Police Officers and Woman in the park cases to analyze

[Independent1986]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Infidel Dog said that the riots were due to 'misleading headlines', ie. in the poor neighbourhoods of Minneapolis/St. Paul they were all reading their New York Times, happily sippling bubble tea at breakfast, when that headline jolted them out of their happiness with the American experience.
2. This isn't a coherent sentence.  I'll assume you are saying 'in 2020, FOR any individual'.  And - who cares ?  You are poor and can work as a dishwasher scraping by, so that means you should accept suspects being murdered.
3. What is the alternative to blaming someone for their individual failures ?  Are you saying we should empathize with strangler cops ?  Ok.
4. They are businesses that make money from content.  It's a privilege to be able to be entertained by the news, though, IMO.
5. Well, I would say they care about their customers and advertisers.
6. Justice for whom ?  It certainly isn't 'hilarious' for anyone with a heart.
7. God forbid an information consumer coddled with marketing messages telling them how great they are should have to reflect on actual social problems.
8. Sure.  And then you have to not vote for politicians who support racist systems also, as that is a problem in all of our communities.
9. I hope I haven't offended your view that everything is ok.

2. What are you talking about ? Who agrees with the cop ? So you are basically assuming that by me making that statement i am saying that poor people should accept what happened. First of all I was talking about the media dividing people, not the specific first story, I stated 3 times here that the cop is a murderer.

3. Again you are trying to tie me in with the first story, it does not affect me because people get upset only if the fact is true, I was talking about the system/media that is dividing people and giving excuses for failures. The alternative ? Work hard, start from the bottom and don't listen to excuses when you fail, get up and try again. Some of us have personal stories about poverty that struggled hard to be where we are and don't fall that easy for this kind of propaganda.

4. Ok so that makes it right ? Doesn't the media have a responsibility to help society and the individual for a better life ? Then why are they called free and objective press, that is just prostitution. 

5. I am starting to think you are confusing my post, I was talking about the second story and how is poetic justice for that liberal person in the park to get her life ruined for the same system that she helped engineer which is no due process. Straight mob punishment. 

9. You have not offended me because I don't think you read carefully what I was talking about, or maybe you did that's your way of dealing with a different opinion is to accuse people of supporting the murderer cop. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Independent1986

[Argus]

20 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Infidel Dog said that the riots were due to 'misleading headlines', ie. in the poor neighbourhoods of Minneapolis/St. Paul they were all reading their New York Times, happily sippling bubble tea at breakfast, when that headline jolted them out of their happiness with the American experience.
 

On my TV this morning was some black girl screaming about how the police are all the descendants of slave catchers and slave owners, and that their job is to oppress black people and that black people aren't safe in the streets because of the racist police. This went on for long enough I finally turned the channel. And this was on a Canadian news channel. On CNN was some black reporter shouting at another person about how they need to understand the outrage of the black community at being continually targeted and murdered by police.

You don't think this sort of thing has an impact on the black community? Particularly when unjust or possibly unjust killings of blacks are massively overplayed by the media compared to similar incidents involving whites? In this same city a few years ago a white, forty year old blonde housewife called police to report hearing sounds outside her house. When police arrived she went out to meet them, still wearing her pajamas. She was shot down before she could say a word by a black cop, who then refused to answer any questions about what his justification was. There were no riots, and it was never portrayed as a racial thing. It got coverage, but not the same tone as we see when black men are killed.

A YEAR later the cop was charged and later convicted of murder.

[Argus]

5 minutes ago, Boges said:

That, or cops can stop murdering minorities. 

Bullshit.

When you task a group of some hundreds of thousands of people with physically enforcing laws and order, give them weapons and authority to use physical violence, and train them to aggressively confront any challenge there are going to be instances where some of them misuse their power and force and people die. That's inevitable. It doesn't happen any more often with minorities than it does with white people. It just gets much more press attention when the victim is a minority. The most outrageous abuse of police force that resulted in the deaths of innocent people all involved white people. But you wouldn't know that because that's not the media narrative.

5 minutes ago, Boges said:

I posted a video earlier in this thread of this Karen that refused to accept an $80 ticket. She even drove off and had to be chased down. The cop forced her out of the car and tazed her.

Imagine if that person was black. They'd have been shot the moment they refused to leave their car. 

Complete bullshit.

[Boges]

12 minutes ago, Argus said:

Bullshit.

When you task a group of some hundreds of thousands of people with physically enforcing laws and order, give them weapons and authority to use physical violence, and train them to aggressively confront any challenge there are going to be instances where some of them misuse their power and force and people die. That's inevitable. It doesn't happen any more often with minorities than it does with white people. It just gets much more press attention when the victim is a minority. The most outrageous abuse of police force that resulted in the deaths of innocent people all involved white people. But you wouldn't know that because that's not the media narrative.

What about what was seen in the video that was seen was defendable? That's just how they're trained? 

These riots have happened because a minority can be arrested for simple crimes but tough guy cop crushes a man's neck for an alleged non-violent crime and he's still not been charged. 

Here's an example of the inherent racism that police have. 

https://www.politico.com/states/new-york/albany/story/2020/05/08/black-and-latino-new-yorkers-get-vast-majority-of-social-distancing-summonses-1283223

Quote

In total, the NYPD has given out 374 tickets to people breaking rules banning gatherings and requiring people to keep their distance since March 16 — 304 of them, or 81 percent, went to black and Latino residents.

 

[WestCanMan]

On 5/27/2020 at 5:25 AM, Boges said:

Just in case you really though Colin Kaepernick was disrespecting the Troops. I think this comparison illustrates what he really was protesting. 

Can I protest police brutality by shitting on your lawn, lighting your car on fire, or would my protest lack precision?

IDGAF what he thinks he was protesting. He was shitting on the anthem, the entire flag, not just a portion of it.

Dead kids get wrapped in that flag and flown home from combat zones, period. He disrespected the flag, period. Anyone who doesn't understand that is just an idiot.

If he wants to find a way to protest that's up to him, but 1) he's not allowed to protest at work (Americans don't have that right) 2) he needs to find the right way to do it.

[Independent1986]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

6. Justice for whom ?  It certainly isn't 'hilarious' for anyone with a heart.
 

That number 6 point really showed how easy you can fall victim to emotion based thinking as well. You read what you wanted to read and turned it for your agenda. I was talking about the woman in the park, not the murder which is heartbreaking and criminal.

This is exactly what I am talking about, you never know who might twist your words and destroy your reputation, only takes 1 post, 1 click and 1 out of context text. No different than the french revolutionaries J'accuse!!!! 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Independent1986

[Boges]

4 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Can I protest police brutality by shitting on your lawn, lighting your car on fire, or would my protest lack precision?

IDGAF what he thinks he was protesting. He was shitting on the anthem, the entire flag, not just a portion of it.

Dead kids get wrapped in that flag and flown home from combat zones, period. He disrespected the flag, period. Anyone who doesn't understand that is just an idiot.

If he wants to find a way to protest that's up to him, but 1) he's not allowed to protest at work (Americans don't have that right) 2) he needs to find the right way to do it.

No one stopped him from protesting. But he certainly was blackballed for it. 

I like how white people set the rules for what is acceptable protest. Kneeling during the anthem. HERASY!!!! bringing guns to public places and threatening people because you can't get a haircut. First amendment!

[WestCanMan]

Bad killings by cops aren't super rare. It's not like it's "once every ten years". It just seems like when they're black it's automatically "RACISM!!!!"

It's just murder unless there's some sort of racist comment or something.

I saw a video about two weeks ago of a cop that killed a young white kid, probably 19-25 yrs old. The cop shot him twice before he hit the ground, then he shot him two more times about 5 seconds later. IMO he didn't need to be shot in the first place, but if the first two shots weren't fatal it was definitely murder. The kid wasn't about to attack anyone.

[Boges]

1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

Bad killings by cops aren't super rare. It's not like it's "once every ten years". It just seems like when they're black it's automatically "RACISM!!!!"

It's just murder unless there's some sort of racist comment or something.

I saw a video about two weeks ago of a cop that killed a young white kid, probably 19-25 yrs old. The cop shot him twice before he hit the ground, then he shot him two more times about 5 seconds later. IMO he didn't need to be shot in the first place, but if the first two shots weren't fatal it was definitely murder. The kid wasn't about to attack anyone.

Did you follow up and see what happened to the cop? 

I do think this is an overall police problem. Their culture breeds an attitude of respect my authoritah!!!!! 

[WestCanMan]

Just now, Boges said:

No one stopped him from protesting. But he certainly was blackballed for it. 

I like how white people set the rules for what is acceptable protest. Kneeling during the anthem. HERASY!!!! bringing guns to public places and threatening people because you can't get a haircut. First amendment!

The courts in the US already ruled that you have no right to protest at work. Do you think you can go to your day job and wear a t-shirt that says "Fuck Trudeau" and your boss has no recourse? (no, I didn't try that lol. self-employed)

CK wasn't "blackballed", he was fired, just like you or I would be. Any intelligent person can understand that.

FYI it's not just white people that bring guns to protests FYI. Black panthers did it as recently as 2015.

[WestCanMan]

5 minutes ago, Boges said:

Did you follow up and see what happened to the cop? 

Nope

Quote

I do think this is an overall police problem. Their culture breeds an attitude of respect my authoritah!!!!! 

Yeah, and it's a human problem. And a math problem. There are 1M cops in the US, having hundreds of thousands of tense interactions a day, it's impossible for shit not to go sideways sometimes. I don't think you can eliminate these things 100%, but charging the Minnesota cop with murder seems like a necessary step.

Something's fishy in this case though, all the video that we have so far is edited to only show the cops looking bad. The guy did something to end up on the ground like that, we just don't know what it was yet. I'm not saying it was bad enough to deserve death by knee-squash, I'd just like to see the whole story. 

[Boges]

4 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Something's fishy in this case though, all the video that we have so far is edited to only show the cops looking bad. The guy did something to end up on the ground like that, we just don't know what it was yet. I'm not saying it was bad enough to deserve death by knee-squash, I'd just like to see the whole story. 

Even if there was a mitigating circumstance, the suspect was detained and pleading for his life. 

It takes some sick person not to get your knee off his neck. 

Just like with the girl in Central Park. Who cares what the man said to her, she accused him of threatening violence, which he wasn't. 

[Argus]

29 minutes ago, Boges said:

What about what was seen in the video that was seen was defendable? That's just how they're trained? 

No, that was an arrogant fool who went against his training, probably out of some sort of macho anger at both the guy he'd arrested and the people yelling at him.

29 minutes ago, Boges said:

These riots have happened because a minority can be arrested for simple crimes but tough guy cop crushes a man's neck for an alleged non-violent crime and he's still not been charged. 

ANYONE can be arrested for simple crimes. I used the example of Justin Damand. Same city, three years ago. Took a year before the cop who killed her was charged.

And she was a law-abiding surburban blonde housewife in her pajamas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Justine_Damond

29 minutes ago, Boges said:

Here's an example of the inherent racism that police have. 

https://www.politico.com/states/new-york/albany/story/2020/05/08/black-and-latino-new-yorkers-get-vast-majority-of-social-distancing-summonses-1283223

So because most of the summonses were given to non-whites in a city where non-whites are the majority this constitutes racism? You have a pretty low threshold for that description.
Yes, the well off whites in Manhattan were obeying social distancing while people in the poorer areas of Harlem and Brooklyn were ignoring it. This is known. There have been many reports on it. Do you expect all people and communities to behave the same? Poor areas, which are mostly non-white, are going to act the same as the polite middle class, which is mostly white?

[Argus]

24 minutes ago, Boges said:

No one stopped him from protesting. But he certainly was blackballed for it. 

I like how white people set the rules for what is acceptable protest. Kneeling during the anthem. HERASY!!!! bringing guns to public places and threatening people because you can't get a haircut. First amendment!

You can go home and kneel during the anthem if you want to. But if I'm the team owner and your public display of kneeling during the anthem in my uniform is pissing off huge numbers of my customers and causing them to curse the team and tear up their seasons tickets and refuse to buy merchandise then you are damned sure going to get your ass fired.

[Argus]

8 minutes ago, Boges said:

Even if there was a mitigating circumstance, the suspect was detained and pleading for his life. 

Daniel Shaver was crying and begging for his life a couple of years ago. He was white, unarmed and had never broken the law. He was crawling towards them as ordered, wearing nothing but a t-shirt and boxer shorts. He still got shot dead by cops.

Quote

It takes some sick person not to get your knee off his neck.

I'm sure he convinced himself that the guy was faking it.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Argus

[WestCanMan]

50 minutes ago, Boges said:

Even if there was a mitigating circumstance, the suspect was detained and pleading for his life. 

It takes some sick person not to get your knee off his neck. 

I agree, I just want to see the whole thing, and not an edited version to make it look as incriminating as possible. 

Quote

Just like with the girl in Central Park. Who cares what the man said to her, she accused him of threatening violence, which he wasn't. 

I don't really know that whole story. She's truly an idiot. Case closed imo.

[Boges]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Yes, the well off whites in Manhattan were obeying social distancing while people in the poorer areas of Harlem and Brooklyn were ignoring it. This is known. There have been many reports on it. Do you expect all people and communities to behave the same? Poor areas, which are mostly non-white, are going to act the same as the polite middle class, which is mostly white?

I'm sure you can go to any public park and find White people not Social distancing. 

[Infidel Dog]

The problem with the blacks as victims/whites as victimizers narrative is it's a lie. I've heard it called "the big lie."

Did you want to debate stats? I'll start with these two because the first one brings up the subject of media statistical distortion.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/09/police-shootings-black-white-media-narrative-population-difference/

https://www.dailywire.com/news/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler

If you want to go "Aha, gotcha" to me, while showing me something from the LA Times or Washington Post, we'll be discussing statistical massaging to get the numbers to fit the message.

 

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

1. What are you talking about ? Who agrees with the cop ? So you are basically assuming that by me making that statement i am saying that poor people should accept what happened.

2. First of all I was talking about the media dividing people, not the specific first story, I stated 3 times here that the cop is a murderer.

3. Again you are trying to tie me in with the first story, it does not affect me because people get upset only if the fact is true, I was talking about the system/media that is dividing people and giving excuses for failures. The alternative ? Work hard, start from the bottom and don't listen to excuses when you fail, get up and try again. Some of us have personal stories about poverty that struggled hard to be where we are and don't fall that easy for this kind of propaganda.

4. Ok so that makes it right ? Doesn't the media have a responsibility to help society and the individual for a better life ?

5. Then why are they called free and objective press, that is just prostitution. 

6. I am starting to think you are confusing my post, I was talking about the second story and how is poetic justice for that liberal person in the park to get her life ruined for the same system that she helped engineer which is no due process. Straight mob punishment. 

7. You have not offended me because I don't think you read carefully what I was talking about, or maybe you did that's your way of dealing with a different opinion is to accuse people of supporting the murderer cop. 

1. I'm sorry I was trying to understand this: "In 2020 any individual regardless of color if he or she is willing to work hard and be a responsible member of society opportunities always arise."  I still don't understand it, in the context of this person's death.
2. Ok, well it wasn't clear.
3. What propaganda ?  That the cops killed a black guy ?  What does it have to do with working hard ?
4. Make what right ?
5. What is prostitution ?
6.  I don't think it's poetic justice.  Who got justice here ?
7.  No, it seems like I got your whole post wrong but it's a little oblong to defrag.

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

On my TV this morning was some black girl screaming about how the police are all the descendants of slave catchers and slave owners, and that their job is to oppress black people and that black people aren't safe in the streets because of the racist police. This went on for long enough I finally turned the channel. And this was on a Canadian news channel. On CNN was some black reporter shouting at another person about how they need to understand the outrage of the black community at being continually targeted and murdered by police.

1. You don't think this sort of thing has an impact on the black community?

2. Particularly when unjust or possibly unjust killings of blacks are massively overplayed by the media compared to similar incidents involving whites? In this same city a few years ago a white, forty year old blonde housewife called police to report hearing sounds outside her house. When police arrived she went out to meet them, still wearing her pajamas. She was shot down before she could say a word by a black cop, who then refused to answer any questions about what his justification was. There were no riots, and it was never portrayed as a racial thing. It got coverage, but not the same tone as we see when black men are killed.

You're asking me if black people being upset with a black person being killed has an impact on the black community ?

1. I guess the answer is 'yes'.

2. Well that's not fair but are we talking about how the public absorbs news and information or whether this incident with the black person should outrage people ?  It seems understandable that they be outraged but are they outraged because of that or because of... everything.  If you want to talk about how publics are designed then that's a higher-order conversation and I wouldn't invite a partisan like you to take part, frankly.

[New World Disorder]

20 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

Alex Jones is that you ?

We've seen this tactic from police before. 

[Argus]

20 hours ago, New World Disorder said:

It appears we have some evidence of police starting some of the fires in Minneapolis.

Show it then.

[WestCanMan]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

Daniel Shaver was crying and begging for his life a couple of years ago.

WTF, that's the worst thing I've ever seen in my life.

He didn't even go to jail, and he got a pension to boot.

Quote

Brailsford was involved in the fatal shooting of Shaver on Jan. 18, 2016, and was fired two months later. His trial began in late 2017, lasting six weeks before he was acquitted of a second-degree murder charge. He was temporarily rehired by Mesa police last August as part of the settlement that allowed him to file for accidental disability retirement benefits.

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by WestCanMan
extra info

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

You're asking me if black people being upset with a black person being killed has an impact on the black community ?

1. I guess the answer is 'yes'.

I'm saying that we don't see this kind of thing when a white person is killed unjustly by police. There are no outraged activists screaming about how police are targeting whites. There are no mobs or riots. There are no activists demanding that white people be protected from the racist police. And so when police kill a white person the impact on the white community is not nearly as strong. But when the media and the activist community set up every story like this as if it was racism and caused by the police war against blacks, and oppression it enrages people and sparks violence.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. Well that's not fair but are we talking about how the public absorbs news and information or whether this incident with the black person should outrage people ?  It seems understandable that they be outraged but are they outraged because of that or because of... everything.  If you want to talk about how publics are designed then that's a higher-order conversation and I wouldn't invite a partisan like you to take part, frankly.

Both incidents should and did outrage people. But the message behind the second was of incompetence and stupidity of a cop, while the message in this case and that of other black men is of deliberate murder by racist police who are hunting black men down in the streets. The media message is sparking violence and attacks on police. It's also sparking people to resist even legitimate efforts of police to maintain order, which leads to more violence. When police make arrests you see black people gathering around, screaming abuse, making threats, calling the police racist even without knowing why the individual is being arrested because of the narrative the media is delivering.

[Argus]

16 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

WTF, that's the worst thing I've ever seen in my life.

He didn't even go to jail, and he got a pension to boot.

Now imagine what would have happened had Shaver been black.

Police seem to be on a hair trigger these days, either terrified, or just poorly trained and disciplined. That man presented no threat, and yet the slightest move of his hand and a cop shot him dead. The same situation happened with Andrew Finch. Police gathered across the street, behind cars, wearing full SWAT gear including helmets and long guns, at night, with spotlights directed at this poor, confused bugger called out onto his porch. His hand moved in the general direction of his shorts, probably to pull them up and BANG dead.

Wyatt Earp on his best day could not have gotten off a shot at the cops across the street, but still, these cops shot him dead. American police, and to much the same extent Canadian police, are poorly trained, poorly disciplined, and trained to an aggressive, militaristic response to all perceived threats. Think of those moronic cops holding the girl dressed as a stormtrooper in front of a Star Wars shop in Lethbridge at gunpoint a few weeks ago. One wrong move and she'd have been dead.

It's not racism. It's incompetence and stupidity.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Argus