why does Germany have such low death rate?

[cannuck]

Putting this in Federal politics, as I think it shows our lack of Federal co-ordination

Really good article from NYT. Not sure you can read without subscription, but worth a try to see if you can link:  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/world/europe/germany-coronavirus-death-rate.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20200405&instance_id=17362&nl=morning-briefing&regi_id=100982531&segment_id=23916&te=1&user_id=2a3e757b2285568cc6aee5465e9acea4

Bottom line: they do a LOT more testing, have since day one (all free). They initiated tracking and contact of potentially infected fairly early (as did South Korea even better) and they do testing at day 5 to 7 and take those with indications of potential severe prognosis into ICU at that point, probably straight to a ventilator. Other BIG deal? They have enough ICU capacity to do that.

Result is pretty much the lowest death rate of any country. Part of that is that those who might SEEM to be asymptomatic are recorded as confirmed, putting their infection rates very high (4rth in the world) - thus showing such a good survivability rate - but not to dismiss their excellent record of treatment.

Edited April 5, 2020 by cannuck

[Argus]

3 hours ago, cannuck said:

Putting this in Federal politics, as I think it shows our lack of Federal co-ordination

Really good article from NYT. Not sure you can read without subscription, but worth a try to see if you can link:  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/world/europe/germany-coronavirus-death-rate.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20200405&instance_id=17362&nl=morning-briefing&regi_id=100982531&segment_id=23916&te=1&user_id=2a3e757b2285568cc6aee5465e9acea4

Bottom line: they do a LOT more testing, have since day one (all free). They initiated tracking and contact of potentially infected fairly early (as did South Korea even better) and they do testing at day 5 to 7 and take those with indications of potential severe prognosis into ICU at that point, probably straight to a ventilator. Other BIG deal? They have enough ICU capacity to do that.

Result is pretty much the lowest death rate of any country. Part of that is that those who might SEEM to be asymptomatic are recorded as confirmed, putting their infection rates very high (4rth in the world) - thus showing such a good survivability rate - but not to dismiss their excellent record of treatment.

Don't forget, a low death rate is just a reflection of the number of tests vs the number of deaths. If you've only tested 10k people and 1k people die, you have a 10% death rate. But if you tested 100k people and 1k people die you have exactly the same situation but a 1% death rate. It doesn't really mean things are any better. You could both have the same number of actual cases, but statistically, the more testing makes the death rate look better.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Argus

[WestCanMan]

24 minutes ago, Argus said:

Don't forget, a low death rate is just a reflection of the number of tests vs the number of deaths. If you've only tested 10k people and 1k people die, you have a 10% death rate. But if you tested 100k people and 1k people die you have exactly the same situation but a 1% death rate. It doesn't really mean things are any better. You could both have the same number of actual cases, but statistically, the more testing makes the death rate look better.

That's what was meant by:

Quote

 Part of that is that those who might SEEM to be asymptomatic are recorded as confirmed, putting their infection rates very high (4rth in the world) - thus showing such a good survivability rate

 

[cannuck]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

That's what was meant by:  Part of that is that those who might SEEM to be asymptomatic are recorded as confirmed, putting their infection rates very high (4rth in the world) - thus showing such a good survivability rate

I should explain that we have a child who is rather expert in matters of cellular biology.  She explains that the reason you can test positive is that you ARE symptomatic, just that for many people, those symptoms are not recognized or even recognizable.  But, if you test positive, you ARE technically symptomatic.   Sunday dinner around here is like Big Bang...think of me as Sheldon's Dad but Sheldon is two sisters, not fraternal twins.

[Rue]

7 hours ago, cannuck said:

Putting this in Federal politics, as I think it shows our lack of Federal co-ordination

Really good article from NYT. Not sure you can read without subscription, but worth a try to see if you can link:  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/world/europe/germany-coronavirus-death-rate.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20200405&instance_id=17362&nl=morning-briefing&regi_id=100982531&segment_id=23916&te=1&user_id=2a3e757b2285568cc6aee5465e9acea4

Bottom line: they do a LOT more testing, have since day one (all free). They initiated tracking and contact of potentially infected fairly early (as did South Korea even better) and they do testing at day 5 to 7 and take those with indications of potential severe prognosis into ICU at that point, probably straight to a ventilator. Other BIG deal? They have enough ICU capacity to do that.

Result is pretty much the lowest death rate of any country. Part of that is that those who might SEEM to be asymptomatic are recorded as confirmed, putting their infection rates very high (4rth in the world) - thus showing such a good survivability rate - but not to dismiss their excellent record of treatment.

This should also answer Dialama's question to Pinky on another thread about early testing. You know Canuck after Sars we were supposed to put early testing protocols in place like Germany's but our governments never did becausec Sars petered out  so our short sighted politicians shifted their priorities. Germany, South Korea, Taiwan all offer examples of proper planning our governments chose to ignore...

Edited April 5, 2020 by Rue

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

but our governments never did becausec Sars petered out  so our short sighted politicians shifted their priorities.

Find me a conservative who would've supported a government who thought ahead to the tune of 10s of millions or maybe 100s of millions of tax dollars toward a non-existent pandemic.  You know perfectly well they would have objected strenuously to such "waste".  Some would have derided liberals for being so gullible as to think a pandemic was likely, or even particularly dangerous, floated conspiracy theories, pointed to the inaction of other nations as a model to follow.  Two of those things are happening in the midst of the pandemic, as well as the mirror-image if the third. You can't blame governments entirely for the short-sightedness of those who give them power.

Edited April 5, 2020 by dialamah

[SpankyMcFarland]

Beyond finding more asymptomatic cases, Germany’s high testing rate may mean diagnosing symptomatic cases earlier. They also have an unusually large number of ICU beds per capita. Within Germany, there is a suggestion that the eastern part has a lower rate of infection; some have hypothesized this may be due to its higher rate of BCG immunization. 

[Rue]

32 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Find me a conservative who would've supported a government who thought ahead to the tune of 10s of millions or maybe 100s of millions of tax dollars toward a non-existent pandemic.  You know perfectly well they would have objected strenuously to such "waste".  Some would have derided liberals for being so gullible as to think a pandemic was likely, or even particularly dangerous, floated conspiracy theories, pointed to the inaction of other nations as a model to follow.  Two of those things are happening in the midst of the pandemic, as well as the mirror-image if the third. You can't blame governments entirely for the short-sightedness of those who give them power.

Don' know Di...I blame all politicians..for this....I believe every politician in a certain sense is short sighted and focuses first on spending that gets them re-elected. That to me is a non partisan phenomena typical of all politicians elected. As for bureaucrats never met one including me who were not idiots. No blame game from me as to any one political party...also as a consumer I believe I bare the blame for  some of this if I knowingly buy dangerous unsafe products. 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Rue

[Argus]

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

Find me a conservative who would've supported a government who thought ahead to the tune of 10s of millions or maybe 100s of millions of tax dollars toward a non-existent pandemic.

You called?

[cannuck]

6 hours ago, Rue said:

This should also answer Dialama he's question to Pinky on another thread about early testing. You know Canuck after Sars we werexsupposed to put early testing protocols in place but our governments never did as Sars petered out. Germany, South Korea, Tauwan and offer examples of proper planning our governments chose to ignore...

IIRC it hit right between or straddling Chretien and Martin, and neither did diddly squat about it.  By Harper's time, it was all forgotten but I can't give him a break on this one.  Once the LPC came back to power, the drama queen spent all of our tax dollars signalling virtue, but delivering nothing but misery and embarrassment to the nation.  After the little Tur...TRUdeau crashed the economy by allowing a tiny pair of "ancestral chiefs" simply walk all over the elected chiefs and council to shut down the entire Canadian rail system for weeks, it only seems logical that he would pay zero attention to what was obvious as the New Year started was a disease problem that WOULD spread out of China.   We lost two months before his band of half-wits in cabinet even started to think about doing something to isolate Canada from the stream of Iranians, Europeans and Egyptians who simply stepped off of their planes unchallenged and unquestioned - to get the infection deeply seeded in Canada.

[Rue]

13 hours ago, cannuck said:

IIRC it hit right between or straddling Chretien and Martin, and neither did diddly squat about it.  By Harper's time, it was all forgotten but I can't give him a break on this one.  Once the LPC came back to power, the drama queen spent all of our tax dollars signalling virtue, but delivering nothing but misery and embarrassment to the nation.  After the little Tur...TRUdeau crashed the economy by allowing a tiny pair of "ancestral chiefs" simply walk all over the elected chiefs and council to shut down the entire Canadian rail system for weeks, it only seems logical that he would pay zero attention to what was obvious as the New Year started was a disease problem that WOULD spread out of China.   We lost two months before his band of half-wits in cabinet even started to think about doing something to isolate Canada from the stream of Iranians, Europeans and Egyptians who simply stepped off of their planes unchallenged and unquestioned - to get the infection deeply seeded in Canada.

Sizzle.  I hear Wes, Argrrrr and you loud and clear. Agreed. Just I call him a shtoonk, putz, imbecile, not traitor.

[cannuck]

I think the mental challenges of silver spoon mr dressup don't prevent him from FEELING like he is well intended, but obviously leave him incapable of THINKING about the consequences of his action and/or inactions.   The hell of it is: he has surrounded himself with like-minded individuals.

[eyeball]

19 hours ago, cannuck said:

IIRC it hit right between or straddling Chretien and Martin, and neither did diddly squat about it.  By Harper's time, it was all forgotten but I can't give him a break on this one.  Once the LPC came back to power, the drama queen spent all of our tax dollars signalling virtue, but delivering nothing but misery and embarrassment to the nation.  After the little Tur...TRUdeau crashed the economy by allowing a tiny pair of "ancestral chiefs" simply walk all over the elected chiefs and council to shut down the entire Canadian rail system for weeks, it only seems logical that he would pay zero attention to what was obvious as the New Year started was a disease problem that WOULD spread out of China.   We lost two months before his band of half-wits in cabinet even started to think about doing something to isolate Canada from the stream of Iranians, Europeans and Egyptians who simply stepped off of their planes unchallenged and unquestioned - to get the infection deeply seeded in Canada.

Do you have a similar run down of all the reasons Harper forgot?  Maybe you just forgot.

I can only imagine what kind of virtue signalling the little turd would have been accused of if he'd spent hundreds of millions of dollars or more beefing up our health system in preparation for something Harper in his wisdom ignored.

Edited April 6, 2020 by eyeball

[cannuck]

On 4/6/2020 at 3:49 PM, eyeball said:

Do you have a similar run down of all the reasons Harper forgot?  Maybe you just forgot.

I can only imagine what kind of virtue signalling the little turd would have been accused of if he'd spent hundreds of millions of dollars or more beefing up our health system in preparation for something Harper in his wisdom ignored.

As I said, giving him no break.   There was no acceptable excuse.

[Argus]

On 4/6/2020 at 5:49 PM, eyeball said:

Do you have a similar run down of all the reasons Harper forgot?  Maybe you just forgot.

I can only imagine what kind of virtue signalling the little turd would have been accused of if he'd spent hundreds of millions of dollars or more beefing up our health system in preparation for something Harper in his wisdom ignored.

Well, Harper didn't have any money to spare, for one thing. He was determined to balance the books once past the recession. Whereas Trudeau has never balanced a budget and never will, and doesn't care. So given he had limitless money why didn't he do anything?

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

Well, Harper didn't have any money to spare, for one thing. He was determined to balance the books once past the recession.

Yeah well it's no wonder, he misplaced $3 billion getting us prepared for a pandemic of terror that never materialized and has evaporated along with just about everything else in the face of a pandemic that actually mattered.

BTW where was all the opposition concern and outrage over Canada's lack pf preparedness, medical supplies and capacity to deal with real pandemic while they were in opposition?  Shouldn't the Conservative Party accept responsibility for being as oblivious as everyone else leading up to this and not bringing such a far far more important threat than terrorism to light?

This hindsight business is so easy, its no wonder right-wingers forever regard the world from the view in their rear-view mirror. All they ever have to come up with is blame and excuses.

Edited April 8, 2020 by eyeball