Ottawa's secret consultations on racism

[Rue]

7 hours ago, GostHacked said:

What are the other things the government is not telling us about?  Are people that naive to think that is the only thing they are keeping quiet about?

If you are waiting for the government to tell you "things" you need to get a life. You might also want to get up off your naïve buttocks and do your own searching for answers.

Waiting for the government to explain to you things is no different then having a schizophrenic do the same.  You are sadly mistaken if you think you can find out anything unless you share the same delusions or medication which no doubt you do when it comes to Eye or Justin.

 

[Rue]

19 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

The thing that bugged me when I read the thread is that nobody knows what the government is doing, but they know damn well they're against it.  And based on the government's reputation, I can see why but still... why not wait until it comes out what they're doing ?  Yes, they shouldn't have secret consultations, but presumably it will come out at some point.

And - out of curiosity - is there any government survey on racism, any consultation that you would be ok with ?  I mean, there are signs that it's a problem right ?  And governments are supposed to solve problems.  

If you accept that the government has the right and power to act in this area, I will accept your criticism of how they're doing it.  And we can start with their furtive fact-gathering as complaint #1.

When someone picks their nose whether they do it with a finger, knife, toothpick, cue tip, their friend's finger, I don't care -it still produces snot. The rest was pretty much the same as the first sentence so let me leave it at the word snot.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Rue

[Michael Hardner]

8 hours ago, GostHacked said:

What are the other things the government is not telling us about?  Are people that naive to think that is the only thing they are keeping quiet about?

For another thread.

[Michael Hardner]

26 minutes ago, Rue said:

Please. You engage when you selectively feel like it. Save it Saint Michael of the Hardner. Regards, Rue of the Ruins

"It is you who say it."

Jesus

[Michael Hardner]

41 minutes ago, Rue said:

When someone picks their nose whether they do it with a finger, knife, toothpick, cue tip, their friend's finger, I don't care -it still produces snot. The rest was pretty much the same as the first sentence so let me leave it at the word snot.

Do you dislike reading the long posts of others?  Because that would be a great irony to me, and possibly others.

[Argus]

10 hours ago, h102 said:

So with racism, we are going to have the diversity consultants, racialized persons etc come out as the anti-racism side.  So which person is going to come out and argue and debate in favor of racism?... .... .... This is the real reason why a debate would be impossible.

The diversity consultants would be saying "OMG! RACISM EVERYWHERE! MUST HAVE MORE LAWS! MUST HAVE MORE BOARDS AND COMMITTEES!"

The opposite opinion to that is not to defend or speak in favour of racism but to say "Racism really isn't that widespread or deep. There is little systemic racism. Inequities are the result of personal background and the fact most visible minorities are immigrants from the third world. Nothing to get excited about here. Etc"

[turningrite]

18 hours ago, Argus said:

The diversity consultants would be saying "OMG! RACISM EVERYWHERE! MUST HAVE MORE LAWS! MUST HAVE MORE BOARDS AND COMMITTEES!"

The opposite opinion to that is not to defend or speak in favour of racism but to say "Racism really isn't that widespread or deep. There is little systemic racism. Inequities are the result of personal background and the fact most visible minorities are immigrants from the third world. Nothing to get excited about here. Etc"

I believe you're correct Argus. However, those who defend the racialist construct (i.e. 'You're either with us or you're an unrepentant bigot!') that seemingly permeates progressive thought believe that reducing the debate to absurd extremes somehow proves their point. Generally, they appear not to be interested in rational debate. Just because their perspective is extreme doesn't mean that those who disagree with them are.

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada had and still has plenty of systemic "racism"...the very term "visible minority" is systemic and inherently racist.

 

[Rue]

On 10/18/2018 at 6:42 PM, Michael Hardner said:

Do you dislike reading the long posts of others?  Because that would be a great irony to me, and possibly others.

Don't deflect. I answered directly your comment as to how people can question what is going on until they hear the discussion on racism. Spare me the pathetic deflection. Also no one forces you or anyone else to stretch their attention span. Save it.

[Rue]

4 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canada had and still has plenty of systemic "racism"...the very term "visible minority" is systemic and inherently racist.

 

Systemic, inherent, visible minority..nice to see the CIA using such terms.

The leftist lecturers with their bull shit platitudes are just the latest version of proseltyzers. 

Far as I am concerned the whole stinking lot of you leftist geniuses need to clean out what is under your foreskins. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2018 by Rue

[Michael Hardner]

26 minutes ago, Rue said:

Don't deflect. I answered directly your comment as to how people can question what is going on until they hear the discussion on racism. Spare me the pathetic deflection. Also no one forces you or anyone else to stretch their attention span. Save it.

I think I answered your post anyway.  I'm not sure why you went off, when I reread the thread I modified my initial (pointed) response.  But go ahead and be mad.

[Rue]

 

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I think I answered your post anyway.  I'm not sure why you went off, when I reread the thread I modified my initial (pointed) response.  But go ahead and be mad.

If you mean angry thanks I am not. I am quite happy when I dish it back at thou and thine righteous flock of proseltyzers. Y'all should stop posing as fishermen given you are all pork eaters. If you mean I am the other kind of mad of course. 

Edited October 19, 2018 by Rue

[Michael Hardner]

18 minutes ago, Rue said:

 

... thine righteous flock of proseltyzers. Y'all should stop posing as fishermen given you are all pork eaters. If you mean I am the other kind of mad of course. 

I think calling out people jumping to conclusions isn't moralizing, and isn't pretending to be a saint.  It's more like thread hygiene.

[Rue]

34 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I think calling out people jumping to conclusions isn't moralizing, and isn't pretending to be a saint.  It's more like thread hygiene.

Yah. I do think it an appropriate analogy.. Michael Hardener, Maple Leaf Forum Enema.

You might want to try it on yourself.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2018 by Rue

[Michael Hardner]

10 hours ago, Rue said:

Yah. I do think of you now that you mention it as can enema.  

Enema in a can ?  That's a million dollar idea.  I can do that !

[WestCanMan]

On 10/17/2018 at 7:58 PM, Michael Hardner said:

Not really.  I think the way the Liberals go about doing things is arrogant at best and anti-democratic at worst.  But I also can't blame them, given the fact that there are only a handful of people who are capable of discussing such topics thoughtfully and no national leaders who can proxy for the different points of view represented by Canadians.

We know that Trudeau can’t be part of a rational conversation about racism. He doesn’t even have an opinion, just a desire to be the world’s biggest virtue signaller. He’d call his own mom a racist just for a bump in the polls. 

“Oh look at that poor girl, smirking about her traumatic hijab incident! Canadians are scum!” Then when it’s a hoax, there’s no apology, he just doubles down against Canadians. 

Anyone he or his toadies pick out will be equally insipid.

Honestly there’s nothing I could care less about than Trudeau’s opinion, or that of his useful idiots. 

[cannuck]

I am endlessly amused at this "racist" kind of stuff.  EVERYONE is a racist - or a liar.  Some sort of group identity and discriminatory protection of same is human nature.   Yes, there certainly are widely varying degrees of racism, but you can't legislate or regulate human nature.

[Michael Hardner]

30 minutes ago, cannuck said:

I am endlessly amused at this "racist" kind of stuff.  EVERYONE is a racist - or a liar.  Some sort of group identity and discriminatory protection of same is human nature.   Yes, there certainly are widely varying degrees of racism, but you can't legislate or regulate human nature.

No, but you can regulate behaviour and set the tone for a common moral code.  The US was never going to move forward with Jim Crow laws, lynchings, and two standards for how to treat people.  They didn't cure racism, but they moved on.

 

[GostHacked]

On 10/18/2018 at 11:04 AM, scribblet said:

What people are naive about is in thinking that Trudeau's promise of openness and transparency would actually be a 'thing' 

The notion of openness from the government is about as valid as the notion of needing change.  Government does not care about either.

[h102]

On 10/18/2018 at 7:27 PM, Argus said:

The diversity consultants would be saying "OMG! RACISM EVERYWHERE! MUST HAVE MORE LAWS! MUST HAVE MORE BOARDS AND COMMITTEES!"

The opposite opinion to that is not to defend or speak in favour of racism but to say "Racism really isn't that widespread or deep. There is little systemic racism. Inequities are the result of personal background and the fact most visible minorities are immigrants from the third world. Nothing to get excited about here. Etc"

Who is going to come out and deny the obvious truth though?  That is what you seem to be missing.  Who is this "opposite opinion"?

It would be like a bunch of old white guys coming out and arguing that sexism isn't' so bad or a bunch of straight old men coming out and arguing anti-gay discrimination isn't that bad.  The obvious question will be how is this old white guy who has never experienced misogyny, homophobia or racism going to know?  He won't, he can't speak from personal experience in any credible way because he doesn't belong to those groups most likely to be effected, so no one will take his claims  serious because he has no serious claim, if he dismisses these issues it will look more like part of a long history of bigotry of white straight men dismissing everyone's claim of discrimination.  The opposite opinion will not be taken seriously because they have no basis in fact to make the claims. What white guy is going to able to say I was a black woman so as a black woman I experienced no racism or sexism and its just overblown?  None.  So the only thing they can rely on are studies, which almost all show racism is much worse than what most white people are willing to acknowledge.

There are studies which show inequities are the result of direct government and institutional sanctioned racism.  While many visible minorities are immigrants from the third world, many more of them are born, raised and schooled in Canada and have no real connection to their home nations in addition to the fact that the direct immigrants usually come from elite backgrounds in their respective home nations.  Many of them end up returning viewing immigrating to Canada as a mistake because their lifestyles were better in their home nations.  Then we would also be ignoring that when most of the European immigrants came to Canada, their homelands were third world as well.  I can tell you that Vietnam today has a lot more economic activity going on that Italy or Greece did when most of those people came over here.

[h102]

On 10/18/2018 at 11:02 AM, turningrite said:

In any consultation one should hope that all sides are heard. What's needed is perspective. Where you raise the issue that few if any are likely going to come out and argue in favor of racism,you entirely miss the point. The real objective of any effective analysis should be to determine whether our interventionist policies are accomplishing their intended goals, whether they're creating negative or unintended consequences and, ultimately, whether they're necessary at all.

You miss your own point, you argue all sides should be heard, but the racist are a side, therefore, by your own logic, they should be heard.  And if the racist are heard, they will prove the point of the diversity consultants without them saying anything because the racist will say something racist and dumb without realizing it.

 

On 10/18/2018 at 11:02 AM, turningrite said:

A piece published in the NP several months ago (link below) indicates that minority representation on university faculties has now achieved equity in terms of broadly reflecting minority vs majority demographics but the piece notes that equity advocates still aren't satisfied and apparently seek ever more 'equity', a mission that apparently will never reach completion. The goalposts have now been moved and equality of outcomes based on measures chosen by the advocates as well as specific representation for less advantaged sub-groups, presumably in the latter instance at the expense of the majority representation even though some other equity sub-groups are now over-represented, are the new targets. Presumably, under-representation of the majority is the intended even if not explicitly acknowledged goal here. So, what is equity? What should it look like and what should it hope to achieve while maintaining a semblance of fairness for those not favored by its requirements. These are the kinds of questions that need to be addressed lest the general public develop the impression that the whole enterprise is simply a game that intends to reallocate public resources to meet the political objectives of constituencies favored by government. Is this all part of what Maxime Bernier has described as "extreme" diversity and multiculturalism? Is the Trudeau government even concerned about the answer to that question? Probably not, but I suspect many Canadians are.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/turns-out-there-is-discrimination-in-hiring-professors-but-not-against-minorities

But less advantaged sub-groups are under-represented due to discrimination.  Equity means growing the pie and adding new professors and classes to get them represented adequately.  You present a false narrative like they are firing a white professor and replacing him, instead they are simply adding a professor who'd not otherwise be there, but for discrimination.

Equity looks different in different organizations and situations, equity means treating people fairly in the circumstances they come from.  Equity hopes to achieve an equitable environment for everyone. 

Bernier is a hypocrite, he is a French Canadian who has a racial quota on the Supreme court, implicitly in the parties, politically, and who benefits from ever manner of government quota from the federal government, who then turns around to cry about multi-culturalism being extreme because some Muslim in Quebec wears a head scarf?

[Argus]

27 minutes ago, h102 said:

There are studies which show inequities are the result of direct government and institutional sanctioned racism.  

Cite them.

27 minutes ago, h102 said:

While many visible minorities are immigrants from the third world

70% are immigrants from the third world, and a large proportion of the remainder are very young.

27 minutes ago, h102 said:

, many more of them are born, raised and schooled in Canada and have no real connection to their home nations in addition to the fact that the direct immigrants usually come from elite backgrounds in their respective home nations.  Many of them end up returning viewing immigrating to Canada as a mistake because their lifestyles were better in their home nations.  Then we would also be ignoring that when most of the European immigrants came to Canada, their homelands were third world as well.  I can tell you that Vietnam today has a lot more economic activity going on that Italy or Greece did when most of those people came over here.

Yeah but when most of those people came over here their homeland's skill and education level was not dissimilar to that which existed in Canada today. Meanwhile, our requirement for education and skills is far, far, far higher today than that of the general body of citizenry in the third world.

[Argus]

20 minutes ago, h102 said:

But less advantaged sub-groups are under-represented due to discrimination.  

You have presented no evidence to support such a statement.

20 minutes ago, h102 said:

Equity means growing the pie and adding new professors and classes to get them represented adequately.

Equity means preferential hiring of less qualified minorities over more qualified whites. Racist hiring, in other words.

 

[h102]

7 minutes ago, Argus said:

Cite them.

70% are immigrants from the third world, and a large proportion of the remainder are very young.

Yeah but when most of those people came over here their homeland's skill and education level was not dissimilar to that which existed in Canada today. Meanwhile, our requirement for education and skills is far, far, far higher today than that of the general body of citizenry in the third world.

Given that almost all the studies show it, I will permit you to find them on google. Just in case you cannot, here are just a few:

Title	Author	Media
The Effects of Sexism on American Women: The Role of Norms vs. Discrimination	Kerwin Kofi Charles, Jonathan Guryan, Jessica Pan	Url
The Neighborhood Context of Latino Threat	Matthew Hall, Maria Krysan	Url
A Most Egalitarian Profession: Pharmacy and the Evolution of a Family-Friendly Occupation	Claudia Goldin, Lawrence F. Katz	Url
The Gender Wage Gap: Extent, Trends, and Explanations	Francine D. Blau, Lawrence M. Kahn	Url
Foreign-Born Latinos Living in Rural Areas are More Likely to Experience Health Care Discrimination: Results from Proyecto de Salud para Latinos	Daniel F. López-Cevallos, S. Marie Harvey

Leave policies in challenging times: what have we learned? What lies ahead?	Janet Gornick	Url
Effect of Neighborhood Stigma on Economic Transactions	Max Besbris, Jacob William Faber, Peter Rich, Patrick Sharkey	Url
Gender Inequality in Science	Andrew M. Penner	Url
Overwork and the Slow Convergence in the Gender Gap in Wages	Youngjoo Cha, Kim A. Weeden	Url
From motherhood penalties to husband premia: The new challenge for gender equality and family policy, lessons from Norway	Trond Petersen, Andrew M. Penner, Geir Høgsnes

• 
  Shelley Correll
• 
  Cecilia Ridgeway
• 
  David Pedulla

1. 1
2. 2
3. 3

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Leaders: Shelley Correll, David Pedulla, Cecilia Ridgeway 

The Poverty and Discrimination RG is charged with developing a regularized protocol for measuring the amount and extent of discrimination in labor and housing markets. It is increasingly clear that labor market discrimination, far from withering away, remains very prominent for many statuses and in many types of markets. However, because this research tradition is based on “one-off” audit studies and laboratory experiments, it is not possible to compare across studies and assess which types of discrimination are the most important or the most resistant to change. There is accordingly a need to build a standardized protocol for monitoring trends in discrimination across the various types of discrimination in play (e.g., poverty status, employment status, homelessness, economic background, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, incarceration status, citizenship, religion, disability). The twofold objective of this protocol is to make it possible to assess which types of discrimination are especially prominent and which types are growing weaker or stronger over time.

 

 

Featured Examples

Click on the active buttons for a full listing of all the important policy analysis, basic research, or journalism addressing this key issue. Also explore our working papers addressing this key issue and our affiliates with expertise in this key issue.

CPI Research

& Cutting-edge Science

 

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Discrimination - CPI Research

Title	Author	Media
State of the Union 2018: Discrimination	David S. Pedulla	Url
State of the Union 2018: Gender Identification	Aliya Saperstein	Url
Polluting Black Space	Bonam, Courtney M., Bergsieker, Hilary B., Eberhardt, Jennifer L.	Url
Men Set Their Own Cites High: Gender and Self-Citation Across Fields and Over Time	Molly M. King, Carl T. Bergstrom, Shelley J. Correll, Jennifer Jacquet, Jevin D. West	Url
Women in Academic Medicine: Measuring Stereotype Threat Among Junior Faculty	M. Fassiotto, E.O. Hamel, M. Ku, S. Correll, D. Grewal, P. Lavori, V.J. Periyakoil, A. Reiss, C. Sandborg, G. Walton, M. Winkleby, H. Valantine	Url

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Discrimination - CPI Affiliates

	Shelley Correll	Discrimination Research Group Leader, Barbara D. Finberg Director of Michelle R. Clayman Institute for Research on Gender, Professor of Sociology	Stanford University
	Cecilia Ridgeway	Discrimination Research Group Leader, Lucie Stern Professor in the Social Sciences	Stanford University
	David Pedulla	Discrimination Research Group Leader, Assistant Professor of Sociology	Stanford University
	Bart Landry	Professor of Sociology, Emeritus	University of Maryland
	Claudia Goldin	Henry Lee Professor of Economics; Research Associate, National Bureau of Economic Research	Harvard University

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Discrimination - Other Research

Title	Author	Media
Vulnerable Populations and Transformative Law Teaching	Society of American Law Teachers, Golden Gate...	Url
Illegal Migration from Mexico to the United States	Gordon H. Hanson	Url
Housing Discrimination in Metropolitan America: Explaining Changes between 1989 and 2000	Stephen L. Ross and Margery Austin Turner	Url
Flexible Firms and Labor Market Segmentation: Effects of Workplace Restructuring on Jobs and Workers	Arne. L. Kalleberg	Url
Urban Poverty and Juvenile Crime: Evidence from a Randomized Housing-Mobility Experiment	Jens Ludwig, Greg J. Duncan and Paul Hirschfield

• 
  Shelley Correll
• 
  Cecilia Ridgeway
• 
  David Pedulla

1. 1
2. 2
3. 3

• Previous
• Next

 

Leaders: Shelley Correll, David Pedulla, Cecilia Ridgeway 

The Poverty and Discrimination RG is charged with developing a regularized protocol for measuring the amount and extent of discrimination in labor and housing markets. It is increasingly clear that labor market discrimination, far from withering away, remains very prominent for many statuses and in many types of markets. However, because this research tradition is based on “one-off” audit studies and laboratory experiments, it is not possible to compare across studies and assess which types of discrimination are the most important or the most resistant to change. There is accordingly a need to build a standardized protocol for monitoring trends in discrimination across the various types of discrimination in play (e.g., poverty status, employment status, homelessness, economic background, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, incarceration status, citizenship, religion, disability). The twofold objective of this protocol is to make it possible to assess which types of discrimination are especially prominent and which types are growing weaker or stronger over time.

 

 

Featured Examples

Click on the active buttons for a full listing of all the important policy analysis, basic research, or journalism addressing this key issue. Also explore our working papers addressing this key issue and our affiliates with expertise in this key issue.

CPI Research

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Other Research

 

Media

Discrimination - CPI Research

Title	Author	Media
State of the Union 2018: Discrimination	David S. Pedulla	Url
State of the Union 2018: Gender Identification	Aliya Saperstein	Url
Polluting Black Space	Bonam, Courtney M., Bergsieker, Hilary B., Eberhardt, Jennifer L.	Url
Men Set Their Own Cites High: Gender and Self-Citation Across Fields and Over Time	Molly M. King, Carl T. Bergstrom, Shelley J. Correll, Jennifer Jacquet, Jevin D. West	Url
Women in Academic Medicine: Measuring Stereotype Threat Among Junior Faculty	M. Fassiotto, E.O. Hamel, M. Ku, S. Correll, D. Grewal, P. Lavori, V.J. Periyakoil, A. Reiss, C. Sandborg, G. Walton, M. Winkleby, H. Valantine	Url

•  
• 1 of 18
• next ›

Discrimination - CPI Affiliates

	Shelley Correll	Discrimination Research Group Leader, Barbara D. Finberg Director of Michelle R. Clayman Institute for Research on Gender, Professor of Sociology	Stanford University
	Cecilia Ridgeway	Discrimination Research Group Leader, Lucie Stern Professor in the Social Sciences	Stanford University
	David Pedulla	Discrimination Research Group Leader, Assistant Professor of Sociology	Stanford University
	Bart Landry	Professor of Sociology, Emeritus	University of Maryland
	Claudia Goldin	Henry Lee Professor of Economics; Research Associate, National Bureau of Economic Research	Harvard University

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Discrimination - Other Research

Title	Author	Media
Punishment and Inequality in America	Bruce Western	Url
Liminal Legality: Salvadoran and Guatemalan Immigrants’ Lives in the United States	Cecilia Menjívar	Url
The Age of Migration: International Population Movements in the Modern World	Castles Stephen and Mark J. Miller	Url
Poverty and Discrimination	Lester C. Thurow	Url
The Size and Characteristics of the Unauthorized Migrant Population in the U.S	Jeffrey S. Passel

https://inequality.stanford.edu/cpi-research/area/discrimination

 

This is why the old white guy coming and denying discrimination will look like a buffoon, the studies are so overwhelming it would be like a flat earther arguing for a flat earth in this day and age.  You also seem to be forgetting their are literally thousands of cases in the Human Rights Tribunal where the government's own body is finding discrimination every day. When round after round of stanford, harvard, yale, etc professor can come and show all the evidence of racism and a white guy with no study, no experience just says racism is all made up, he looks like what he is.

 

They are from the 3rd world, but they come from large cities and elite backgrounds, they come to Canada with substantial education and beat out other people who want to come here by the millions.  They are on average more educated than their white counterparts, and face substantial racist discrimination.

Most of the white people coming over then did not even have high school educations, this was one of the factors that led to the door being closed, the Southern and Eastern Europeans were really backwards, probably the least skilled immigrants to ever be let into Canada, most of them couldn't even read and write in their own languages.  I agree, our requirement for immigrants is very high, this adds to the point that they face discrimination.

[h102]

19 minutes ago, Argus said:

You have presented no evidence to support such a statement.

Equity means preferential hiring of less qualified minorities over more qualified whites. Racist hiring, in other words.

 

Define which sub-groups you are talking about, read all the studies I have presented above, you'll see they are.

Who says the whites were more qualified to begin with?  But if your definition of equity means a preferential hiring to nonwhites, when the history of this country despite equity is usually preference in hiring underqualified whites, aren't you the guy who always said how underqualified Justin Trudeau was?  Isn't Trudeau white? O, but that doesn't fit your agenda of underqualified minorities taking whites jobs.