Military on the streets (if second wave) ?!

[Independent1986]

I live downtown Toronto, I go out once a day to grab lunch. Every day I see more and more people hanging out in groups, all ages from children to seniors. The disregard for social distance is out of control in the big cities in Canada. The police might be on vacation because I have not seen that many cop cars around.

As someone that is fighting daily for my professional and economic survival a second wave will be a disaster, not to mention the lives that will be lost. 

It is very hard for someone that values individual freedom like myself to ask this question: Should the military be deployed on the streets in case a second wave starts ? The more I think about it, maybe psychologically will deter a lot of people to stay inside when they spot soldiers around.

Looking forward to hearing your opinion.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Independent1986

[eyeball]

42 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

It is very hard for someone that values individual freedom like myself to ask myself this question: Should the military be deployed on the streets in case a second wave starts ?

I would hope that authorities are preparing for a massive effort at readying things for next falls's precautionary lock-down.  This should include a review of existing physical distancing measures from a compliance aspect and then beef up enforcement accordingly.

I also value my individual freedom and AFAIC failing to enforce the law threatens my freedom. I don't know why you would have any qualms about deploying the army to protect your freedom.  Similarly I want mandatory contact tracing and vaccination for the same reason, to protect my freedom to move around and go outside and to work without fear of some paranoid dingbat who's nursed an unreasonable fear and expectation the government is an insidious force acting against them. That said, governments are behooved to build public trust in the measures they use to keep everyone safe.  That means monitoring of governments and maybe even a little contact tracing of its officials now and then where it can make a difference towards greater transparency and accountability.

Whatever information the government collects as well as that collected by google and microsoft etc needs to be accessible to everyone its collected from.  If contact tracing isn't mandatory we should still have some means to protect ourselves from people who opt-out, call them zombies for lack of a better term. There could be a feature of whatever app we use to facilitate contact tracing that indicates how many unaccountable zombies are in the vicinity. This wouldn't have to identify the zombies around me but I would at least have the freedom to leave that vicinity if I choose.  If my app said there are 350 active trace apps and 5 zombies around me I could probably live with it. But as a high risk individual amongst the herd I'd like to know if there's 75 zombies around me to so I can leave the vicinity.

Further to the effectiveness review, it'll have to be fast and dirty, I'd like to see some serious effort put into identifying and separating anyone who is at risk of abuse from a spouse or more powerful family members during a lock down.  Our society can ill afford to be wasting time on any wastes of skin abusing their power over weaker people.  That's just especially egregious. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by eyeball

[OftenWrong]

Quarantine? Ach nay, it's merely a word. And if I am to die for a word laddie, then my word is... Poontang.

[Independent1986]

https://toronto.citynews.ca/video/2020/04/23/i-lost-my-house-everything-restaurant-owner-says-coronavirus-has-forced-him-out-of-business/

Imagine now a second wave. There is an ancient Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times". We sure are living interesting, troubling times.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Independent1986

[eyeball]

29 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

https://toronto.citynews.ca/video/2020/04/23/i-lost-my-house-everything-restaurant-owner-says-coronavirus-has-forced-him-out-of-business/

Imagine now a second wave. There is an ancient Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times". We sure are living interesting, troubling times.

I don't see why they need to be so troubling.  Capitalism need to start stepping up for businesses in trouble the way socialism is stepping up for people in trouble.  There's no need to leave anyone behind.  Doing so only puts pressure on us to jump the gun with the potential to make things far worse.

Edited May 8, 2020 by eyeball

[OftenWrong]

I say the mealy mouthed leadership will not have the stomach for it. They're already sending us out and the virus death rate hasn't even peaked yet. Economics trumps vaccine.

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, OftenWrong said:

Economics trumps vaccine.

Only if we choose to let it.

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, Independent1986 said:

I live downtown Toronto, I go out once a day to grab lunch. Every day I see more and more people hanging out in groups, all ages from children to seniors. The disregard for social distance is out of control in the big cities in Canada. The police might be on vacation because I have not seen that many cop cars around.

As someone that is fighting daily for my professional and economic survival a second wave will be a disaster, not to mention the lives that will be lost. 

It is very hard for someone that values individual freedom like myself to ask this question: Should the military be deployed on the streets in case a second wave starts ? The more I think about it, maybe psychologically will deter a lot of people to stay inside when they spot soldiers around.

Looking forward to hearing your opinion.

the actual amount of soldiers that could deploy in any situation like that,  controlling large population groups is actually quit small, you might be able to concentrate in the largest of cities and even that would be spread pretty thin....you'd have more city police than military guys...I could put it into context for you, the Winnipeg floods a decade or more ago, required all the army, and good portions of the Airforce and navy....Ice storm in Quebec, Ontario, and New Brunswick , took almost the entire army, some of the Airforce and some of the Navy....and that happened when nobody was deployed overseas....So i'm not sure just how effective the military would be, maybe 2 or 3 major cities , but it would be mostly for a presence, if anything happened they would be quickly over whelmed...not to mention their are laws that restrict our military operations in domestic ops, they do not have powers of arrest or any policing duties. 

The size of our military is just the way Canadians want it, small and powerless.

[Independent1986]

21 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I don't see why they need to be so troubling.  Capitalism need to start stepping up for businesses in trouble the way socialism is stepping up for people in trouble.  There's no need to leave anyone behind.  Doing so only puts pressure on us to jump the gun with the potential to make things far worse.

Who pays for socialism to step in for people in trouble ? Did Bernie Sanders sent some money from Vermont up to Canada ? Oh no wait, it might be those capitalists that pay up their nose in taxes.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Independent1986

[OftenWrong]

9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Only if we choose to let it.

Go ahead, eat your vaccine. Then after that you can eat your young.

[Independent1986]

37 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

the actual amount of soldiers that could deploy in any situation like that,  controlling large population groups is actually quit small, you might be able to concentrate in the largest of cities and even that would be spread pretty thin....you'd have more city police than military guys...I could put it into context for you, the Winnipeg floods a decade or more ago, required all the army, and good portions of the Airforce and navy....Ice storm in Quebec, Ontario, and New Brunswick , took almost the entire army, some of the Airforce and some of the Navy....and that happened when nobody was deployed overseas....So i'm not sure just how effective the military would be, maybe 2 or 3 major cities , but it would be mostly for a presence, if anything happened they would be quickly over whelmed...not to mention their are laws that restrict our military operations in domestic ops, they do not have powers of arrest or any policing duties. 

The size of our military is just the way Canadians want it, small and powerless.

Yes but if you have a few soldiers patrolling with local police units, psychologically the population will react differently if they see that beside 3 police uniforms there is a soldier fully equipped getting out of the car to inspect social distancing measures.

It is very hard to get that approved in Toronto though, the communists will scream the Nazis have arrived. There is an article already I think in the Toronto Star: "How can I explain to my child the military vehicles in his city?".  It is very easy to explain sir, if we don't get this under control and the markets don't recover you and your family might have to check every garbage bin for food in a few months.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Independent1986

[eyeball]

31 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

Who pays for socialism to step in for people in trouble ?

Society.

Quote

Did Bernie Sanders sent some money from Vermont up to Canada ? Oh no wait, it might be those capitalists that pay up their nose in taxes.

Ah I get it now, you're one of those conservatives. Let me guess you also think the economy was here before society and probably even our environment.

[eyeball]

35 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Go ahead, eat your vaccine. Then after that you can eat your young.

I'll help myself your cake first thanks. Now get back to work.

[Independent1986]

4 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Society.

Ah I get it now, you're one of those conservatives. Let me guess you also think the economy was here before society and probably even our environment.

People with ideas created "society". 

[eyeball]

21 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

People with ideas created "society". 

Lets cut past the babble to the chase.  The socialism this virus has unleashed is offensive to the economics trump fill-in-blank-here crowd who subscribe to a capitalistic puritanism that is forever fretful about who pays for it all or where the money comes from.  Well let me tell you, it comes from the same bottomless can that capitalists have been all to happy to plunder when it suits before adding the impetus of their own swift kick on its endless trajectory down the road.

The only reason to leave anyone behind is by choice and we're not on some last ditch desperate attempt to escape the middle of a desert where we need to leave people behind for the sake of pushing some concerned capitalists money ahead of us.

Edited May 8, 2020 by eyeball

[Independent1986]

17 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Lets cut past the babble to the chase.  The socialism this virus has unleashed is offensive to the economics trump fill-in-blank-here crowd who subscribe to a capitalistic puritanism that is forever fretful about who pays for it all or where the money comes from.  Well let me tell you, it comes from the same bottomless can that capitalists have been all to happy to plunder before adding the impetus of their own swift kick on its endless trajectory down the road on occasion

The only reason to leave anyone behind is by choice and we're not on some last ditch desperate attempt to escape the middle of a desert where we need to leave people behind for the sake of pushing our money ahead of us.

@Michael Hardner please don't sue me for plagiarism but I am copying your system of dividing ideas  

1. Your idealism will never allow you to reach your full potential.

2. Yes, socialism is unleashed and we are collapsing, the more I work and run the numbers the more I realize that this is serious, you happy ? You are just talking from a position that never ran a business, never had the stress that people's lives are at stake, you are just a man that follows directions and when it all fails it is so easy to point the finger at "management".

3. Who is leaving who behind ? In San Francisco the homeless have free alcohol and drug delivery on top of food. Don't you worry even if some of us will fail, other people with original ideas will rise and the system will live on. I am sorry they won't make you into a revolutionary general

Edited May 8, 2020 by Independent1986

[eyeball]

33 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

1. Your idealism will never allow you to reach your full potential.

Are you quoting Ayn Rand or something? You make these pronouncements like they were immutable laws of physics or the magical words of a religious doctrine.

Quote

2. Yes, socialism is unleashed and we are collapsing, the more I work and run the numbers the more I realize that this is serious, you happy ?

Well, just be happy we didn't get our way on climate change or you'd be posting this with smoke signals while roasting a rabbit you hunted/gathered.

Quote

You are just talking from a position that never ran a business, never had the stress that people's lives are at stake, you are just a man that follows directions and when it all fails it is so easy to point the finger at "management".and can't 

Is that what your nonpartisan knee-jerk characterizations say?  Meanwhile I've been a CEO, a project manager, and I even have a business number and remit the GST I collect.  I know it defies explanation doesn't it?

Quote

3. Who is leaving who behind ? In San Francisco the homeless have free alcohol and drug delivery on top of food. Don't you worry even if some of us will fail, other people with original ideas will rise and the system will live on. I am sorry they won't make you into a revolutionary general

I'm not worried, you are. And they made me a captain years ago which is not unlike being a dictator at times.  You sound like you've given up and are ready to die right here.  Whatever happened to rolling up your sleeves, sharpening your pencil and innovating a new type of lemonade out the lemons life's thrown at you?

When the going gets tough the tough do start crying like babies on occasion.  I've seen a few emergencies at sea and seen this a few times now.  Out of 10 people, two will jump right to it and ask what they can do to help and five will need to be told what to do which is usually tend to the rest that curl up into the fetal position and get ready to meet their maker.

Edited May 8, 2020 by eyeball

[Independent1986]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

Are you quoting Ayn Rand or something? You make these pronouncements like they were immutable laws of physics or the magical words of a religious doctrine.

Well, just be happy we didn't get our way on climate change or you'd be posting this with smoke signals while roasting a rabbit you hunted/gathered.

Is that what your nonpartisan knee-jerk characterizations say?  Meanwhile I've been a CEO, a project manager, and I even have a business number and remit the GST I collect.  I know it defies explanation doesn't it?

I'm not worried, you are.  You sound like you've given up and are ready to die right here.  Whatever happened to rolling up your sleeves, sharpening your pencil and innovating a new type of lemonade out the lemons life's thrown at you?

When the going gets tough the tough do start crying like babies on occasion.  I've seen a few emergencies at sea and seen this a few times now.  Out of 10 people, two will jump right to it and ask what they can do to help and five will need to be told what to do which is usually tend to the rest that curl up into the fetal position and get ready to meet their maker.

You keep posting this in regards to climate change/environment like it makes you superior. Adolf Hitler was a big believer in the environment too. I don't donate to communist organizations like Greenpeace but I do recycle and do the best I can as an INDIVIDUAL to protect the environment. 

Nobody is crying or giving up, that's the beauty of capitalism you fall to rise again, opportunity is endless. 

[eyeball]

19 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

You keep posting this in regards to climate change/environment like it makes you superior.

I'm simply reminded of all the doom and gloom you guys were certain action to address climate change would lead to, like going back to hunting and gathering. Did you honestly think what you're seeing around you is what activists had in mind?

Quote

Adolf Hitler was a big believer in the environment too. I don't donate to communist organizations like Greenpeace but I do recycle and do the best I can as an INDIVIDUAL to protect the environment. 

Sure anyone can see what a gracious community minded fellow with a veritable bundle of good intentions you are - let me guess you clip coupons and organize bottle drives for the Fraser Institute.

Quote

Nobody is crying or giving up, that's the beauty of capitalism you fall to rise again, opportunity is endless.

All the same, I've seen enough to know its probably best to just leave you behind when the new state of normal rises.

 

 

[Independent1986]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

Sure anyone can see what a gracious community minded fellow with a veritable bundle of good intentions you are - let me guess you clip coupons and organize bottle drives for the Fraser Institute.

 

 

haha

Edited May 8, 2020 by Independent1986

[Rue]

10 hours ago, eyeball said:

Society.

Ah I get it now, you're one of those conservatives. Let me guess you also think the economy was here before society and probably even our environment.

Oh I get it you are one of those communists. Let me guess you think socialism just came down out of the sky like snow. Poof it was there looking after everyone. It didn't depend on taxes. Socialism just appeared from thin air. There is no cost to it. You just say gimmee and poof you have meat on your plate, no conditions, no labour, no work,  no curtailing of freedoms, no lie ups, no oppressive surveillance and political police its all just nirvanah baby.The government is a big tit that just oozes out that milk for your commie heart desires.

How far you want to go with your delusions to try to point out someone else is deluded. Nothing more ridiculous then someone strung out on an lsd flashback from the 60's lecturing another on truth. You are Oprah talking about dieting.

Oooh  wow man, Che Gevera t shirts and berets, like I dig it baby. The woodstock generation. Everyone shared. Hah. The Rolling Stones weren't capitalists. They were musicians of the people. They never asked for money. Neither did Joan Baez, Bob Dylan, Janis, any of them. It was all peace and love man and Eye thinks if he wears his purple Janis Joplin spectacles its all just purple man.

Hey someone tell him Jimmi, Janis, Jim,  Keith Moon, etc., all overdosed and died. Choked on their own vomit.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Rue

[Rue]

12 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

I live downtown Toronto, I go out once a day to grab lunch. Every day I see more and more people hanging out in groups, all ages from children to seniors. The disregard for social distance is out of control in the big cities in Canada. The police might be on vacation because I have not seen that many cop cars around.

As someone that is fighting daily for my professional and economic survival a second wave will be a disaster, not to mention the lives that will be lost. 

It is very hard for someone that values individual freedom like myself to ask this question: Should the military be deployed on the streets in case a second wave starts ? The more I think about it, maybe psychologically will deter a lot of people to stay inside when they spot soldiers around.

Looking forward to hearing your opinion.

No I am not in favour of a military state. It starts off with good intentions...to save the people.

[Argus]

13 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

It is very hard for someone that values individual freedom like myself to ask this question: Should the military be deployed on the streets in case a second wave starts ? The more I think about it, maybe psychologically will deter a lot of people to stay inside when they spot soldiers around.

We don't have much of a military. Certainly not enough to be deployed in the streets of every major city in Canada. Toronto has almost as many police as we have infantry soldiers.

[Army Guy]

7 hours ago, Argus said:

We don't have much of a military. Certainly not enough to be deployed in the streets of every major city in Canada. Toronto has almost as many police as we have infantry soldiers.

We have x 3 infantry Regt spread across Canada's 3 Brigade groups( what composes most of the army).... , each Regt has 3 BN's , each BN might be equal to 600 troops (under manned),

all toll 5400 regular force infantry soldiers.... to put that into context the US Marine Corp has more women serving than all our army personal combined.... 

[-1=e^ipi]

I don't want to live in a police state.

The military swears its allegiance to the queen and her successors, rather that to Canada or to principles (such as freedom or democracy). So I don't entirely trust them, especially with the slate of authoritarian politicians we have in power ordering them around.

Edited May 9, 2020 by -1=e^ipi