Anti-Americanism

February 17, 2005

Grantier, there is a significanr difference in the "supports" for the military in the US. Support is not really for the troops on a personal level: it is support for the institution of the Presidency as C in C and the symbol of Americanism.

That is what can be hated about "Americanism." It is the sign of an immature and insecure nation. Unquestioning loyalty; "my country right or wrong, but my country." Most modern nations have gone a little beyond that. We all may support our country, but we question the actions of our leaders. That is what I think Black Dog is saying.

It is also why you should not listen to IMR who still does not understand the "Parrish" thing. Parrish does not hate Americans: like the rest of us, she was talking of what America is doing and the government that is doing it to Americans as well as to outsiders.

Personally, I hate them all: even my daughter-in-law who hates Bush and all my son's friends and new relatives who also hate Bush.

I can't wait to see Los Angeles slide into the ocean when the big one comes: or New York to be drowned when the icecaps melt completely.

August1991 · February 17, 2005

To get back to the original thread topic, it seems to me that "anti-Americanism" is a portion of what makes up so-called "English Canada".

Loyalists were the first group to inhabit English Canada. Later immigrants chose Canada as opposed to the US. There are exceptions. Newfoundlanders and French Canadians of course.

English Canadians use the epithet 'American' as an insult. I have a suspicion that Torontonians view Albertans as "American" (meaning they are hick, Texan cowboys) and Calgarians view Torontonians as "American" (meaning they are arrogant, snob New Yorkers).

English Canada is like the French in Switzerland or Belgium. They get front row seats to the big show on the other side of the border. IOW, English Canadians are the only non-Americans in the world who understand domestic American politics.

All other foreigners view the US as a foreign entity and think the President speaks for the country.

Trudeau was unfortunately right when he said that to earn respect in English Canada, a PM should not kowtow to the Americans. (He was speaking about Mulroney.)

As to French Canada, I will only say that there is a strong streak of isolationism - just as there also is in the US.

I have a strong respect for the basic ideals of the US. I am heartened when I meet individual Americans who truly appreciate the significance of the American experiment. More often though, I have found them oblivious.

Newfie Canadian · February 18, 2005

I think it is the main reason

I Miss Reagan, my friend (if I may be so presumptuous), I disagree. It may be a reason for some, but not many.

Canadians really believe that people in the world will not treat them well if they are percieved as American.

I cited a poll in another thread that indicated that a majority of Canadians liked America and Americans. More than that, the poll indicated that support for Americans was greatest in Canada, compared to the UK and other US allies.

Did it ever occur to you that people may treat Canadians better because they are Canadians, and not because they are not Americans?

I know we've been through it before, but she's a good example of how many people think in this country.

Again IMR, I respectfully disagree, and I'll point to O'Reilly's poll for evidence.

(I'll be, O'Reilly may not be totally useless after all. )

I've already stated elsewhere what I think of her immature antics.

She is a nobody in regards to government.

Yank-bashing beer ads are so wildly popular

I never saw them as anti-American. I just saw them as making fun of some stereo types that Americans use about Canada and Canadians.

We're taught to do it by our media and from elementary school to university.

The media I'll give you to a point.

The only thing I've got to say about school is I learned more about the US in school than I did about my own country.

I knew about the US constitution before I knew about my own.

Isn't that sad?

Maybe, just maybe, we as Canadians are starting to distance ourselves from our American cousins to shape our own identity and destiny separate from that of the US.

I don't see that as anti-American. I see it as pro-Canadian.

And what's wrong with that?

caesar · February 18, 2005

I think it is the main reason, and the other reasons are tied to it. Canadians really believe that people in the world will not treat them well if they are percieved as American. (The odd self-hating American buys into this as well).

Canadians are seen as more friendly; The "ugly American" does exist; arrogant and loud; proclaiming I am American; believing that gives him special rights. They are not the majority of Americans; I am sure; but their loudness and arrogance gets the attention.

I had one bitching at me as the lottery tickets don't show the odds the same way as it does in the USA. I didn't even run the lottery store. I just told him if he doesn't like our system of selling lottery tickets; don't buy them.

Americans wear our flags to avoid confrontation regarding American policies and to avoid being held hostage or whatever. Some colleges suggested to their students to display the Canadian flag for safety especially since the Iraqi invasion.

Grantler · February 18, 2005

Ok, to be perfectly honest, I am lost. I shouldn't have let this wait, you guys post so much so fast. LOL

WageSlave · February 19, 2005

It seems to me as though Anti-Americanism in this country is out of control.
Is it right for Canadians to hate America, as they do, because of their dislike for an administration. In 4 years it will be a new one and then what?

What if the leader is another Bill Clinton who we can tolerate, do we just flip the switch back after years of constant attacks on the country as a whole?

I agree this anti-bush banwaggon gets on my nerves aswell, considering that many Canadians are ignorant bastards that hate gays and non-christians just as viciously as bubba-jo.

Shakeyhands · February 21, 2005

Anti Americanism? No such thing really. Anti Bushism, for sure and for good reason. I think really it is more about Protectionism (as long as Corporate America benefits)

I always think back to the clip in Farenheit 9/11 of Bush addressing his base of 'the haves' That was very telling.

Grantler · February 21, 2005

Yes, but anti-Bushism is spilling over into anti-American sentiment.

This is a fact internationally and as far as I can see from the people I associate with, it is with them too.

ticker · February 21, 2005

Fahrenheit 9/11 was a waste of money. For all the advertisement hype it wasn’t worth the time. Take away the true/false arguments and you are left with a dull docu drama of Moore walking around the streets interviewing people ... hardly a must see academy award movie. Only those who hate bush and are looking for any dirt would consider they were getting value for their money.

Newfie Canadian · February 21, 2005

Yes, but anti-Bushism is spilling over into anti-American sentiment.

Perhaps on a small scale, but when you ask people the question, more often than not they will say they're anti-Bush, not anti-American.

What we see in demonstrations are people who say America is an imperialist bully, but you and they have to realize (and I think a majority do) that that is a decision of the American government and the president, not the American people.

Shakeyhands · February 21, 2005

Perhaps on a small scale, but when you ask people the question, more often than not they will say they're anti-Bush, not anti-American.

Or I guess more correctly Anti-49% of Americans....

Shakeyhands · February 21, 2005

Fahrenheit 9/11 was a waste of money. For all the advertisement hype it wasn’t worth the time. Take away the true/false arguments and you are left with a dull docu drama of Moore walking around the streets interviewing people ... hardly a must see academy award movie. Only those who hate bush and are looking for any dirt would consider they were getting value for their money.

While my reference to the movie had more to do with his comment I will say that if even 2 percent of what was portrayed to have happened is legit... Bush should be taken out back and shot by his own people.

Sorry you didn't 'enjoy' the film.

ticker · February 21, 2005

Even if Fahrenheit 9/11 was a pro bush movie it would still fall under the category of a dull docu drama.... Moore makes Jacque Cousteaus’ films look like they deserve an academy award.

At least Jacque Cousteau doesn't try to pretend his films are a must see blockbuster.

I miss Reagan · February 21, 2005

Hi Newfie,

I have no doubt that you have no problem with Americans. From what I've seen Newfoundlanders are pretty humble people that give everyone the benefit of the doubt. But I think there are a large number of Canadians who have been taught by the media, teachers, and political leaders to hate Americans.

Did it ever occur to you that people may treat Canadians better because they are Canadians, and not because they are not Americans?

I don't think so. In my experience on 5 continents, people see us pretty much the same way as they look at New Zealanders and Austrailians. A little different but basically the same. And as much as we like to see ourselves as playing a large role in the world, most of the world doesn't give us much thought.

Maybe, just maybe, we as Canadians are starting to distance ourselves from our American cousins to shape our own identity and destiny separate from that of the US.

Again, I don't think so. As the world becomes more global and as our cancult laws prove to be a failure, it is impossible to resist the inevitable further integration of our economies and cultures if Canadians want to maintain their standard of living. But, the CBC and others are trying hard to fight it.

In practice, Canadians recognise the reality. For many everyday purposes, North America is one country: on the morning of September 11, the Canadian deputy commander was in charge at the joint air-defence headquarters at Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado. When the border was closed over the next few days and the trucks began queuing for miles, all Canadians were obliged to consider what real severance from the Americans would mean.

More insight from a third party...

Every country in the world is screwed up about its relationship with the US. But in Canada it is a national obsession, even a neurosis....
The most startling recent poll showed 84% of Canadians consider the US wholly (15%) or partly (69%) to blame for September 11. It is a remarkable indication of fundamental antipathy....

Essentially, Canadians regard all Americans as morons, unless proven otherwise. It is probably only that sense of moral superiority that stops the nation turning into a jibbering wreck.

Canadian patriotism is notoriously hard to pin down, because it rests on a negative: not being the US...

And from Eureka:

Personally, I hate them all...
I can't wait to see Los Angeles slide into the ocean when the big one comes: or New York to be drowned when the icecaps melt completely.

:huh: While he may be comended for his honestly, and not pretending to be open minded, it's a good example of how a lot of people in this country think. Even more telling is the lack of response to this kind of hatred. It's ok in Canada to talk like this about Americans. But can you imagine if someone had made these comments about Pakistani's or Arabs? There would be no tolerance what -so-ever. He'd be branded a racist and a bigot and probably be banned from the forum.

caesar · February 21, 2005

But I think there are a large number of Canadians who have been taught by the media, teachers, and political leaders to hate Americans.

Nope, Bush and his aggressive peace threatening actions has done that quite well himself. Then there is the USA's actions in illegal trade actions that completely tick off many of us, too.

Newfie Canadian · February 22, 2005

A little different but basically the same. And as much as we like to see ourselves as playing a large role in the world, most of the world doesn't give us much thought.

I appreciate your experiences IMR, especially since I have never left the country, except to visit St. Pierre and Miquelon which is part of France, but that's another story.

I just believe, perhaps naively, that if someone sees the Maple Leaf instead of the Stars and Stripes, they understand the difference.

I have no doubt that you have no problem with Americans. From what I've seen Newfoundlanders are pretty humble people that give everyone the benefit of the doubt. But I think there are a large number of Canadians who have been taught by the media, teachers, and political leaders to hate Americans.

We have our moments.

I keep going back to hating Americans vs. hating the American government.

I don't recall very many media stories or teachers or politicians (with the obvious exception of those twits, Parrishand Ducros) spreading hatred towards the American citizenry.

I don't believe Canadians blame or hold malice toward Americans for Iraq, or softwood lumber, or BSE, or Afghanistan, etc. I do believe they blame the President and Congress and policies of the government.

And if Canadians do blame Americans for these and other things, I think it may be as simple as taking it out on who you can reach.

I may be way off.

Thanks for that link IMR, it was an interesting article.

February 22, 2005

Have your little bit of fun, IMR. It must be very depressing trying to defend Bush these days.

Actually, if we could discover an envorinmental version of BMD that worked, I would like to see Yellowstone Park go up again - much bigger than any that will hit Los Angeles. But the fallout would virtually destroy advanced life on earth.

I miss Reagan · February 22, 2005

Have your little bit of fun, IMR. It must be very depressing trying to defend Bush these days.
Actually, if we could discover an envorinmental version of BMD that worked, I would like to see Yellowstone Park go up again - much bigger than any that will hit Los Angeles. But the fallout would virtually destroy advanced life on earth.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying Eureka. And I'm not sure you mean by having my little bit of fun. The only thing I find depressing is the hatred you have towards people merely by virtue of where they were born. I hope you don't teach your kids or grandkids, whatever the case may be, to hate like that. I'm a cub scout leader and one of my cubs moved here from the US last year. The kid is only 8 years old yet somehow all the kids at school pick on him and pester him to tears because he happens to be American. And even on a more personal (without revealing too much) I know someone who moved here from the US who doesn't even tell people where they're from because of how awful they're treated by people here.

I moved to Canada after the 2000 election. Although I did it mainly for career reasons -- I got a job whose description read as though it had been written precisely for my rather quirky background and interests -- at the time I found it gratifying to joke that I was leaving the United States because of George W. Bush. It felt fine to think of myself as someone who was actually going to make good on the standard election-year threat to leave the country.
Also, I had spent years of my life feeling like I wasn't a typical American and wishing I could be Canadian. I wanted to live in a country that was not a superpower, a country I believe to have made the right choices about fairness, human rights and the social compact...

Check out this Canadian experience by one American

ticker · February 23, 2005

"In the wake of 9/11, after the initial shock wore off, it was common to hear some Canadians voice the opinion that Americans had finally gotten what they deserved. The attacks were just deserts for years of interventionist U.S. foreign policy, the increasing inequality between the world's poorest nations and the wealthiest one on Earth, and a generalized arrogance."

It only took the panel of 'unbiased experts' on the CBC a couple of days to come to the conclusion the US deserved it.... or did they reach that conclusion the same day but had to wait a coupe of days for the CBC to put a program together : :

August1991 · February 23, 2005

IMR, that was an excellent article. Thanks for the link.

The attacks were just deserts for years of interventionist U.S. foreign policy, the increasing inequality between the world's poorest nations and the wealthiest one on Earth, and a generalized arrogance.

The irony here is that 15 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia where material standards are as good as in the rich north. These guys were not from the oppressed, exploited or downtrodden masses.

-----

I have compared the anti-Americanism of English Canada to the anti-Angloism of French Canada. It would be simple to say that both are rooted in an inferiority complex. I also think they are caused by simple narrow-minded ignorance, a garden variety of racism.

February 23, 2005

IMR, I am not sure what you are talking about, either, but, don't so blithely toss around statements about others hating anyone. I say that, since it is now apparent that you were not being "humorous" but meant your mean spirited jibes.

Shakeyhands · February 23, 2005

I'm a cub scout leader and one of my cubs moved here from the US last year. The kid is only 8 years old yet somehow all the kids at school pick on him and pester him to tears because he happens to be American. And even on a more personal (without revealing too much) I know someone who moved here from the US who doesn't even tell people where they're from because of how awful they're treated by people here.

I'm calling BullShoit on this one.

I also find it amazing that its ok for some to discriminate based on sexual orientation (according to the Conservative mantra) but God forbid if your beloved Americans are criticzed for anything... Give me a break.

It also terrifies me that you are a Scout Leader and you are intent on bashing your Country at every chance. I won't even bring up your reluctance to grant other the same rights and privledges that you enjoy.

Are you familiar with the 3 Principles?

Black Dog · February 23, 2005

The term anti-Americanism is completely devoid of any meaning and is designed only to drain teh discussion of any context. How can you have anti-Americanism without first having a definition of what "Americanism" is? Are we talking state policy, culture, geography, what?

Basically the term anti-Americanism (as it's been used so far in this discussion) is a catch-all for right-wingers who want to slur an opponent.

August1991 · February 23, 2005

The term anti-Americanism is completely devoid of any meaning and is designed only to drain teh discussion of any context. How can you have anti-Americanism without first having a definition of what "Americanism" is? Are we talking state policy, culture, geography, what?
Basically the term anti-Americanism (as it's been used so far in this discussion) is a catch-all for right-wingers who want to slur an opponent.

Would you be so pedantic with the term homophobe?

Black Dog · February 23, 2005

Would you be so pedantic with the term homophobe?

Homophobe is fairly clear cut. Popular useage has given it a specific meaning, but you could, theoretically, interpret it literally to mean "fear of that which is the same". Similarily, anti-Semite has been popularly used to describe hatred of Jews, even though the term Semetic describes a language grouping.

Anti-Americanism alone is too broad a term to have any real meaning, nor has popular usage resulted in a single working definition. Does it mean "against Americans"? If so, what of prominent American "anti-Americans" such as Chomsky or Zinn? Are they "self-haters"?