GM packing its bags in Oshawa

[bush_cheney2004]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I hope GM shareholders enjoy tanking profits in Canada.

 

I hope Ontario enjoys more tanking automotive employment because of high labour costs, high energy costs, taxes, and regulation.

 

 

https://lop.parl.ca/sites/PublicWebsite/default/en_CA/ResearchPublications/201553E

 

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

I hope Ontario enjoys more tanking automotive employment because of high labour costs, high energy costs, taxes, and regulation.

 

 

https://lop.parl.ca/sites/PublicWebsite/default/en_CA/ResearchPublications/201553E

 

We don’t need to hear more anti-labour alt right script. Production costs are no higher in Canada when you factor in the exchange rates, lower health care costs, and higher productivity of operations. If you don’t have solutions to protect good jobs and families, your comments have zero value.  You fuel anti-American sentiment then complain about anti-Americanism. 

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

We don’t need to hear more anti-labour alt right script. Production costs are no higher in Canada when you factor in the exchange rates, lower health care costs, and higher productivity of operations. If you don’t have solutions to protect good jobs and families, your comments have zero value.  You fuel anti-American sentiment then complain about anti-Americanism. 

 

Cry me a river....more GM plants have been closed in the U.S. than in Canada.   Production costs in Ontario are higher no matter how much you protest.

My solution is to stop whining about this and move on with the realities of economic factors that need to be changed for more favourable conditions/outcomes.

Hint:   Trudeau's carbon tax is not helping.

 

 

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Cry me a river....more GM plants have been closed in the U.S. than in Canada.   Production costs in Ontario are higher no matter how much you protest.

My solution is to stop whining about this and move on with the realities of economic factors that need to be changed for more favourable conditions/outcomes.

Hint:   Trudeau's carbon tax is not helping.

 

 

Trudeau’s carbon measures won’t help if other developed countries don’t implement similar measures. Basically our policy hands are tied because we can’t afford an uneven business playing field where some countries don’t incur the costs of reducing climate change. We come back to the importance of international rules. On this matter of closing the last auto operations in what was the centre of Canada’s auto production, Oshawa, all levels of government as well as consumers should be hell bent on preventing that loss. 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Trudeau’s carbon measures won’t help if other developed countries don’t implement similar measures. Basically our policy hands are tied because we can’t afford an uneven business playing field where some countries don’t incur the costs of reducing climate change. We come back to the importance of international rules. On this matter of closing the last auto operations in what was the centre of Canada’s auto production, Oshawa, all levels of government as well as consumers should be hell bent on preventing that loss. 

 

Sure....maybe next time don't wait until the plant is closed down.   Unifor got exactly what it had coming to it for the last 20 years.

International rules do not mean that foreign based manufacturers have to stay in Canada to lose their economic asses.

Still waiting for a Canadian owned car/truck make to build an assembly plant in the U.S.

[Zeitgeist]

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Sure....maybe next time don't wait until the plant is closed down.   Unifor got exactly what it had coming to it for the last 20 years.

International rules do not mean that foreign based manufacturers have to stay in Canada to lose their economic asses.

Still waiting for a Canadian owned car/truck make to build an assembly plant in the U.S.

GM is internationally owned. Most of its oldest operations were in the US AND Canada.  Now many of its operations are in Europe and Asia. That’s fine if consumers in those countries are buying roughly what they produce in numbers, but we are buying more than we produce and you think we should produce even fewer autos?  NOT FAIR!  Our factories are highly productive.  If you think it’s fine for the companies that sell into your market not to do any production in that market, then don’t complain about the total offshoring of your manufacturing.  We’re not talking dollar store trinkets here.  These are the highest tech, largest scale production lines of the economy.  Let them die at your peril. 

[bush_cheney2004]

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

GM is internationally owned. Most of its oldest operations were in the US AND Canada.  Now many of its operations are in Europe and Asia. That’s fine if consumers in those countries are buying roughly what they produce in numbers, but we are buying more than we produce and you think we should produce even fewer autos?  NOT FAIR!  Our factories are highly productive.

 

Life is not fair....get over it.    It is international car makers that have made most of the capital investment in Canada and in the supply chains that support Canadian production and export market.   What they giveth..they can also taketh away.

 

Quote

 If you think it’s fine for the companies that sell into your market not to do any production in that market, then don’t complain about the total offshoring of your manufacturing.  We’re not talking dollar store trinkets here.  These are the highest tech, largest scale production lines of the economy.  Let them die at your peril. 

 

They don't die...they just morph to meet changing economic conditions.   The best selling vehicle in Canada is the Ford F-150 pickup truck, not Cadillacs.

Where is Canada's Tesla ?   Where is Canada's Bolt ?    Where does Canada lead in automotive innovation ?

[Argus]

51 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

We don’t need to hear more anti-labour alt right script. Production costs are no higher in Canada when you factor in the exchange rates, lower health care costs, and higher productivity of operations. If you don’t have solutions to protect good jobs and families, your comments have zero value.  You fuel anti-American sentiment then complain about anti-Americanism. 

You do realize that's the only reason he comes here, right? To taunt Canadians and make them mad. Explore the utility of your ignore file. It was made for trolls.

[Argus]

3 hours ago, scribblet said:

It's also worth remembering that in March the Liberals quietly forgave all outstanding loans to GM and Chrysler, likely worth billions of dollars.

It's more about this.

Wall Street has embraced the idea that companies exist solely to serve the holders of their stock. Under this way of thinking, managers of companies should focus their actions on driving short-term value for their shareholders, and should pay far less (or no) regard to other constituents who may have a stake in the business, such as employees, customers, or members of the community. Shaich partly blames activist hedge funds, many of which buy shares in companies with the aim of pushing their management to make decisions that drive their stock prices up within a few months. According to Shaich, this makes it more difficult to invest in long-term projects, and create sustainable jobs.

https://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/the-founder-of-panera-bread-explains-the-economic-forces-that-led-to-trump

[bush_cheney2004]

Why so much more whining for Oshawa compared to Alberta's much larger challenges in the oil sector ?

Magna is closing a casting plant in Perth....380 jobs gone....where was the outrage ?

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/magna-international-to-close-perths-grenville-castings-plant-380-jobs-affected

[GostHacked]

58 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You fuel anti-American sentiment then complain about anti-Americanism. 

Some might call that ..  trolling? Nah that never happens here.

[Zeitgeist]

30 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Life is not fair....get over it.    It is international car makers that have made most of the capital investment in Canada and in the supply chains that support Canadian production and export market.   What they giveth..they can also taketh away.

 

 

They don't die...they just morph to meet changing economic conditions.   The best selling vehicle in Canada is the Ford F-150 pickup truck, not Cadillacs.

Where is Canada's Tesla ?   Where is Canada's Bolt ?    Where does Canada lead in automotive innovation ?

Consumers financed those factories. The rest is funny money.  If an auto producer likes selling lots of cars in a country, it better also like making cars there.  We don’t have to buy their cars. Canadians, both consumers and investors, are no less invested in the auto industry than Americans are. 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Consumers financed those factories. The rest is funny money.  If an auto producer likes selling lots of cars in a country, it better also like making cars there.  We don’t have to buy their cars. Canadians, both consumers and investors, are no less invested in the auto industry than Americans are. 

 

Americans lose auto plants far more often....as was the case in this latest GM decision (4 plants closed). 

Ironically, initial American investment in the Canadian auto sector was driven by favourable tariff treatment for Commonwealth produced cars for export.

Americans are not buying the Oshawa plant products in great numbers, and neither are Canadians.   So please tell me again why it should remain open ?

Why do some Canadians think Oshawa is so special ?

 

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada exports more automotive products to the U.S. than it imports...according to Stratfor.   Canadian and Mexican automotive production is far more dependent on the U.S. export market.

 

https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/how-trumps-tariffs-would-disrupt-north-american-auto-industry

[Zeitgeist]

18 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canada exports more automotive products to the U.S. than it imports...according to Stratfor.   Canadian and Mexican automotive production is far more dependent on the U.S. export market.

 

https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/how-trumps-tariffs-would-disrupt-north-american-auto-industry

We went through this in the summer. I provided much evidence indicating that Americans export more autos into Canada than the reverse.  I don’t have time to tredge that up right now.  

[Zeitgeist]

22 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Americans lose auto plants far more often....as was the case in this latest GM decision (4 plants closed). 

Ironically, initial American investment in the Canadian auto sector was driven by favourable tariff treatment for Commonwealth produced cars for export.

Americans are not buying the Oshawa plant products in great numbers, and neither are Canadians.   So please tell me again why it should remain open ?

Why do some Canadians think Oshawa is so special ?

 

Oshawa was a kind of early 20th century Silicon Valley.  We won’t just sweep it away. The infrastructure investments were significant.  Also, I agree with you about the products, so time to retool.  This happens all the time.  

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

We went through this in the summer. I provided much evidence indicating that Americans export more autos into Canada than the reverse.  I don’t have time to tredge that up right now.  

 

Sorry (not sorry)...the above is evidence otherwise...current though 2017.

85% of Canadian production is exported to the USA....I am confident in saying that 85% of U.S. production is not exported to Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Oshawa was a kind of early 20th century Silicon Valley.  We won’t just sweep it away. The infrastructure investments were significant.  Also, I agree with you about the products, so time to retool.  This happens all the time.  

 

Lots of places made carriages and transitioned to automobiles in the early 20th century...most are long gone...nothing special about Oshawa.

[Zeitgeist]

43 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Sorry (not sorry)...the above is evidence otherwise...current though 2017.

85% of Canadian production is exported to the USA....I am confident in saying that 85% of U.S. production is not exported to Canada.

Stop. We buy more US made cars than the the US buys Canadian cars.  This is an old conversation. 

[GostHacked]

This in no way hurts GM at all.  GM makes money off of financing loans to people to buy their cars.  The financing is worth way much more than the vehicle itself. This will take down a town's economy. We saw how that worked out for Detroit.

Edited November 27, 2018 by GostHacked

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Stop. We buy more US made cars than the the US buys Canadian cars.  This is an old conversation. 

 

It's more than just cars...automotive is a sector that includes supply chain parts and unfinished goods.

I have provided a cite that challenges your questionable claim now and before.

If Canadian plants cannot compete at the bottom line, then they should be closed, same as any other plant.   Nothing special about Oshawa.

Sticking it to Unifor is just icing on the cake.

Edited November 27, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Lots of places made carriages and transitioned to automobiles in the early 20th century...most are long gone...nothing special about Oshawa.

Do you care about people?  Nothing special about Detroit and Silicon Valley.  Zhejiang and Puebla can make the cars and computers.

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Do you care about people?  Nothing special about Detroit and Silicon Valley.  Zhejiang and Puebla can make the cars and computers.

 

The best thing for people is to move on with their lives and stop living in the past.  GM fulfilled their loan obligations through 2016 and beyond.

These are not the first employees (union or otherwise) to lose their jobs because of a plant closing...been there...done that.

Edited November 27, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

16 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The best thing for people is to move on with their lives and stop living in the past.  GM fulfilled their loan obligations through 2016 and beyond.

These are not the first employees (union or otherwise) to lose their jobs because of a plant closing.

I think that's a fair assessment for companies that didn't receive government support.  GM is far too wrapped up in government aid and trade deals.  It received too much help and has benefitted far too greatly from the systems of highways, the closures of passenger rail lines, and land use planning that favoured private auto use to simply fold up operations that are central to a region's economy.  GM has responsibility here.  It would be different if GM was unprofitable or if sales plummeted in Canada.  The opposite is true.  GM corporate should be put on the hot seat and class action lawsuits should be launched demanding that the real costs to taxpayers of maintaining these operations be recouped.   USMCA recognized that we are into supply management of the auto sector in North America, as demonstrated by the quotas that the US demanded.  As soon as the US set limits on how much production could be shipped beyond the borders, a standard was set.  Closing plants is a way of cheating that system, since you can bet that new plants will reappear in lower cost jurisdictions to replace them.  This is how the middle class is being undermined.  Unless the precedent is set of blocking such actions, there will always be a lower cost jurisdiction where production can be shifted.  Of course it won't look like that.  GM will wait until it can elude the public radar.  That's why I think the public and governments should pressure GM.  Oshawa can be retooled.  No need to let this company which has benefitted so much from government bailouts turn on the country that supported it.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

I think that's a fair assessment for companies that didn't receive government support.  GM is far too wrapped up in government aid and trade deals.  It received too much help and has benefitted far too greatly from the systems of highways, the closures of passenger rail lines, and land use planning that favoured private auto use to simply fold up operations that are central to a region's economy.  GM has responsibility here.  It would be different if GM was unprofitable or if sales plummeted in Canada.  The opposite is true.  GM corporate should be put on the hot seat, class action lawsuits should be launched demanding that the real costs to taxpayers of maintaining these operations be recouped.  

 

Go for it....GM doesn't care.   The past is the past, and GM is worried about the future.   Oshawa accounts for only 6% of Canadian automotive manufacturing, making vehicles that even Canadians don't want to buy.   Other plants will survive or close based on prevailing conditions, not some sentimental obligation to Canadian taxpayers and poor choices made by the governments in power.

What is so special about this single plant ?    Is Oshawa a northern paradise ?

 

Quote

USMCA recognized that we are into supply management of the auto sector in North America, as demonstrated by the quotas that the US demanded.  As soon as the US set limits on how much production could be shipped beyond the borders, a standard was set.  Closing plants is a way of cheating that system, since you can bet that new plants will reappear in lower cost jurisdictions to replace them.  This is how the middle class is being undermined.  Unless the precedent is set of blocking such actions, there will always be a lower cost jurisdiction where production can be shifted.  Of course it won't look like that.  GM will wait until it can elude the public radar.  That's why I think the public and governments should pressure GM.  Oshawa can be retooled.  No need to let this company which has benefitted so much from government bailouts turn on the country that supported it. 

 

The best idea I read so far and very consistent with Trudeau/Liberal Party priorities is to retool for a massive cannabis grow op in the abandoned Oshawa plant.  Plenty of power for lighting !!

The big U.S. automotive milk cow for Canada and Mexico has changed forever....better roll with the punches.