Should Canada Continue to Allow Full-Term Abortion?

[Zeitgeist]

9 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Me too!

You said it.  

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You said it.  

Yeah, I'm completely pro choice.  I'm pro choice for any reason, including gender selection, up to and including kindergarten.  I'm pro assisted suicide, for any reason.  I think women ought to be able to rent out their wombs, I think people ought to be able to sell their organs to the highest bidder.  Even if they have only one.

I can't bear the tyranny of those who want to take charge of someone else's body.

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Yeah, I'm completely pro choice.  I'm pro choice for any reason, including gender selection, up to and including kindergarten.  I'm pro assisted suicide, for any reason.  I think women ought to be able to rent out their wombs, I think people ought to be able to sell their organs to the highest bidder.  Even if they have only one.

I can't bear the tyranny of those who want to take charge of someone else's body.

I never knew you were so dystopian.  I would suggest that a society that supports the strong  taking advantage of the vulnerable who can’t fend or make decisions for themselves, whether young or old, is very inhuman.  I guess if you don’t mind putting your life in the hands of those who choose to exercise their power over you when you’re old and frail...

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I never knew you were so dystopian.  I would suggest that a society that supports the strong  taking advantage of the vulnerable who can’t fend or make decisions for themselves, whether young or old, is very inhuman.  I guess if you don’t mind putting your life in the hands of those who choose to exercise their power over you when you’re old and frail...

I don't.  I'm hoping to buy some young guy's organs so he can give the money to his poor family for food and shelter.

I suggest that anyone who wants to control someone else's choices based on how they themselves feel about issues is also inhuman.

[-1=e^ipi]

So which views scare you in particular?

1. The legalization of cocaine and other hard drugs?

2. The legalization of third trimester abortions?

3. The support of a mixed health care system, which includes private clinics?

4. Acknowledging that transmen can have abortions?

5. the legalization of the sale of a fetus for money?

6. The legalization of designer babies?

Edited February 5, 2020 by -1=e^ipi

[-1=e^ipi]

Here's a good video by freedom advocate John Stossel on designer babies.

 

[WestCanMan]

On 1/31/2020 at 5:04 PM, dialamah said:

People who suggest women having nearly full-term abortions are doing so for no better reason than they changed their mind about having a baby at 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 months along.  It's a ridiculous assumption and anyone who thinks that clearly has no regard or respect for women generally.

It did say in the OP that it's legal to do it to healthy, viable babies. 

We all totally get that if a woman stands a strong chance of dying, or if the baby would be living with crippling mental and physical disabilities, it's a different story.

This is just a case of "The baby doesn't have any human rights until it gets a toe out" and it's stupid. 

[Zeitgeist]

26 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I don't.  I'm hoping to buy some young guy's organs so he can give the money to his poor family for food and shelter.

I suggest that anyone who wants to control someone else's choices based on how they themselves feel about issues is also inhuman.

When those choices involve maiming or killing, no, that's not legitimate freedom because it comes at great an expense to others.  Yes, people can donate a kidney and expendable organs for a fee if they wish, but there's a line.  Some pretty savage practices happen on the black markets in the Far East where people will compromise their health to pay for their families' next meals.  That's not cool and there have to be protections.  It's also why we have a social safety net, to prevent that level of desperation. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[-1=e^ipi]

40 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Yeah, I'm completely pro choice.  I'm pro choice for any reason, including gender selection, up to and including kindergarten.  I'm pro assisted suicide, for any reason.  I think women ought to be able to rent out their wombs, I think people ought to be able to sell their organs to the highest bidder.  Even if they have only one.

I can't bear the tyranny of those who want to take charge of someone else's body.

Absolutely. And sadly, our social-conservative PM Trudeau still denies the rights of gay people to buy and sell eggs, sperm, and surrogacy services. A right that gay people in the U.S. have.

[-1=e^ipi]

'Pro-lifers' should stop eating meat, because otherwise they are hypocrites. A cow has a bigger cerebral cortex than a human fetus. If it's fine to eat a cow then it should be fine to abort a fetus.

Edited February 5, 2020 by -1=e^ipi

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

When those choices involve maiming or killing, no, that's not legitimate freedom because it comes at to great an expense to others.  Yes, people can donate a kidney and expendable organs for a fee if they wish, but there's a line.  Some pretty savage practices happen on the black markets in the Far East where people will compromise their health to pay for their families' next meals.  That's not cool and there have to be protections.  It's also why we have a social safety net, to prevent that level of desperation. 

Not if they involve killing someone who would rather live, no.  I'm not suggesting removing organs from someone who objects.  Not only would that be wrong, I'd probably get in some kind of patent infringement trouble with the Chinese, and I don't want that.

Why would you think you have the right to tell me what I can and cannot do with my organs? Why would you think you have the right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her womb?  What are you like on assisted suicide?  Do you want to force people to live when they don't want to?  That's pretty savage!

Edited February 5, 2020 by bcsapper

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, -1=e^ipi said:

'Pro-lifers' should stop eating meat, because otherwise they are hypocrites.

Human life is more precious to almost all humans than other forms of animal life and non-animal life.  Our laws support that morality.  If you think otherwise, I can't help you.  Make your charitable donations in your will out to cats when you die rather than people.  You won't be alone in making such gestures.  My aunt prefers dogs to people.

[-1=e^ipi]

Likewise, if its fine to buy and sell cow corpses, it should be fine to buy and sell fetuses. In addition, by allowing for the pricing mechanism of the glorious free market, this will allow for a more economically efficient allocation of finite resources (in this case fetuses) to scientific research.

Edited February 5, 2020 by -1=e^ipi

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, -1=e^ipi said:

'Pro-lifers' should stop eating meat, because otherwise they are hypocrites. A cow has a bigger cerebral cortex than a human fetus. If its fine to eat a cow then it should be fine to abort a fetus.

But not eat a fetus.  We have to draw the line somewhere!

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Human life is more precious to almost all humans than other forms of animal life and non-animal life.  Our laws support that morality.  If you think otherwise, I can't help you.  Make your charitable donations in your will out to cats when you die rather than people.  You won't be alone in making such gestures.  My aunt prefers dogs to people.

Border Collies or Black Labs, sure.  Not Pit Bulls or Pekinese.

Edited February 5, 2020 by bcsapper

[-1=e^ipi]

2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

But not eat a fetus.  We have to draw the line somewhere!

For health reasons, perhaps a restriction could be justified...

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Not if they involve killing someone who would rather live, no.  I'm not suggesting removing organs from someone who objects.  Not only would that be wrong, I'd probably get in some kind of patent infringement trouble with the Chinese, and I don't want that.

Why would you think you have the right to tell me what I can and cannot do with my organs? Why would you think you have the right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her womb?  What are you like on assisted suicide?  Do you want to force people to live when they don't want to?  That's pretty savage!

We have medical ethics for damn good reasons, to prevent the abuse of people.  I'm against assisted suicide and abortion, though I do understand why these things happen in exceptional circumstances and I'd never judge someone who makes those decisions unless it was done out of sheer carelessness.  I know those laws don't have a hope of being rescinded.  The laws are well established and the courts support them.  Nevertheless, there are qualitative differences in the life of a three week old embryo versus an eight month old fetus, obviously, and to refer to such a fetus, which could survive as a baby outside of the womb, as just womb or part of a woman's body to dispense with as she wishes is wrong.

[Zeitgeist]

9 minutes ago, -1=e^ipi said:

Likewise, if its fine to buy and sell cow corpses, it should be fine to buy and sell fetuses. In addition, by allowing for the pricing mechanism of the glorious free market, this will allow for a more economically efficient allocation of finite resources (in this case fetuses) to scientific research.

Sick puppy. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

We have medical ethics for damn good reasons, to prevent the abuse of people.  I'm against assisted suicide and abortion, though I do understand why these things happen in exceptional circumstances and I'd never judge someone who makes those decisions unless it was done out of sheer carelessness.  I know those laws don't have a hope of being rescinded.  The laws are well established and the courts support them.  Nevertheless, there are qualitative differences in the life of a three week old embryo versus an eight month old fetus, obviously, and to refer to such a fetus, which could survive as a baby outside of the womb, as just womb or part of a woman's body to dispense with as she wishes is wrong.

I can't imagine carelessly availing myself of a medical professional to help me end my life. 

You would not want me to do so, carelessly or with the greatest of care, unless I met your criteria, right?

Edited February 5, 2020 by bcsapper

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Sick puppy. 

You think they should be donated?

[Zeitgeist]

8 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

You think they should be donated?

Okay now you're trolling...

[-1=e^ipi]

12 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Sick puppy. 

I don't support people doing these things. I just support people's freedom to do ridiculous things. Society is only truly free if the line between what you are allowed to do and what you are not allowed to do is deep into ridiculous territory.

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, -1=e^ipi said:

I don't support people doing these things. I just support people's freedom to do ridiculous things. Society is only truly free if the line between what you are allowed to do and what you are not allowed to do is deep into ridiculous territory.

There are things to be appreciated about libertarianism, especially around things like drug decriminalization and a more realistic and supportive framework around prostitution, I think.  So many considerations, so little time.  And I don't care about people changing their gender if they feel like a different gender "on the inside".  Maximize freedom for sure, as long as people aren't hurt in the process...

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Okay now you're trolling...

No, I'm not. 

I see no reason why aborted fetuses should not be mined for stem cells, or used in medical research.  With the owner's permission of course.  I would say for some kind of remuneration, if such can be negotiated, but if not, donated, for the greater good, is okay.

I never troll.  I occasionally joke, like i did with the kindergarten comment.

Edited February 5, 2020 by bcsapper

[-1=e^ipi]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

There are things to be appreciated about libertarianism, especially around things like drug decriminalization and a more realistic and supportive framework around prostitution, I think.  So many considerations, so little time.  And I don't care about people changing their gender if they feel like a different gender "on the inside".  Maximize freedom for sure, as long as people aren't hurt in the process...

Who is harmed by selling a fetus for money for use in stem cell research? Abortion is already legal.