societies (Norway. Sweden, Saskatchewan, Iceland - even Alberta), people voluntarily go to an office and pay their taxes. Edited June 30, 2020 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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