The Worst Time Ever to Accept the CPC

[montgomery]

The US is now immersed in extreme right fascism with Trump and if Canada accepts the Conservative extreme right in Canada, it  would be a leg up for fascism in yhr US too.. Only socially responsible government as is being promoted by the Liberals can save everything that is good about Canada. No doubt the Conservatives want to destroy our universal heath care system and turn it into something resembling the US 'for-profit system. No doubt the Conservatives hate to hear that Canada holds a place as one of the top ten happiest countries in the world, while the US declines into greedy capitalism. And no doubt the Cons' leader, Scheer, is totally aligned with the Trump regime.

Now is the time for Canada to move away from the US and reject their racism, gun lust, greed, huge income inequality, and hate for refugees with brown skin. All issues the Conservative would have Canadians accept to become more like Americans.

 

[Dougie93]

Fascism would only rise to power in Canada in the event of a catastrophic economic crisis, but if that comes to pass, there would be nothing you could do to stop it, who you vote for in the meantime is of no consequence.

[montgomery]

Along with the US's  racism, gun lust, greed, huge income inequality, and hate for refugees with brown skin. , I should have also mentioned manmade climate change denial. All of these issues that are leading to fascism in the US are popular talking points with the CPC. 

They deny none of it. The creeping sickness of Trump is catching on with the Conservatives because they know fascist tricks work with smallminded people who need some minority to blame for their problems. This is the definition of fascism, we no longer have to wonder what the CPC's intentions are.

[montgomery]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

Fascism would only rise to power in Canada in the event of a catastrophic economic crisis, but if that comes to pass, there would be nothing you could do to stop it, who you vote for in the meantime is of no consequence.

It didn't take a 'catastrophic economic crisis' in the US Dougie, it came slowly after Trump planted the seeds of hate in the minds of his followers Just find a minority to hate and it takes a strong foothold in even  a capitalist and democratic country. The CPC are creating the conditions in Canada to fllow suit. Hate of immigrants and Conservative views that immigrants need to already speak our language is a part of it. No more Syrians or the people who are in the direst of need, choose the ones that are pre-made to start making money for Con business interests. 

[Dougie93]

Well, Trump is a product of the Iraq War quagmire followed the 2008 financial crisis backlash, but neither was catastrophic enough to incite full on fascism, Trump himself is not a fascist, New York liberal political opportunist riding the wave of discontent into office, and the fascists in the US who I've spoken to online  say  Trump is obviously not a fascist nor do they expect him to be a fascist, they just voted for him in the hopes he would curtail immigration. Mind you, plenty of non fascists I've spoken to have expressed the same desire to curtail immigration, curtailing immigration is certainly not a desire which is limited to the fascists.

[turningrite]

Let's hope Trudeau's Libs don't win in October. If they do, this country will continue its steep downward spiral. Investors are fleeing (see link 1 below) and Canadians are increasingly pessimistic about the future (see link 2 below). Given the Lib record, the prospect of a CPC government should be the least of a rational voter's worries.

https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/look-how-much-foreign-investment-has-fled-canada-since-the-liberals-took-over

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/canadians-appear-pessimistic-about-their-economic-futures-poll-suggests/article36526629/

 

[Dougie93]

The country will continue on the same downward spiral under the PhonyCons, at best they would make tiny tweaks at the margins, but otherwise they will basically adopt the Liberal policies as their own, as per usual.

[Zeitgeist]

More sky is falling paranoia.  Canada is thriving. Appreciate and protect it, Liberal or Conservative. 

[Dougie93]

I don't assert that Globalism is the skyfall, I embrace globalized free and unrestricted trade at a level far more intense than the NeoLiberals do, protectionism is a fool's errand.  The NeoLiberals don't actually have the courage of their convictions.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Dougie93

[montgomery]

11 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Well, Trump is a product of the Iraq War quagmire followed the 2008 financial crisis backlash, but neither was catastrophic enough to incite full on fascism, Trump himself is not a fascist, New York liberal political opportunist riding the wave of discontent into office, and the fascists in the US who I've spoken to online  say  Trump is obviously not a fascist nor do they expect him to be a fascist, they just voted for him in the hopes he would curtail immigration. Mind you, plenty of non fascists I've spoken to have expressed the same desire to curtail immigration, curtailing immigration is certainly not a desire which is limited to the fascists.

Trump is a product of the Iraq war quagmire?? What on earth could you be on about now?

And so pray tell who have you spoken to in the US who claim to be fascists, and more outspoken ones than Trump. Jeeeez Dougie!

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

More sky is falling paranoia.  Canada is thriving. Appreciate and protect it, Liberal or Conservative. 

I appreciate Canada under the steady hand of the Liberals and Justin Trudeau. I greatly fear for our democracy and our socially responsible capitalist system if the CPC ever gained power. And one of my main points is that they will have the momentum gained to destroy Canada, due to the Trump influence. 

The Cons could have us declaring bankrupcy within a couple of years if they were given the opportunity to destroy our health care system. They hate it and they see huge profit potential in copying the US corruption in health care.

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, montgomery said:

Trump is a product of the Iraq war quagmire?? What on earth could you be on about now?

 

The Iraq War debacle was the point where the NeoCons discredited themselves opening the way for the populist take over of the GOP,  which was then intensified by the fallout of the 2008 financial crisis.

[montgomery]

5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I don't assert that Globalism is the skyfall, I embrace globalized free and unrestricted trade at a level far more intense than the NeoLiberals do, protectionism is a fool's errand.

Unrestricted trade. Con code words for 'right to work' laws and outlawing unions and fair wages. 

Cons aren't aware of their own greed even enough to disguise their motives. No minimum wage laws too. Say it ain't so.

In other words, forcing the corruption of the US southern states onto Canadians.

Edited January 8, 2019 by montgomery

[Dougie93]

You yip-yap a lot about fascists, but you don't seem to understand where they come from; catastrophic defeat of Italy and Germany in the First World War, followed by the Great Depression, fasicsm is largely about national humiliation, the Jewish-Bolshevik Conspiracy comes in the wake.

[turningrite]

12 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

More sky is falling paranoia.  Canada is thriving. Appreciate and protect it, Liberal or Conservative. 

The stats provide a different picture. Since adopting a globalist agenda, including high immigration, about three decades ago, Canada's prosperity relative to other countries, including other Western democracies, has declined significantly. And as an article I posted in a prior entry in the string notes, polling indicates that Canadians are increasingly pessimistic about their economic futures. And investors and business are pessimistic as well, as indicated by an article in a manufacturing trade publication (link below). I believe this country is on the verge of a potentially catastrophic fall.

https://www.plant.ca/insights/171911/

Edited January 8, 2019 by turningrite

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, montgomery said:

And so pray tell who have you spoken to in the US who claim to be fascists, and more outspoken ones than Trump. Jeeeez Dougie!

As I've said, I've spent a lot of time on American libertarian militant free speecher forums, where they don't restrict anybody from joining nor speaking their minds, so you get the full spectrum, far left through the center to the far right, nobody gets censored nobody gets banned, and there are always a few openly declared fascists around in the mix.

[montgomery]

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

You yip-yap a lot about fascists, but you don't seem to understand where they come from; catastrophic defeat of Italy and Germany in the First World War, followed by the Great Depression, fasicsm is largely about national humiliation, the Jewish-Bolshevik Conspiracy comes in the wake.

Hitler's demonization of the Jewish minority is the pure definition of fascism. 

And for your edification, the WW1 treaty of Versailles was the reason Germany was forced to go to war again. Ask me about it Dougie, it's a great primer for beginners.

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, montgomery said:

Trump is a product of the Iraq war quagmire?? What on earth could you be on about now?

And so pray tell who have you spoken to in the US who claim to be fascists, and more outspoken ones than Trump. Jeeeez Dougie!

I appreciate Canada under the steady hand of the Liberals and Justin Trudeau. I greatly fear for our democracy and our socially responsible capitalist system if the CPC ever gained power. And one of my main points is that they will have the momentum gained to destroy Canada, due to the Trump influence. 

The Cons could have us declaring bankrupcy within a couple of years if they were given the opportunity to destroy our health care system. They hate it and they see huge profit potential in copying the US corruption in health care.

I’ve had misgivings about both parties in the past, but neither party can stray too far from the centre without upsetting the public.  I was worried about Harper, but he ended up governing from the middle and was taken more seriously than Trudeau on the whole. Trudeau is youthful and I think quite sincere, but he’s a bit naive.  His biggest problem is being PM with Trump as president.  Trump seems to have a barely disguised loathing of Trudeau. My issue with Trudeau is that he gets very activist about the wrong causes, like not letting party members vote with their conscience on matters like abortion.  He’s a bit too radical about some of the wrong things.  Fine if you want to be pro choice, but don’t turn it into a dubious moral crusade. He has been mistreated by Trump, who seems quite amoral and has been belligerent to allies.  I think both leaders need to go, but it was much better for Trudeau when Obama was president.  The US was better under Obama. 

[montgomery]

5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

As I've said, I've spent a lot of time on American libertarian militant free speecher forums, where they don't restrict anybody from joining nor speaking their minds, so you get the full spectrum, far left through the center to the far right, nobody gets censored nobody gets banned, and there are always a few openly declared fascists around in the mix.

I really doubt you could tell me something about any forum Dougie. There is no forum where nobody gets banned.I've been a part of the best and the worst since 99. Were you born in 99?

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, montgomery said:

Hitler's demonization of the Jewish minority is the pure definition of fascism. 

And for your edification, the WW1 treaty of Versailles was the reason Germany was forced to go to war again. Ask me about it Dougie, it's a great primer for beginners.

No.  Jews at the time were demonized widely, for example when they tried to flee Nazi Germany to Canada, Liberal Prime Minister MacKenzie-King was asked how many he would accept and he said "one is too many!" and sent them back.   Jews in Canada in the 1930's were basically discriminated against like blacks.    National Socialism is an offshoot of fascism, and the Jewish-Bolshevik Conspiracy is more specific and the central tenet of the faith. 

The Treaty of Versailles is one component of Nazi grievances, but they did not and likely could not have come to power without the total economic collapse of the Wiemar Republic

[Zeitgeist]

9 minutes ago, turningrite said:

The stats provide a different picture. Since adopting a globalist agenda, including high immigration, about three decades ago, Canada's prosperity relative to other countries, including other Western democracies, has declined significantly. And as an article I posted in a prior entry in the string notes, polling indicates that Canadians are increasingly pessimistic about their economic futures. And investors and business are pessimistic as well, as indicated by an article in a manufacturing trade publication (link below). I believe this country is on the verge of a potentially catastrophic fall.

https://www.plant.ca/insights/171911/

Well, unemployment is at historic lows.  Our debt levels are reasonable relative to other G7 countries.  Legitimate immigration is going fine.  The border crossings were troublesome and we need to wind down refugee programs because we have to address third world conditions on some of the reserves.  That’s a big undertaking that requires courageous conversation.  Our headwinds are getting oil to markets and negotiating the surreal vagaries in the US.  The situation with China could go either way, but we’re caught in the middle of Trump’s trade wars. 

[Dougie93]

The origin of modern fascism is not the Nazis, Mussolini came to power in Italy first on 31 October 1922, he was a former socialist who was driven to revanchism by the catastrophic defeat of the Italian army by the Germans at Capporetto  

 

Just FYI

Edited January 8, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

3 hours ago, montgomery said:

Unrestricted trade. Con code words for 'right to work' laws and outlawing unions and fair wages. 

Cons aren't aware of their own greed even enough to disguise their motives. No minimum wage laws too. Say it ain't so.

In other words, forcing the corruption of the US southern states onto Canadians.

Globalization and unionization are not the same issue.  If your country was a massive hegemonic net importer like the United States you might be able to get away with walling yourself off to prop up your unions, but if you're a small export reliant country you'd be cut out of other markets and so your unions would suffer from a lack of work.

Case in point, Canada and the USA, the Americans could crush us by protectionism, whereas we would only crush ourselves by trying that back at them and they wouldn't even notice.

In terms of right to work and outlawing unions, I embrace freedom of association, but that cuts both ways, right to work; okay, freedom not to associate, outlaw unions, not okay, freedom to associate.

Bear in mind tho, the doom of industrial unions is not globalization but rather automation and there's nothing they can do to stop it,  and decentralized Information Age workers will not be susceptible to enforced unionization.  So unions better figure out how to deal with selling their memberships to employees, because right to work is gonna be de facto even if not de jure.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

....  Fine if you want to be pro choice, but don’t turn it into a dubious moral crusade. He has been mistreated by Trump, who seems quite amoral and has been belligerent to allies.  I think both leaders need to go, but it was much better for Trudeau when Obama was president.  The US was better under Obama. 

 

Several Canadian PMs have been "mistreated" by American presidents, including Obama ("Buy American", Keystone XL pipeline, Omar Khadr,  extreme vetting (CAARP), and deportations).   This has long been the historical relationship with the superpower to the south.

Canadian media likes to use the term "harmonizing" when trying to describe Canadian attempts to get along as best it can for economic reasons, and this tension will not be escaped by Justin Trudeau.   NAFTA 2.0 negotiations laid bare any notion of leverage for Trudeau's "feminist agenda" and virtue signaling, also rejected by Mexico.

Trudeau's main problem is that he is now perceived as being incapable of rising to the level of past PMs for U.S. relations and difficult presidents, as well as several failed domestic "files" save for the legalization of cannabis (pipeline fiascos, "irregular" border crossings, tariffs, USMCA, replacement "jets", abortion pledges,  etc.).    There is much for a competent CPC election campaign to capitalize on, but perhaps the best strategy is to give Trudeau even more rope to politically hang himself.

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Several Canadian PMs have been "mistreated" by American presidents

The best one was when Lester Pearson went down to Washington and gave a speech in opposition to the Vietnam War and after at the WH,  Lyndon Johnson grabbed him and picked him up by the lapels saying "Don't come down here and piss on my rug!"  lol

[Zeitgeist]

5 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Several Canadian PMs have been "mistreated" by American presidents, including Obama ("Buy American", Keystone XL pipeline, Omar Khadr,  extreme vetting (CAARP), and deportations).   This has long been the historical relationship with the superpower to the south.

Canadian media likes to use the term "harmonizing" when trying to describe Canadian attempts to get along as best it can for economic reasons, and this tension will not be escaped by Justin Trudeau.   NAFTA 2.0 negotiations laid bare any notion of leverage for Trudeau's "feminist agenda" and virtue signaling, also rejected by Mexico.

Trudeau's main problem is that he is now perceived as being incapable of rising to the level of past PMs for U.S. relations and difficult presidents, as well as several failed domestic "files" save for the legalization of cannabis (pipeline fiascos, "irregular" border crossings, tariffs, USMCA, replacement "jets", abortion pledges,  etc.).    There is much for a competent CPC election campaign to capitalize on, but perhaps the best strategy is to give Trudeau even more rope to politically hang himself.

I don’t disagree with much of what you are saying here.  Trudeau isn’t as strong as his dad, who was better able to capitalize on such tensions for political gain. However, there would be far fewer Canada-US tensions with a different president in office.  We’ve had good relations before between conservative presidents and liberal PM’s or vice versa.  I understand what Trump is trying to do standing up for American interests, but his damage to foreign relations is really a bridge too far.  Not even the US can go it alone. I get the whole tradition of isolationism, but the US will have to manage a rising China, an expansive Russia, continued challenges with supporting a restless demographic that may not have decent jobs due to automation and offshoring, climate/political mass migrations, etc.  Coordinated approaches with other countries can only help. 

Edited January 8, 2019 by Zeitgeist