Richard Gwyn and Liberal Canada

[August1991]

Richard Gwyn wrote a celebratory piece about Liberal Canada in the Toronto Star today, starting with a reference to a Frank McKenna speech at the Empire Club:

McKenna talked passionately about Canada itself, about how we're in pretty good shape as nation-states go, and, most forcefully, about how it was time for all our interest groups, regional and ethnic, to stop carping about this or that Canadian shortcoming and, instead, dare to celebrate the nation.

Then Gwyn moved on to the reasons for Canada's greatness under a Liberal regime:

Two persuasive tests exist of the success of any nation-state in today's global circumstances.

One is whether it is paying its bills, so that it's not loading its debts onto coming generations and so can make tough choices among the virtually unlimited demands for spending.

On that score, Canada stands near the top of the class. Countries that we once thought were far better organized and tougher-minded, like Germany and Japan and the U.S. and France, are all in a fiscal mess.

The other measure is the ability, in a world that's now global, to attract, absorb, integrate, learn from and teach its own values to newcomers who mirror the globe in all its different languages and cultures and colours. Like Jean.

In the scale of our immigration, and in the effectiveness of our integration of the great majority of these newcomers, we are unquestionably at the top of the class.

Paying its bills? The balancing of government books is meaningless. Whether a government has a deficit or a surplus is no measure of the economic competence of a government, or of its policies. The true measure of competence is how a government spends our money.

Attract newcomers? The last time I checked, we allow about 250,000 foreigners or so into the country every year but then many of them leave, usually for the US. In fact, Canada provides an immigration service for the US. It could be argued that Toronto's generous welfare benefits, financed by Alberta oil, keep some immigrants in Canada. But the ambitious sort leave within a generation.

So much for Gwyn's two tests. But Gwyn ignored a few other "tests" about this wonderful Canada the Liberal Party has supposedly husbanded and protected.

Despite all the natural resources anyone could wish for, the space, the land, we must rely on silly UN measures to claim we have the best standard of living. (And even by those measures, we are no longer top-rated.) We should not measure ourselves against the world, but against what we can be. We are far from potential.

Canada is on the verge of radical separation. Rather than manage the regional relations within this country wisely, the Liberal Party has chosen a route of dishonest confrontation. In all likelihood, the PQ will win the next Quebec election and judging by polls, the next referendum will be "yes". Then what?

Whereas Australians can take pride (even secretly) in their place in the world, English-Canadians are irrelevant, or look like Democrats Abroad.

Canada now has a stupidly corrupt government. Our senior politicians are obviously ordinary people. Why can't they shop in Wal-Mart like the rest of us? Or fly commercial? That's what Norwegian and Australian ministers do. (I might admire a smartly corrupt government but these guys are not arrogant, they're just dumb. They could have hidden their gum purchases.)

Underneath all, Gwyn's piece reflects the fact that the Liberal Party (Chretien/Martin/Kinsella) are bottom denominators. How sad. They bring Canada down.

I think English Liberal Canada is in for a loud wake up call. All the pieces are on the table. Yet to say this, in English Canada at least, is tantamount to "burning the American flag". How dare you question the goodness of Canada? Well there, I've done it.

[Riverwind]

Despite all the natural resources anyone could wish for, the space, the land, we must rely on silly UN measures to claim we have the best standard of living.  (And even by those measures, we are no longer top-rated.)  We should not measure ourselves against the world, but against what we can be.  We are far from potential.

August,

This is about the only statement in your rant that I could agree with. Canada has many issues - however you left out the biggest one: self important politicians that seek to advance their own careers by exaggerating regional differences and preach hatred instead of tolerance, understanding and co-operation. Quebec separatists are the worst examples, however, they are not the only ones (the federal Liberals certainly share part of the blame). What puzzles me is how you can criticize the federal Liberals for their mistakes on the national unity front but not acknowledge the self-centered nature of Quebec nationalism and how it sabotages the political environment in this country. It is difficult to build a country when you neighbor keeps spitting in your face - and that is exactly what Quebec nationalists do every time they come up with new 'demands' and seek to obstruct national institutions.

If Canada is to succeed it must move beyond this petty regionalism. Unfortunately, this national maturation cannot happen as long as Quebequers refuse to vote for a national party like the CPC. Simply replacing the Liberals with a CPC with no representation in Quebec will change nothing.

[fellowtraveller]

If Canada is to succeed it must move beyond this petty regionalism. Unfortunately, this national maturation cannot happen as long as Quebequers refuse to vote for a national party like the CPC. Simply replacing the Liberals with a CPC with no representation in Quebec will change nothing.

The regionalism extends far beyond Quebec. Divide and conquer is a cornerstone of Liberal policy. Demonize Alberta, isolate the Maritimes through equalization, pander to Ontario... it all works to get them re-elected and ultimately tear us apart.

[Argus]

Richard Gwyn wrote a [url=http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?

The other measure is the ability, in a world that's now global, to attract, absorb, integrate, learn from and teach its own values to newcomers who mirror the globe in all its different languages and cultures and colours. Like Jean.

In the scale of our immigration, and in the effectiveness of our integration of the great majority of these newcomers, we are unquestionably at the top of the class.

I would argue that, given the terrible circumstances of third world nations, ANY western nation could attract massive immigration if it threw open its doors. As for the rest. We do not absorb or integrate newcomers, nor teach them our values. So I guess that makes us a miserable failure on this front too.

[Bakunin]

I think we do have a financial mess, the Federal debt as been taken care of, its still enormous and its gonna take an eternity to fix it, however what we pay back in the federal debt is added mutiplied by 3 to the provincal debt of evry province except Alberta. So in other word, our overall debt is still growing fast. Less faster than many country but it still growing fast and we did spent big time from the 70's to the 90's, we spent more than most of other and bigger country.

There is still alot of thing to cut. This is why i think the perequation should go to the debt instead and the federal should stop spending in anything else than what he his supposed to do (army, national security and diplomacy), its all we ask. For the rest, evry region of canada as his own political vision. Imposing a national vision is all about dividing, fighting, generating conflicts and endless sadness by anything outside ontario.

I think we could live with that, i guess ervy region would be ready to capitulate to ontario's voter decision and instore a liberal monarchy reign over canada forever and ever. We would be ready if they would at least leave us alone and stop invading our provincial juridiction, overtaxing citizen and imposing national standard such as a communist Healthcare system. We would be ready if the provinces would receive their proper share of the taxes and don't have to beg evry year for ottawa to pay its share of healthcare and education.

The only way to do this is by fixing the constitution and define exactly what a federal government and a province can and cannot do. Meech was a good start. Impossing a constitution on regional part of a country like trudeau did is exaclty what the soviet union did and we all know how it ended... maybe we can spare the damage but we will have to act quickly because the country won't survive another 10 years like this.

And by the way, immigration is a good way to fix the financial debt because it share our debt to a wider mass. However, like you say Argus, we will have to find a better way to integrate them. I suggest we give this task to the provinces to organize the ground work and try to let the immigrants choose what kind of province fits their vision, needs and culture. With all their personality, i guess anyone could be pleased in coming to canada. We shouldn't all park them in toronto's ghetto.

[Yodeler]

Richard Gwyn wrote a [url=http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?

On that score, Canada stands near the top of the class. Countries that we once thought were far better organized and tougher-minded, like the U.S., are all in a fiscal mess.

This reminds me of my grandfather who had a great business going, supplying steel tips to some big shoe manufacturer, Tom Bata was his name I think. When this manufacturer ran into minor financial difficulties due to some unethical practices of some other big shoemakers, my grampa was certainly happy that Tom still kept on buying his steel tips. But he couldn't help gloating how he was 'better organized and tougher-minded' and that THAT'S why he was not in the fiscal mess that Tom was.

Needless to say, Tom kicked his ass out. WITH a steel tipped shoe!

The moral I learned from this story? Don't bite the hand that feeds you!

[August1991]

A thread raised from the back of beyond.

Canada has many issues - however you left out the biggest one: self important politicians that seek to advance their own careers by exaggerating regional differences and preach hatred instead of tolerance, understanding and co-operation. Quebec separatists are the worst examples, however, they are not the only ones (the federal Liberals certainly share part of the blame).

Self-important politicians seeking to advance careers are part of modern civilized, democracies. I have no quibble. (What politician doesn't have a big ego?)

Regional differences? Quebec separation?

Canada has a federal system. Many people in Canada have legitimate reasons to defend the way they organize their affairs. IOW, maybe it's time to think about why Canada is a federal state.

IME, and given this post-2001 world, Quebec "separatists" have a clear idea of who they are and why this deserves collective protection.

Richard Gwyn and Mark Steyn, for example, should maybe take note.

To people like Gwyn, I can say that the Trudeau-Liberal Canada is a 1960s, John Lennon fraud. Trudeau and Lennon suggested that there were no standards - we could all be perfectly bilingual, or celebrities. That's not true. Civilized society must rely on standards. Gwyn's description of the "success" of Canada is evidence of the fraud.

To people like Steyn, I can say that the Quebec Bill 101 is a genuine effort to state what one is. There should be no doubt why Quebec has presented the term "accommodement raisonnable".

[blueblood]

A thread raised from the back of beyond.

Canada has many issues - however you left out the biggest one: self important politicians that seek to advance their own careers by exaggerating regional differences and preach hatred instead of tolerance, understanding and co-operation. Quebec separatists are the worst examples, however, they are not the only ones (the federal Liberals certainly share part of the blame).

Self-important politicians seeking to advance careers are part of modern civilized, democracies. I have no quibble. (What politician doesn't have a big ego?)

Regional differences? Quebec separation?

Canada has a federal system. Many people in Canada have legitimate reasons to defend the way they organize their affairs. IOW, maybe it's time to think about why Canada is a federal state.

IME, and given this post-2001 world, Quebec "separatists" have a clear idea of who they are and why this deserves collective protection.

Richard Gwyn and Mark Steyn, for example, should maybe take note.

To people like Gwyn, I can say that the Trudeau-Liberal Canada is a 1960s, John Lennon fraud. Trudeau and Lennon suggested that there were no standards - we could all be perfectly bilingual, or celebrities. That's not true. Civilized society must rely on standards. Gwyn's description of the "success" of Canada is evidence of the fraud.

To people like Steyn, I can say that the Quebec Bill 101 is a genuine effort to state what one is. There should be no doubt why Quebec has presented the term "accommodement raisonnable".

Bill 101 is one of the most Stalinistic pieces of legislation in Canada if not the most. This coming from an area of Canada that claims to be civilized is flat out hypocrisy. If Quebec is truly civilized they will repeal this horrible bill and let the people do what they want.

If Alberta pulled a stunt like this they'd be tarred and feathered by the canadian public, what gives Quebec the right to do this?

[August1991]

Bill 101 is one of the most Stalinistic pieces of legislation in Canada if not the most.

Really?

What is English Canada? What are the basic elements of Canada's civilized society?

I sometimes think that English-Canadians, given their simplistic anti-Americanism, are simply naive.

[blueblood]

Bill 101 is one of the most Stalinistic pieces of legislation in Canada if not the most.

Really?

What is English Canada? What are the basic elements of Canada's civilized society?

I sometimes think that English-Canadians, given their simplistic anti-Americanism, are simply naive.

I don't think Alberta has a law like Bill 101 with regards to English instead of French, in fact I don't think any of the other provinces do. None of the other provinces in Canada were taken to a UN court regarding language laws.

A basic element of Canada's civilized society is freedom of expression and speech, something that doesn't really fly in Quebec --> Bill 101 and reasonable accomodation anyone. The double standard is sickening.

[Michael Bluth]

I sometimes think that English-Canadians, given their simplistic anti-Americanism, are simply naive.

Agreed that anti-Americanism is very naive. I don't think it is more prevalent among English-Canadians than among French-Canadians.

[August1991]

I don't think Alberta has a law like Bill 101 with regards to English instead of French, in fact I don't think any of the other provinces do. None of the other provinces in Canada were taken to a UN court regarding language laws.

A basic element of Canada's civilized society is freedom of expression and speech, something that doesn't really fly in Quebec --> Bill 101 and reasonable accomodation anyone. The double standard is sickening.

Language is not an issue in English Canada.

But can English Canada stand up and defend what it is? What is English Canada? Is English Canada a Trudeau-Liberal creation? As I say Blueblood, you strike me as naive - in your anti-Americanism.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not defending nationalism. Instead, I think all Canadians should think about what Canada is and defend its basic principles.

[geoffrey]

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not defending nationalism. Instead, I think all Canadians should think about what Canada is and defend its basic principles.

That sure sounds like nationalism to me. Defending Canada's principles?

Bah. Individuals should think about what they are, and their place in the world, and defend their basic principles. What the 'nation' believes is irrelevant, and I shouldn't be expected to endorse values I do not support myself.

There are many basic 'Canadian principles' I disagree with, as with 'Albertan' principles I disagree with. I think 'Canadian principles' have different definitions in Calgary, Toronto and Montreal. More evidence that government needs to be in the hands of those that understand local realities. Having Quebecois and Ontarians making choices for Albertans is like basing the government and the representatives of Brazil in Calgary.

It's silly to think that Canada can be a cohesive nation in terms of government policy. It will never work, regardless if Quebec is having second thoughts. Canada belongs as a very decentralised Federal state at best, though it's more likely that Canada will only have regional understanding when it assumes the status of something along the lines of the EU.

[blueblood]

I don't think Alberta has a law like Bill 101 with regards to English instead of French, in fact I don't think any of the other provinces do. None of the other provinces in Canada were taken to a UN court regarding language laws.

A basic element of Canada's civilized society is freedom of expression and speech, something that doesn't really fly in Quebec --> Bill 101 and reasonable accomodation anyone. The double standard is sickening.

Language is not an issue in English Canada.

But can English Canada stand up and defend what it is? What is English Canada? Is English Canada a Trudeau-Liberal creation? As I say Blueblood, you strike me as naive - in your anti-Americanism.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not defending nationalism. Instead, I think all Canadians should think about what Canada is and defend its basic principles.

Ever watch a Molson Canadian commercial a few yrs. ago? The guy listing off the stereotypes and the whole I am thing. Personally that's not my bag, I'm answering the question however. That is showing how we can stand up if need be. Also the whole Vimy ridge thing in defining Canada as a nation.

Some would say we are under attack culturally from the Americans which is why we have that ridiculous CRTC. Yah it's safe to say English Canada has stood up and defended itself from a perceived "American cultural threat" The whole MTV, ABC, FOX, CBS, NBC thing. English Canada is pretty much the states culture with a maple leaf tacked onto it.

However we don't need a draconian and ridiculous Bill 101 like Quebec thinks it needs. English Canada knows what it is, it accepts the fact that the Americans have such a strong culture and works with it instead of shutting it out. If English Canada wasted as much time and money as Quebec concerning language and culture, our economy would be in the toilet as well.

Those guys who took the gov't of Quebec to court were defending Canada's basic principles, it's a shame the gov't of Quebec feels it has to violate them to protect it's culture from the so-called bogeyman.

[Nocrap]

If Canada is to succeed it must move beyond this petty regionalism. Unfortunately, this national maturation cannot happen as long as Quebequers refuse to vote for a national party like the CPC. Simply replacing the Liberals with a CPC with no representation in Quebec will change nothing.

The regionalism extends far beyond Quebec. Divide and conquer is a cornerstone of Liberal policy. Demonize Alberta, isolate the Maritimes through equalization, pander to Ontario... it all works to get them re-elected and ultimately tear us apart.

"The regionalism extends far beyond Quebec. Divide and conquer is a cornerstone of Liberal policy. Demonize Alberta, isolate the Maritimes through equalization, pander to Ontario... it all works to get them re-elected and ultimately tear us apart."

Hmmm. This is not merely a Libral re-election strategy. Harper has practically given Quebec a blank cheque and has even gone so far as to 'bail out' Alberta??? (Our local paper has just reprinted Harper's 'Build a Firewall Around Alberta' speech and it has been the topic of much discussion). I have never seen a time when Canada has been this divided. I always took pride in saying I was a Canadian and for the most part still do, though I'm constantly having to apologize for our government. Yes. It was the Liberals fault because without the 'Sponsorship Scandal' the Reform Party (aka National Citizens' Coalition) would never have been able to form a government. We've simply becaome an extension of the Bush administration, with 'Bush Logic' (and I use the term loosely.) Polarize the population with hot button issues....pretend to be a holier than thou Christian, and then sit back while the masses duke it out.

[Argus]

Bill 101 is one of the most Stalinistic pieces of legislation in Canada if not the most.

Really?

What is English Canada? What are the basic elements of Canada's civilized society?

I sometimes think that English-Canadians, given their simplistic anti-Americanism, are simply naive.

It has been my experience, August, that French Canadians, being generally further to the left and more anti-military, are more anti-American than English Canadians. Further, just what is French Canada? English Canada that speaks a different language? They are Socialists like their European brethren, but how does that make them unique? If you cut off a piece of Quebec and dropped it into the middle of France how different would they be - as compared to cutting off a piece of Ontario and dropping them into Texas or California, or even New York?