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Posted
Questions Grow Over Shooting Incident as Italian Reporter Returns Home

By The Associated Press

Published: March 05, 2005 10:00 AM ET

ROME Draped in a blanket and apparently hooked up to an intravenous drip, former hostage Giuliana Sgrena was carried off a plane upon returning from Iraq on Saturday, hours after American troops fired on the car taking her to Baghdad's airport, wounding her and killing the Italian intelligence officer protecting her.

[snip]

Scolari also said the shootout took place 700 meters from the airport, after they had already passed other road blocks. At a press conference he said: "Giuliana and the other people who were there told me that the American attack was completely unjustified. They had alerted the whole chain of command, the Italian troops were awaiting them at the airport. And yet, they fired 300, 400 rounds.

http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/articl...t_id=1000827944

So...the obvious questions referred to are:

1. If the chain of command was notified they were coming, why did this roadblock not know it.

2. If they had already passed other roadblock(s) then why did this roadblock not know it.

3. Why do American roadblocks seem to have such a hard time communicating the concept of "STOP"? According to the reports, they flashed a white light on and off. Is that the universal sign for stop? Can it be done better than that, which would save innocent civilian AND American soldiers?

Posted

seems to me that a few of the soldiers may have been a little extra jumpy.

I think that the shooting is going to have a large and lasting effect however on the Italian contribution to the Iraq Situation.

"They muddy the water, to make it seem deep." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Posted

I feel sorry for that Italian journalist, but anyone stupid enough to put themselves in harm's way deserves what happens to them. How many times have cars approached check-points, only to have them blow up and kill soldiers and many times innocent civilians.

I have no sympathy for civilian reporters who go to areas of conflict and somehow think that they should be invulnerable, or be afforded special treatment. I was not there but if I were one of those soldiers, I would treat any vehicle approaching a check-point with suspicion and caution, and yes fire on that vehicle and ask questions later.

If anyone here is naive enough to believe that our own soldier's were carrying unloaded weapons during the FLQ Crisis in Quebec, they are sadly mistaken. I have a close friend who was there and he told me that he as well as many other Canadian soldiers had they weapons loaded and at the ready. Fortunately no civilians were shot, but it very well could have happened.

Posted
How many times have cars approached check-points, only to have them blow up and kill soldiers and many times innocent civilians.

That is true, but it's not really the issue here.

I don't think anyone has any problem with strict and cautious rules of engagement.

The questions still remain though...what exactly happened in this situation. Was there any warning...was there even a checkpoint. Was the vehicle "speeding" or not.

I was not there but if I were one of those soldiers,  I would treat any vehicle approaching a check-point with suspicion and caution, and yes fire on that vehicle and ask questions later.

Yes, obviously. And hopefully your checkpoint would be visible and obvious and you would make an effort to warn the vehicle before it got to close. That's what an investigation will focus on.

If anyone here is naive enough to believe that our own soldier's were carrying unloaded weapons during the FLQ Crisis in Quebec, they are sadly mistaken.

Quebec....Iraq..... :huh:

I'm not following you on this one. Are you suggesting that some people want US soldiers in Iraq not to have loaded guns? :unsure:

Posted

I feel sorry for that Italian journalist, but anyone stupid enough to put themselves in harm's way deserves what happens to them. How many times have cars approached check-points, only to have them blow up and kill soldiers and many times innocent civilians.q

That is a poor excuse for randomly shooting anyone. Reports are the car was NOT speeding.

As for anyone "stupid enough to put themselves in harms way; that fit s the American soldiers much more so than a journalist. That was a dumb senseless remark.

Posted
If anyone here is naive enough to believe that our own soldier's were carrying unloaded weapons during the FLQ Crisis in Quebec, they are sadly mistaken. I have a close friend who was there and he told me that he as well as many other Canadian soldiers had they weapons loaded and at the ready. Fortunately no civilians were shot, but it very well could have happened.
What has one thing to do with another. Soldiers and/or police should and do have guns; The concern is that they use them intelligently and not sshoot anything that moves. The USA has more so called "friendly fire" incidents than any other nation.

They didn't shoot to disable the vehicle before it got too close; they shot the occupants. Many Iraqi citizens have suffered the same fate.

Now the Bulgarians believe that one of their soldiers has been killed by the Americans in a frindly fire incident. Remember our own soldiers in Afghanistan and their senseless deaths.

Posted

Americans are trigger happy over there, the soldiers themselves say, to keep them safe, they shoot first and ask questions later. They make no apologies for it.

Too many deaths have happened over there because of the penchant for immediate and over reactions. Not that I blame them exactly, if it were me I could very well be the same. However, this has not made them friends and friends are something they need desperately, if they are to succeed with securing Iraq enough to get out (if indeed that is their intention).

I don't believe the American version. They have given us too many incidents and evidences of half truths and mistruths. But it could be the Italians are over reacting to, as is understandable. Like most things, I imagine the truth lies somewhere inbetwen the two versions.

Posted

Interesting angle to this story: Italy is in national mourning over the death of Nicola Calipari. His body lay in state at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Rome, where thousands of visitors paid their respects, and he was buried in astate funeral on Monday. President Carlo Azeglio Ciampi said he would award Calipari, a married father of two, the gold medal of valor for his heroism.

Contrast that with the total silence from the American media and politial establishment on the thousands of Americans killed or maimed in Iraq, including the Pentagon ban on photos of coffins coming home. Bush can't even be bothered to attend any of the funerals.

"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit

Posted

I think this accurately portrays how the situation is being dealt with in the US, its typical sadly. Very much the same as the friendly fire incident with the 4 Canadians..

In any case, she's now blaming the Americans for shooting up her car which tried to speed through a checkpoint.

I'm blaming her for thinking she could wander around Iraq unharmed because she is a sympathizer with the insurgents, then for getting herself snatched, then for getting the prime minister to put up his own money, which led to the death of one of the Italian intelligence agents who came to save her sorry rear end.

She's right — it is disgusting. I am disgusted with her.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149682,00.html

Its not ever the Americans fault...ever.

"They muddy the water, to make it seem deep." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Posted

Outrage as US soldiers kill hostage rescue hero

The US Army claimed the Italians' vehicle had been seen as a threat because it was travelling at speed and failed to stop at the checkpoint despite warning shots being fired by the soldiers. A State Department official in Washington said the Italians had failed to inform the military of Sgrena's release.

Italian reconstruction of the incident is significantly different. Sgrena told colleagues the vehicle was not travelling fast and had already passed several checkpoints on its way to the airport. The Americans shone a flashlight at the car and then fired between 300 and 400 bullets at if from an armoured vehicle. Rather than calling immediately for assistance for the wounded Italians, the soldiers' first move was to confiscate their weapons and mobile phones and they were prevented from resuming contact with Rome for more than an hour.

Enzo Bianco, the opposition head of the parliamentary committee that oversees Italy's secret services, described the American account as unbelievable. 'They talk of a car travelling at high speed, and that is not possible because there was heavy rain in Baghdad and you can't travel at speed on that road,' Bianco said. 'They speak of an order to stop, but we're not sure that happened.'

Pier Scolari, Sgrena's partner who flew to Baghdad to collect her, put an even more sinister construction on the events, suggesting in a television interview that Sgrena was the victim of a deliberate ambush. 'Giuliana may have received information which led to the soldiers not wanting her to leave Iraq alive,' he claimed.

Sgrena, you'll recall, was kidnapped from Fallujah, where she was interviewing refugees from the American assault on the city.

"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit

Posted

The latest on this:

The Italians have said (actual Italian government officials)

that the speed was low, that the light was shined on them and firing began right away. They also say US officials responsible for the airport were notified.

There is a joint investigation planned. The US will also review checkpoint policy.

Posted
In any case, she's now blaming the Americans for shooting up her car which tried to speed through a checkpoint.

I'm blaming her for thinking she could wander around Iraq unharmed because she is a sympathizer with the insurgents, then for getting herself snatched, then for getting the prime minister to put up his own money, which led to the death of one of the Italian intelligence agents who came to save her sorry rear end.

She's right — it is disgusting. I am disgusted with her.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149682,00.html

As an aside, that is easily the most asinine "commentary" I have ever had the displeasure of reading.

Feminism.. the new face of female oppression!

Posted
In any case, she's now blaming the Americans for shooting up her car which tried to speed through a checkpoint.

I'm blaming her for thinking she could wander around Iraq unharmed because she is a sympathizer with the insurgents, then for getting herself snatched, then for getting the prime minister to put up his own money, which led to the death of one of the Italian intelligence agents who came to save her sorry rear end.

She's right — it is disgusting. I am disgusted with her.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149682,00.html

As an aside, that is easily the most asinine "commentary" I have ever had the displeasure of reading.

You just wan to blind yourself to the reality.

Her finger was clearly on the very trigger that shot her.

:P

Posted
Her finger was clearly on the very trigger that shot her.

Balonie. The Americans have proven themselves trigger happy over and again throughout their wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Why are some people always so sure that the American's are always right, always on the up-and-up when history has proven otherwise?

FOX is a scumbag wannabe news station at best. Why anyone with a mind of their own would believe what they spew is beyond anyone that uses their own brain cells.

Posted

what can you say to something like this? my deepest regrets to that family of italian. what can i say or do it this situation as an American, not a whole lot, just grit my teeth and say dont give up on us yet. I believe journalist should be allowed into combat zones. I think its important for the world to know what is going on. i would want to know that our country was setting up interment camps or executing prisoners so i could immediatley vote out whoever was in office on the next election. with that being said, when you enter into a dangerous area such as that, you do take risk, and in that risk you have to know that war is an indiscriminate killer.

Posted
that war is an indiscriminate killer.
especially with the American bunch. They are a bunch of scared kids; some are barely home and returned again to this frightening situation. All the high ranking military people are sitting safe and sound in the USA; I would bet.
Posted
errr... motives.

Yep, none that I am aware of anyways. I think it was just another eff up, something like what happened to the Canadians. More collateral damage. Only 100,000 and counting, but what they hell eh? Gotta get the job done. The end justifies the means.

Hidey ho... onward we go.

Posted
It's easy to blame everything on the US, as the AL Quaida is a mindless organization with no agenda of it's own, and can hardly be held accountable for any of it's actions...

Because the Italians paid a ransom for her release; the USA government does not want anyone negotiating successfully with the terrorists.

Personally, I think it was just another " shoot first ask questions later" scared kids/ cowboy actions.

Posted
The man driving the car carrying communist writer and newly released terrorist hostage Guiliana Sgrena didn't slow down as he approached a roadblock on the way to the airport. Perhaps he was afraid and fear led to speed. Perhaps he was laughing.

    Miss Sgrena wrote that her car "kept on the road, going under an underpass full of puddles and almost losing control to avoid them. We all incredibly laughed. It was liberating. Losing control of the car in a street full of water in Baghdad."

My Webpage

The Car was speeding, as is every veh over there makes it harder to get shot at....they failed to slow down and stop at the check piont and they paid the price ....Most of you are forgetting this is a war zone not down town toronto at some drunk driving check piont......there are Insurgents that will gladly give up thier lives to kill any coalition soldiers....there are strict ROE (rules of engagement) they were followed as best they could ....

We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.

Posted

How do you know for sure? What we have is the word of the Americans (in who's best interest it is to portray this as an acident and not negligence) and the Italians.

Certainly, mistakes and accidents happen in a war zone, but to me, the whole "scared soldiers with their lives on the line with a split second to act" is a convienient, catch all excuse for trigger happy grunts.

"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit

Posted

Black dog:

How do you know for sure? What we have is the word of the Americans (in who's best interest it is to portray this as an acident and not negligence) and the Italians.

We don' know anything for sure as none of us were there. nor are any of us privy to any of the evidence , but that does not stop any of us from forming opinoins....alot of opinions here on this board are very bias towards anything american...and assume that any US servicemen involved in any action is guilty as charged ....

Certainly, mistakes and accidents happen in a war zone, but to me, the whole "scared soldiers with their lives on the line with a split second to act" is a convienient, catch all excuse for trigger happy grunts.

Mistakes and accidents in a war zone happen every day. they are regrettable most are due to stupid reasons , "they failed to slow down"," the driver did not see the road block"....i ensure you that these road blocks are clearly marked.....everyone in Iraq knows by now what to do when encountering a road block...the Iraqis know US ROE just as well as the US service persons do....

In war you break the rules you pay with your life...it is that simple ....and it all happens in split seconds...

We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.

Posted
We don' know anything for sure as none of us were there. nor are any of us privy to any of the evidence , but that does not stop any of us from forming opinoins....alot of opinions here on this board are very bias towards anything american...and assume that any US servicemen involved in any action is guilty as charged ....

Well, we have a litany of U.S. "mistakes" to base such conclusions upon.

Mistakes and accidents in a war zone happen every day. they are regrettable most are due to stupid reasons , "they failed to slow down"," the driver did not see the road block"....i ensure you that these road blocks are clearly marked.....everyone in Iraq knows by now what to do when encountering a road block...the Iraqis know US ROE just as well as the US service persons do....

It doesn't appear that we are talking about a roadbock with a big gate and guardhouse. It's unclear as to whether it was a checkpoint or a patrol that shot up the car (apparently, it's common practice to park a Humvee across the road and hey presto! instant checkpoint).

The checkpoints.

As an American journalist here, I have been through many checkpoints and have come close to being shot at several times myself. I look vaguely Middle Eastern, which perhaps makes my checkpoint experience a little closer to that of the typical Iraqi. Here's what it's like.

You're driving along and you see a couple of soldiers standing by the side of the road - but that's a pretty ubiquitous sight in Baghdad, so you don't think anything of it. Next thing you know, soldiers are screaming at you, pointing their rifles and swiveling tank guns in your direction, and you didn't even know it was a checkpoint.

If it's confusing for me - and I'm an American - what is it like for Iraqis who don't speak English?

In situations like this, I've often had Iraqi drivers who step on the gas. It's a natural reaction: Angry soldiers are screaming at you in a language you don't understand, and you think they're saying "get out of here," and you're terrified to boot, so you try to drive your way out.

Another problem is that the US troops tend to have two-stage checkpoints. First there's a knot of Iraqi security forces standing by a sign that says, in Arabic and English, "Stop or you will be shot." Most of the time, the Iraqis will casually wave you through.

Your driver, who slowed down for the checkpoint, will accelerate to resume his normal speed. What he doesn't realize is that there's another, American checkpoint several hundred yards past the Iraqi checkpoint, and he's speeding toward it. Sometimes, he may even think that being waved through the first checkpoint means he's exempt from the second one (especially if he's not familiar with American checkpoint routines).

We do know they cleared several checkpoints just prior to the incident.

By the way, if "everybody knows" about the ROE, then why does this stuff keep happening? I mean, if you were a suicide bombe rand you came onto a checkpoint when you know such things tend to result in bullet-riddled cars, would you hit the gas or drive up to the checkpoint all nice and then BOOM!?

In war you break the rules you pay with your life...it is that simple ....and it all happens in split seconds...

Actually, its mostly Iraqis who are paying for their lives.

"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." - Francis M. Wilhoit

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