Christian Left exists in Liberal Party

[Canuck E Stan]

Why is the Liberal left fearmongering about the Conservative Christians when they themselves have MP's who are Christians.Is this just a tact to get people to vote for Liberals, or is there a difference between the two groups?

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...84044522390_55/?

[I miss Reagan]

The silence from the left is deafening. So much for Sweal's theory on one party attracting all the Christians .

[Black Dog]

Just to be clear, Liberal != leftist.

As far as I'm concerened, there's no real difference beteween the Liberals and the Conservatives, so this really isn't much a of a shock. That there are reactionaries in the Liberal caucus just isn't news.

Finally, some interesting facts and figures:

-The percentage of Christians is in rapid decline in Canada, dropping at 0.9 percentage points per year.

-Non-Christian faith groups are increasing in number and popularity.

-The percentage of Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists, secularists, and persons of no religious adherence is increasing rapidly.

-The Pew Research Center's 2002 study "The Pew Global Attitudes Project" revealed that 30 per cent of Canadians say religion plays a very important role in their lives.

-People who report themselves as Agnostic, Atheist, Humanist, secularist, or simply "no religion " represent the second largest religious group in the country, after Protestant/Catholic

[I miss Reagan]

Just to be clear, Liberal != leftist.

As far as I'm concerened, there's no real difference beteween the Liberals and the Conservatives, so this really isn't much a of a shock.

I don't know Black Dog, I think the ND's on the forum and in Canada in general prefer to keep the Cons under the microscope rather than the Libs. This just might be what you are saying that:

That there are reactionaries in the Liberal caucus just isn't news.

But wait, if I didn't know any better I'd say this was an admission of bias in the Canadian press!? Black Dog?

Finally, some interesting facts and figures:

-The percentage of Christians is in rapid decline in Canada, dropping at 0.9 percentage points per year.

-Non-Christian faith groups are increasing in number and popularity.

-The percentage of Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists, secularists, and persons of no religious adherence is increasing rapidly.

-The Pew Research Center's 2002 study "The Pew Global Attitudes Project" revealed that 30 per cent of Canadians say religion plays a very important role in their lives.

-People who report themselves as Agnostic, Atheist, Humanist, secularist, or simply "no religion " represent the second largest religious group in the country, after Protestant/Catholic

I've heard differing figures, but I think you're correct for the most part.

[kimmy]

Just to be clear, Liberal != leftist.

As far as I'm concerened, there's no real difference beteween the Liberals and the Conservatives, so this really isn't much a of a shock.

I largely agree with you here. Many will passionately disagree.

That there are reactionaries in the Liberal caucus just isn't news.

That, I disagree with. Many on this site (and beyond) believe that the big difference between the LPC and CPC is that the LPC is free of the "scary" elements that are part of the CPC.

-kimmy

[Melanie_]

Why is the Liberal left fearmongering about the Conservative Christians when they themselves have MP's who are Christians.Is this just a tact to get people to vote for Liberals, or is there a difference between the two groups?

Of course there are Christians in the Liberal party. Martin makes no secret of the fact that he attends church every week. No one is expecting politicians to all give up their faith.

What is expected, though, is that they find their own way to maintain their faith as a personal commitment in a secular government. That means that there needs to be rational arguments for the positions they take, not based on religion but based on what is best for society as a whole. Someone who believes strongly that their religion provides the best guideline for society will find a very personal aspect of themselves, their religion, under fire when others disagree.

[Black Dog]

But wait, if I didn't know any better I'd say this was an admission of bias in the Canadian press!? Black Dog?

Actually, that statement meant that its not "news" in the sense that everybody paying attention already knows. Or was I the only one who saw 35 Liberals vote with the Cons against SSM?

[kimmy]

Why is the Liberal left fearmongering about the Conservative Christians when they themselves have MP's who are Christians.Is this just a tact to get people to vote for Liberals, or is there a difference between the two groups?

Of course there are Christians in the Liberal party. Martin makes no secret of the fact that he attends church every week. No one is expecting politicians to all give up their faith.

What is expected, though, is that they find their own way to maintain their faith as a personal commitment in a secular government. That means that there needs to be rational arguments for the positions they take, not based on religion but based on what is best for society as a whole. Someone who believes strongly that their religion provides the best guideline for society will find a very personal aspect of themselves, their religion, under fire when others disagree.

Melanie, the issue wasn't just that party members have their own personal religious beliefs. The issue of Christian *activists* within the Conservative Party has long been something that Liberal boosters have pointed to as "scary", and last week there was quite a lot of discussion about the fact that Christian *activist* groups have been able to help *activist* nominees win Conservative nomination in a number of ridings.

But now, yesterday, a leader of one of these activist groups said that they've been able to help *activist* nominees secure Liberal nomination in a number of ridings too.

You can read about it here,

Canoe article

and you can find some quotes from some of the aforementioned Liberals in the article linked to in the first message in this thread.

-kimmy

[August1991]

But wait, if I didn't know any better I'd say this was an admission of bias in the Canadian press!? Black Dog?

Actually, that statement meant that its not "news" in the sense that everybody paying attention already knows. Or was I the only one who saw 35 Liberals vote with the Cons against SSM?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a good point, BD. Although you're using the SSM issue as a litmus test to decide who is "Christian" and who is "not", and I wonder whether that's a good method.

For some reason, a Christian MP in the Conservative Party is a "scary fanatic" whereas a Christian MP in the Liberal Party is merely "traditional" - or someone who goes to Church regularly. I have a vague suspicion that while O'Brien sat as a Liberal, he was just "firm in his beliefs". Now, as an independent, he'll be a "radical moral values advocate".

I have argued elsewhere that part of this "scary fanatic" label is the perception of Ontario voters for a party that seems to be Western, but perhaps it has some other origin. I have a suspicion that it's the urban chic view of the rural hick.

What is expected, though, is that they find their own way to maintain their faith as a personal commitment in a secular government. That means that there needs to be rational arguments for the positions they take, not based on religion but based on what is best for society as a whole. Someone who believes strongly that their religion provides the best guideline for society will find a very personal aspect of themselves, their religion, under fire when others disagree.

Melanie, Harper, of all leaders, seems to use logic in his arguments - perhaps too much so. I have never heard him use any thing but rational arguments to justify his actions. I note Harper in particular because he personally is frequently demonized.

I would hope politicians have some moral principles of some sort. No one gets into politics without a big ego and without the pretention that they have answers to questions. A politician's lot is to come under fire, usually in a very person way.

With all that said, I agree with your idea Melanie. For obvious reasons, explicit references to religion have always been a problem in Canadian politics and in general, things work better when they are left out.

[The Terrible Sweal]

Why is the Liberal left fearmongering about the Conservative Christians when they themselves have MP's who are Christians.

Because the issue has nothing to do with whether you 'have Christians'. It is whether you are a party 'of dogmatic Christian intent'.

Probably the CPC isn't. But why take the chance?

[The Terrible Sweal]

For some reason, a Christian MP in the Conservative Party is a "scary fanatic" whereas a Christian MP in the Liberal Party is merely "traditional" - or someone who goes to Church regularly. 

For some reason.

For a reason.

For the reason that one party is to a much greater extent a match for her intention to implement her religion.

Melanie, Harper, of all leaders, seems to use logic in his arguments - perhaps too much so. I have never heard him use any thing but rational arguments to justify his actions. I note Harper in particular because he personally is frequently demonized.

alrkjgvj o;rsav Sorry, it's hard to type when I'm laughing out loud. What 'rational' argument has he tendered for opposing SSM, pray tell?

[I Miss Trudeau]

Why is the Liberal left fearmongering about the Conservative Christians when they themselves have MP's who are Christians.Is this just a tact to get people to vote for Liberals, or is there a difference between the two groups?

The problem isn't the existence of christian people within either paty. The problem is that christian faith is the platform and vision for Canada of one of the parties. Regardless of whether or not you want to live "Christian ethics," one party is intent on making you do just that.

[Argus]

Just to be clear, Liberal != leftist.

As far as I'm concerened, there's no real difference beteween the Liberals and the Conservatives, so this really isn't much a of a shock. That there are reactionaries in the Liberal caucus just isn't news.

Finally, some interesting facts and figures:

-The percentage of Christians is in rapid decline in Canada, dropping at 0.9 percentage points per year.

-Non-Christian faith groups are increasing in number and popularity. 

-The percentage of Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists, secularists, and persons of no religious adherence is increasing rapidly.

The fastest growing religion in Canada is Islam. My memory is imperfect but I believe it's grown something like twentyfold over the last ten years. The other fast growing religions are Hinduism and Sikhism. By any reasonable appreciation of the term these religions are far, far more intollerent of what they see as immorality, especially sexual immorality than Christianity. Anyone who thinks the shifting religious preferences in this country is going to be a bad thing for social conservatism is whistling in the graveyard.

[kimmy]

The fastest growing religion in Canada is Islam. My memory is imperfect but I believe it's grown something like twentyfold over the last ten years. The other fast growing religions are Hinduism and Sikhism. By any reasonable appreciation of the term these religions are far, far more intollerent of what they see as immorality, especially sexual immorality  than Christianity. Anyone who thinks the shifting religious preferences in this country is going to be a bad thing for social conservatism is whistling in the graveyard.

Greaat

Not good news for us fun-loving liberterian types.

But worse news for the lefty-types, who generally prefer their bogeymen to be of paler pigmentation.

-kimmy

[err]

Just south of us, they have a president who is really religious. The Christian Evangalists visit him in the Whitehouse every Monday. He goes to church every week. He even thinks God talks to him.

His strong religious beliefs make him feel he has to fight "stem cell" research in case even one life is spared for research....

Unless of course they are Muslim... in which case it doesn't appear to matter to him if they die in the tens of thousands at a time....

So is it better to have Christians in power.... or do you have to ask yourself if Bush is a Christian in terms that Jesus would have accepted....

Or our leaders... I think that we have to beware of politicians that hide behind a cross.... to trick the naive... with some phoney sense of morality....

Our politicians should probably concentrate on running the country, its social programs, and its legal system, etc.., and leave religion to the churches.....

[Black Dog]

The fastest growing religion in Canada is Islam. My memory is imperfect but I believe it's grown something like twentyfold over the last ten years. The other fast growing religions are Hinduism and Sikhism. By any reasonable appreciation of the term these religions are far, far more intollerent of what they see as immorality, especially sexual immorality than Christianity. Anyone who thinks the shifting religious preferences in this country is going to be a bad thing for social conservatism is whistling in the graveyard.

Which is all the more reason to shore up the barriers between church (or mosque or temple) and state.

Also: as of 2001, the Muslim, Hindu and Sihk populations made up 3.9 per cent of the population. Of that, we don't how many adhere to social conservative beliefs. The other fast growing group is "no religion".

Let's put it another way: the trend in Canada and the rest of the western world (save the U.S.A.) is away from religion. Even with the growth of some so-con faiths, that prevailing winds are blowing away from religion.

[Argus]

Just south of us, they have a president who is really religious.  The Christian Evangalists visit him in the Whitehouse every Monday.  He goes to church every week.  He even thinks God talks to him.

His strong religious beliefs make him feel he has to fight "stem cell" research in case even one life is spared for research....

I don't think Bush is any more a Christian than Paul Martin. That is, both were baptised, and are formally members of one order or another, but neither pays much attention to the ostensible teachings of their religions. Both seem to use their "religious beliefs" as more of a political tool than anything else. People who have a genuine belief in Christianity and God and an afterlife are seldom as corrupt and openly dishonest as these two.

[mcqueen625]

That, I disagree with. Many on this site (and beyond) believe that the big difference between the LPC and CPC is that the LPC is free of the "scary" elements that are part of the CPC.

Tell me, are you able to predict from one minute to the next waht new scandal or corruption is going to surface regardling the LPC. The only thing predictable about the LPC is that they are willing to do just about anything to hold onto power. As far as the scary part goes that applies for me to the LPC, because there is nothing democratic or law-abiding about their tactics.

My God they have even turned over decision making in this country to a bunch of appointed moronic judges because they don't actually want be held responsible for their decisions. This way they can sit back and say those big bad judges made us do it. Mazrtin has already used that lame argument with regards to same-sex marriages, because he knows that given a choice in a referendum, the majority of the people of Canada would not support this legislation. The reality is that the moronic judiciary was appointed for the most part, by themselves to do thier bidding, independent, my ass, they know who signs their pay-cheque, and who they owe for the appointment.

[mcqueen625]

Let's put it another way: the trend in Canada and the rest of the western world (save the U.S.A.) is away from religion.

THat's so sad for Canada, no wonder our society is doomed to failure. Outright theft along with, lying and corruption are the order of the day in every Provincial Legislature, the House of Commons, and even at the municipal level.

Little wonder that our population is so apathetic and many do not even bother to vote anymore at election-time, why bother? Last I checked there is no spot on the ballot for "None of the above."

Maybe it's time we got back to the basics, and make it possible for ordinary hard-working Canadians to take a run at politics, instead of a bunch of corrupt lawyers, and business people. Right now the ordinary person does not have the financial means to participate even at the municipal level, especially in the urban centres.

[ScottBrison]

It's called seperation of Church and State.

[Netherlands]

Let's put it another way: the trend in Canada and the rest of the western world (save the U.S.A.) is away from religion.

THat's so sad for Canada, no wonder our society is doomed to failure. Outright theft along with, lying and corruption are the order of the day in every Provincial Legislature, the House of Commons, and even at the municipal level.

Little wonder that our population is so apathetic and many do not even bother to vote anymore at election-time, why bother? Last I checked there is no spot on the ballot for "None of the above."

Maybe it's time we got back to the basics, and make it possible for ordinary hard-working Canadians to take a run at politics, instead of a bunch of corrupt lawyers, and business people. Right now the ordinary person does not have the financial means to participate even at the municipal level, especially in the urban centres.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I always think that is foolish to say that people and society are more corrupt/evil because they are not as religious as they once were. That implies that if you are not religious that you are ammoral or immoral, a statement that I don't think is true.

Just as an example, let us look at Canadian politics in the 19th century, a time that I think everyone here would agree was more religious (practically the entire population was Christian, and church attendance was considerably higher than todays). Yet politicians were far more corrupt than they are now - our first PM John A. Macdonald routinely used pork-barrel politics, promoted his friends to high office (like judges) and had to resign when the public learned of a massive funding scandal (the CPR was secretly funnelling huge amounts of money into the Tories election campaigns in return for deals on their railroad contracts). Every election during that period had problems with falsified voters lists, illegal voters, intimidation tactics and other dirty tricks.

At the same time, these politicians were considered to be God-fearing men. Yet they committed acts that they knew were unethical and illegal. Nor did they seem particularly ashamed or sorry for their actions.

The point is that considering oneself religious does not guarantee that the person is also a good, upstanding citizen.