Dougie93 Posted January 13, 2019 Report Posted January 13, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: I view Jackson and Lee as America's finest generals, historically. Lee destroyed his army and nation, at the foot of Cemetery Ridge, so Lee, no. Jackson, yes, Lee wasn't all that, after he lost ol' Blue Light. Even tho Jackson was a butcher when it came to his own men, but he thought he was just sending them off over the river and under the trees. Edited January 13, 2019 by Dougie93 Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 13, 2019 Report Posted January 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Dougie93 said: But you said America has first strike options on the books, so is there anything unlawful in executing those? Yes....the UN would scream bloody murder. Canadians and Euro weenies would protest against "war criminals". That's why we don't talk about it much. Defense vs. Offense is a fun political game, but the missiles don't give a damn. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2019 Author Report Posted January 13, 2019 Just now, Dougie93 said: Lee destroyed his army and nation, at the foot of Cemetery Ridge, so Lee, no. Jackson, yes, Lee wasn't all that, after he lost ol' Blue Light. Even tho Jackson was a butcher when it came to his own men, but he thought he was just sending them off over the river and under the trees. Lee early on was unbeatable. Jackson met his fate at Chancellorsville...hard to say the outcome of Gettysburg if Jackson had II Corp. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Dougie93 Posted January 13, 2019 Report Posted January 13, 2019 Just now, DogOnPorch said: Lee early on was unbeatable. Jackson met his fate at Chancellorsville...hard to say the outcome of Gettysburg if Jackson had II Corp. Lee was unbeatable early on because he was relying on Jackson, his "right arm" Quote
Dougie93 Posted January 13, 2019 Report Posted January 13, 2019 (edited) Not to mention the Yankees made it easy on them, trucking out McClellan, who was running for office instead of fighting a war. Edited January 13, 2019 by Dougie93 Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2019 Author Report Posted January 13, 2019 The noisiest Cold Warrior...the Tu-95. Apparently, you can feel this one coming. Same beast that carried the Tsar Bomb. Crews often feather the inner engines to preserve hearing and sanity. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2019 Author Report Posted January 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: Lee was unbeatable early on because he was relying on Jackson, his "right arm" Yes...they were a pair. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Dougie93 Posted January 13, 2019 Report Posted January 13, 2019 11 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Yes....the UN would scream bloody murder. Canadians and Euro weenies would protest against "war criminals". That's why we don't talk about it much. Defense vs. Offense is a fun political game, but the missiles don't give a damn. Well then I'm having trouble coming up with reasons why the Two Man Rule actually insulates anybody from anything. I'm not one of these people who thinks Trump is crazy and going to blow us all up, but any President could end up where JFK was and have to make the call. And to decline the order, so far it sounds like "reasons" why it could be declined. Like, what reasons? Quote
Dougie93 Posted January 13, 2019 Report Posted January 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: Yes...they were a pair. Anyways, Billy Sherman was the best general of the war. The night it was declared he predicted how it was all going to go. And then he was the one who made it happen. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 13, 2019 Report Posted January 13, 2019 13 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: I mean, I'm aware you can decline an unlawful order, I've actually done it for real, but does the US consider first strike to be unlawful? I know what international law says, but what does America say? America says that every goddamn inch of the planet has been radar mapped and profiled for attack if/when necessary, including the current weather over the target. A first strike would not be unlawful if it was consistent with established protocols. 1 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2019 Author Report Posted January 13, 2019 Little Mac was a contradiction...generous and beloved by the troops he equipped and trained so well. He was afraid to commit them to battle. The modern American officer process beats that bone out of you. Thus the 45 cals BC mentions. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Dougie93 Posted January 13, 2019 Report Posted January 13, 2019 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: America says that every goddamn inch of the planet has been radar mapped and profiled for attack if/when necessary, including the current weather over the target. A first strike would not be unlawful if it was consistent with established protocols. So if the Russians or Chinese start moving to a place where the first strike is warranted, Trump could order it and the SECDEF could not decline. Quote
Dougie93 Posted January 13, 2019 Report Posted January 13, 2019 1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said: Little Mac was a contradiction...generous and beloved by the troops he equipped and trained so well. He was afraid to commit them to battle. The modern American officer process beats that bone out of you. Thus the 45 cals BC mentions. He was afraid to commit them to battle because he wanted to be President and if it was a bloodbath, that would come back to haunt him come campaign time. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2019 Author Report Posted January 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Dougie93 said: He was afraid to commit them to battle because he wanted to be President and if it was a bloodbath, that would come back to haunt him come campaign time. They all wanted to be President. Most came from the same place...West Point. But Mac was truly beloved by the Army of the Potomac. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 13, 2019 Report Posted January 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Dougie93 said: So if the Russians or Chinese start moving to a place where the first strike is warranted, Trump could order it and the SECDEF could not decline. SecDef could still decline...there is nothing special about Russians or Chinese in such a scenario. First Strike means different things....total strategic throw weight to decimate an entire nation all the way down to a single bunker buster. Two-Man Rule is about observation and compliance....it's really hard to destroy the world even if you want to ! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Dougie93 Posted January 13, 2019 Report Posted January 13, 2019 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: SecDef could still decline...there is nothing special about Russians or Chinese in such a scenario. First Strike means different things....total strategic throw weight to decimate an entire nation all the way down to a single bunker buster. Two-Man Rule is about observation and compliance....it's really hard to destroy the world even if you want to ! Not for Putin and Xi it's not. They've got their chains of commands cowering in the bottom of their trenches. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 13, 2019 Report Posted January 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Dougie93 said: Not for Putin and Xi it's not. They've got their chains of commands cowering in the bottom of their trenches. It's still hard to do....JFK and Reagan came close...but there are negative feedback loops that keep things stable, or hell, it would have happened by now. China just wants to be a big dog like the USA, doing things the USA has done, like going to the Moon. Russia just wants to stop the bleeding from a Cold War lost, not destroy the West. 1 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2019 Author Report Posted January 13, 2019 China is still a bit of a paper tiger in terms of the military. Unless huge blocks of troops still count for something. I think they and Viet-Nam might go at it again one day. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2019 Author Report Posted January 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: It's still hard to do....JFK and Reagan came close...but there are negative feedback loops that keep things stable, or hell, it would have happened by now. China just wants to be a big dog like the USA, doing things the USA has done, like going to the Moon. Russia just wants to stop the bleeding from a Cold War lost, not destroy the West. Conditions were just right in 1962 for things to approach midnight. Confusion over communications actually saved the day. Two messages? Respond to the softer one... Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Dougie93 Posted January 13, 2019 Report Posted January 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: I think they and Viet-Nam might go at it again one day. Except probably at sea this time, yes the NVA had the edge on them in the jungle, but at sea I'm not so sure. Quote
Dougie93 Posted January 13, 2019 Report Posted January 13, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: It's still hard to do....JFK and Reagan came close...but there are negative feedback loops that keep things stable, or hell, it would have happened by now. China just wants to be a big dog like the USA, doing things the USA has done, like going to the Moon. Russia just wants to stop the bleeding from a Cold War lost, not destroy the West. Didn't say it was easy, just searching for a viable path. People now believe it is against the laws of physics somehow. Not me tho, if it wasn't doable, why have the weapons at all? Edited January 13, 2019 by Dougie93 Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2019 Author Report Posted January 13, 2019 Just now, Dougie93 said: Except probably at sea this time, yes the NVA had the edge on them in the jungle, but at sea I'm not so sure. The glory days of the NVA are also a longtime ago. In 1975, they were some of the finest troops on the planet. Now? More policing their own people like all third world armies. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Dougie93 Posted January 13, 2019 Report Posted January 13, 2019 Just now, DogOnPorch said: The glory days of the NVA are also a longtime ago. In 1975, they were some of the finest troops on the planet. Now? More policing their own people like all third world armies. Tru. 1 Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 13, 2019 Report Posted January 13, 2019 Just now, Dougie93 said: Didn't say it was easy, just searching for a viable path. People now believe it is against the laws of physics somehow. Not me tho, if it wasn't doable, then why have the weapons at all? The technical path already exists....platforms and nuclear weapons don't know if they are being launched by the Wicked Witch of the West or Glinda, the Good Witch of the South. What you are asking is a political question and feel good ruse for the masses. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Dougie93 Posted January 13, 2019 Report Posted January 13, 2019 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: The technical path already exists....platforms and nuclear weapons don't know if they are being launched by the Wicked Witch of the West or Glinda, the Good Witch of the South. What you are asking is a political question and feel good ruse for the masses. War is simply politics by other means, I don't need any feel goods, like you, I've been living under the shadow of it since childhood, got used to it a long time ago. Quote
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