Toronto Blue J/Gays

[Rue]

Wow. So come on let's talk. My Hebrew brother, Kevin Pillar, the best Blue Jays player this year and always my fave and one of the few  people from my tribe who can play ball real good put his foot in his mouth. After a quick pitch (something considered cowardly in baseball, he struck out and mouthed "you f..g" at the pitcher triggering a huge reaction and the Jays now suspending him 2 games for  using the word.

Let's back up a bit. In baseball a fast pitch happens when a pitcher does not let the batter fully set up. Most batters are twitching and have a sort of dance they go through before they get ready to hit. They have actually an elaborate ritual that can consist of kicking the dirt, tugging their shirt or crotch making some false swings, stretching into a position to hit, etc.

Baseball looks like a whole bunch of people with Tourette's syndrome. The catcher, pitcher, batter, people on the field, everyone involves themselves in repetitive twitches and tics. Its all part of the rhythm.

Now the etiquette has always been the pitcher waits for the batter to be ready even though he technically is far game once he steps in the batter's box. Technically was in the box the pitcher can pitch. They don't. They wait until the batter is ready. This way if they want to deliberatelty pitch the hitter inside or even hit him which is part of the game, the batter has an ability to turn and protect himself. A batter taking up to much of the hitting zone will get what is called a brush back pitch to make him adjust a bit and give the pitcher more room so  he doesn't accidentallyt hit him and walk him. Inside pitches are also supposed to be part of the head game in keeping the hitter guessing as to what to hit. A lot of strikes are caused by inside pitches that cause either foul balls or swing misses. It also is part of the intimidation factor. You want the hitter to flinch a bit and ruin his timing.

What the pitcher did the other day was deliberately fast pitch Pillar. Its not done in baseball. Its considered cowardly and dangerous. You can seriously injure or even kill a player doing that.

So this is why Pillar screamed the f..g word at him.

In competitive male sports, the word is hurled out all the time and its not used to insult the player for being gay but for calling him a coward. The word f..g in sports is synonomous with gutless, cowardly, unmanly.

A guy like Pillar would never use it against an actual gay player. Its usually a straight on straight insult to suggest cowardice.

The word "f..g" as an  insulting term for gay people and in particular gay men comes from the word fagot. Fagot was a term for thin strips of wood used to start a fire and f..g was the short term for it. The insult when using it was to suggest like fagots or kindling wood, gay men were "flamers" which is a play on the word flamboyant.  F..g was also used to mean cigarette because of it being like a little stick with a flame at the end.

Yes over the years it was used by those to ridicule gays but it is more probably by used by straight men against other straight men to suggest they are cowards or not man enough.

In competitive sports with men, there are codes of honour. You don't follow them, or if you whine too much, complain too much or do cowardly things you get called this. It has nothing to do with your being gay.

Now its interesting because in hockey Andrew Shaw when a Chicago Black Hawk called another player a "f..g" not even thinking it is also a gay slur. He was suspended and apologized and volunteers with the Habs where he now plays doing outreach with the gay community.

Kevin Pillar who is Jewish and been at the receiving end of many an anti-Semite comment particularly because of his large nose is no stranger to hatred. He spit  out the word in a fit of anger and once that word went out it triggered a firestorm because he was on national t.v. and everyone saw what he said.

Now I get it. Such words are hateful. We try avoid using such words. They have become so closely associated to hateful comments their use is problematic. I get that. I am 61. My generation uses that word all the time by men like me who know better and interestingly against gays but within us straight men calling each other names while playing sports. Its wrong but we use it in that different context.

We were brought up where men should be tough, take a hit, act honourably. No one in my age group although brought up on men do not cry macho belief systems would harass gay men. That's cowardly. Besides some of the toughest guys we know could be gay when we play sports and most of us are not so insecure we can't take a shower with gay men. We are stupid but you'd be surprised that we are not as stupid as we sound. Males of the homo sapiens species are what we are-apes. When we are with each other we grunt and do stupid things.

I am not excusing the use of the word but I think the context in which it was used by Pillar was blown out of context. Yes I get it. He's a role model. He's paid big bucks and he knows he's a public figure and role model. It was dumb. Yah it could hurt people which was not his intention.

However from what I heard on the radio, I have never heard so many sanctimonious turds dissing him-show me one person on this forum who is a man who has never used that word including gay men. I am not saying its acceptable but I am, saying give me a break those of you who want to lecture Pillar and pillar him.

Kevin Pillar may have  no foreskin but he does have thick skin. He wll  learn from this. But let's be real. The word is being used as we speak all across the leagues and won't stop. Its just another word that goes underground which is what happens in the politically correct era. Certain words like "f..g" and "n...ger" are lightening rod words. They immediately shut down dialogue. People clench up and stop listening and these words give them the right to close down and not listen.

Me I find it important with people that say things, to wait until I hear the full context of how they use the word and not just jump on it without hearing the full context. Some people use words that are hurtful not realizing they are or not meaning them in the way they are interpreted.

I think in general we are living in an era of extreme rigid censorship because of a tendency to shut down and be intolerant and close minded when we hear certain words. Censoring them won't make them go away.

Words evolve. At one time gay meant happy. Now it means of a certain sexual preference. Men actually were given the name Gay. There was a hockey player called Gay Stewart. A famous bomber in WW2 was called the Enola Gay. The Flintstone cartoon anthem sang out they were having a "gay old time". Well maybe Barney and Fred were gay. Come to think of it,  Yogi and Boo Boo, Qick Draw McGraw and Babba Louie, Johny Quest and Hadji, Race Bannon and Dr, Quest, Batman and Robin, Superman and Jimmy Olsen, Captain Haddock and Tintin, all gay.

My generation came through it. We understood why Batman wore tights, slid down a pole and never got  married. Hell I figured out Dr. Zackary Smith from Lost In Space, Paul Lynde, Wally Cox, Sal Mineo, James Dean, Rock Hudson, Tab Hunter were gay. My generation knew. We just didn't discuss what went on in Johny Mathis's home. We handled it. The next generation will too. I just think people need to get a handle on all these issues and not use them as an excuse to get too caught up in the word by  itself.

[Moonlight Graham]

A quick pitch is illegal, it should have been called a ball by the ump if they judged it that.

Quote

an illegal action in which the pitcher pitches the ball before the batter is prepared. In Major League Baseball, if an umpire believes a quick pitch has occurred, they will immediately call a balk or call the pitch a ball. A balk is called if there are runners on base; a ball is called if there are none. This action is a violation at all levels of competition. This rarely occurs at the Major League level, when it does it is typically a mistake on the part of the pitcher.

Males athletes (and men being around each other in general) call each other f*g all the time in an attempt to de-masculate/effeminate another male.  I use it, most other men use it, but that doesn't mean it's right.  It's a pretty offensive word especially the way it's used.  Using at a workplace to harass another co-worker is completely wrong and against player conduct rules for Pillar, so I don't have a problem with the suspension at all.

Gay men in pro sports have a really hard time being able to come out of the closet around their fellow jock teammates/opponents and fans because of the machismo hyper-masculine BS culture in sports.  In fact it's extremely rare for gay men to reveal themselves, and in fact to my knowledge no MLB player in history has come out of the closet (unless it's happened in the last few years I'm unaware of).  The same in the military with the "don't ask, don't tell" policy nonsense.  Gay men in pro team sports face huge stigma and certain harrassment, and if this will help try to erase that, I say that's fantastic.  We may say it's overly PC but we don't have to live as a gay pro athlete forced to hide who they are.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Moonlight Graham

[Bob Macadoo]

I'm sure Sandy Koufax thought it was all in good fun.......right Rue.......part of the machismo.

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Gay men in pro sports have a really hard time being able to come out of the closet around their fellow jock teammates/opponents and fans because of the machismo hyper-masculine BS culture in sports.

Ever been in the change room with your team after a game and have a shower? Not a lot of appreciation for being gay there.

[Moonlight Graham]

15 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Ever been in the change room with your team after a game and have a shower? Not a lot of appreciation for being gay there.

So what's your point?

And no, I go home and shower because it's really weird.

[OftenWrong]

18 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

So what's your point?

Calling someone a fag in sports should not be a problem, unless they actually are one.

[Moonlight Graham]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Calling someone a fag in sports should not be a problem, unless they actually are one.

If you called a co-worker that word at your workplace, in front of your customers, on national TV, do you think your boss would be fine with it?

[OftenWrong]

47 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

If you called a co-worker that word at your workplace, in front of your customers, on national TV, do you think your boss would be fine with it?

Oh my, bad words. Why don't you crucify the guy ffs.

[Bob Macadoo]

Just like when Pillar yells "My nigga...." when Donaldson belts a homerun.  No harm no foul.

5 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Calling someone a fag in sports should not be a problem, unless they actually are one.

 

[Boges]

I think many males use gay slurs as "locker room" talk amongst other like-minded people.

Pillar used it in public, at his place of work. He owned it and faced a penalty. 

What I hope doesn't happen, is people use this moving forward as a mark against his character. He made a mistake and we should move on. 

Far too often today, people want people's lives ruined for social missteps.

[Moonlight Graham]

On 2017-05-20 at 6:44 PM, OftenWrong said:

Oh my, bad words. Why don't you crucify the guy ffs.

It's not just bad words like saying the F word, it's a homophobic slur, in a city with a large LGBT community.  He wasn't crucified he was just suspended 2 games.

Back in the 1950's would you have supported white players saying the F word to black players?  It's not much different.

[Rue]

On ‎2017‎-‎05‎-‎19 at 9:20 PM, Bob Macadoo said:

I'm sure Sandy Koufax thought it was all in good fun.......right Rue.......part of the machismo.

Just once think before you try spit out a snide remark.

Sandy Kaufax heard the Jew taunts. He had to deal with them, So did Jackie Robinson. So did others. You don't get it. They had to be better then their taunters and ignore them and the words. , They could not give the taunting words power by reacting to them and giving them power.

The word "fag" is a word just like n..er and nego and dirty Jew, etc.. It causes hate because people allow the word to make them feel that way. Its a word or words.. Bigots won't stop using them because you censor them with fines.. They ust go underground Those of us as Moonlight sad who use the term "f...g:" not to make fun of gay people but in our antiquated way to call someone a coward, will learn to use a new word and the meaning will remain. Words evolve. As certain words become unallowed like the nigg..r and negro words we will simply replace them just as quick. As usual you did not understand the topic being discussed. Nothing in what I said suggested using the word "fag" was in good fun.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Rue

[Rue]

2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

It's not just bad words like saying the F word, it's a homophobic slur, in a city with a large LGBT community.  He wasn't crucified he was just suspended 2 games.

Back in the 1950's would you have supported white players saying the F word to black players?  It's not much different.

The analogy would not be a swear word but calling a Jewish player a k ike, a black player a n..ger a Latin player a spick. etc.

In this case the word "fag" was never used at the pitcher because he was gay, It was used to call him a "coward".

Since it also can be used as a hate word against gays, Pillar was told not to use the word. It he had simply called the pitcher a wuss, a coward, unmanly, no one would have said a thing.

Its because he chose a word also used to insult gays. That was the point. Some of us have given that word now so much power that we want it forever removed from the vocabulary like "n..ger" or "n..gro".

The point is censored words never disappear they simply go underground and other words replace them in identical meaning in mainstream vocabulary.

Its constant mutation.

My point is and remains and its something one poster showed you he can't grasp, is that when we give words power over us, then they hurt.

The way to change macho terms in macho sports is to discuss them in a way that helps change attitudes in a positive way not because of a knee jerk reaction.

The fact is Pillar used a word that gays might find offensive but was being used in a totally different context. The point is it not the same as if he said it to a gay person.

The point is it may be taken as an offense by gays for other reasons but it was not used as an attack on gays.

I know gays who could care less what word you use. They are not so insecure that the word "fag" causes them to  melt. Its a friggin world. Thanks I don't need some gentile like McAdoo to lecture me on what its like to be taunted for being a Jew. Like gays or any minority whose been the target of words, I learned long ago they only have power if I give them power. Thanks but I am like gays, and other minorities who learned a long time ago our identity begins and ends with how we define ourselves not how McAdoo does.   Pillar did not swear. He didn't belittle a gay. He spit out in anger a contempt comment to the pitcher for acting cowardly. He's now being told don't use the "fg" word to do that so he won't. Those macho attitudes will continue. Sports is about competition. Male sports is about an alpha male ritual elaborately drawn out. Let's stop pretending sports should be friendly and loving all the time. Yah I know. Fighting is horrible. Yah I know we should not allow any athlete to blow snot out of their nose, swear, give each other a cheap shot, pull on their crotch, make groaning noises when they exert themselves, etc. Give it a rest I say. All the moral Judges need to give it a rest.

 

[Bob Macadoo]

You are so full of crap.  These words are used as a substitute of character.....that makes them bigoted whether directed at that applicable person or not.

He said "Fag" to insinuate that he was feminine and not a man to face him.  He could have said "Jew/Kike" to insinuate he was being cheap or "nigga" to insinuate "lazy" or some other undesirable characteristic bigots associate with other cultures.  Its because some people are raised to believe its OK to describe culture not people like this and not generally they are a racist.  Hence why now terrorist only has one cultural meaning.

You fool yourself into thinking whatever but Mr Koufax was offended when he was called a bigotted name and he was offended when non-jews were called it as it meant his lineage was than theirs.

[H10]

So if a gay player calls another gay a kike or vermin or untermenschken, is that cool too?