Canadian Banking - Non-Scandal ?

[Michael Hardner]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/banks-sales-tactics-call-centres-go-public-1.4030981

Try as I might I can't see a scandal in this story:

Quote

No matter the reason a customer calls a bank's hotline — online banking trouble, stolen credit card, bill discrepancy — call centre employees say their job could be on the line if they can't sell the caller a new product or service.

Banks are well within their rights to sell products, aren't they ?  And the story includes items like this:

Quote

In response to the allegations, a spokesperson for CIBC said in a statement: "The kinds of behaviour you describe would result in the immediate termination of the supervisor," and that employees with concerns can use a "confidential ethics hotline" without fear of retaliation.

...

Several of Canada's big banks do have their own whistleblower hotlines, but many employees have told Go Public they're reluctant to use them because they don't believe their calls would be anonymous.

I feel that this story is just piggybacking on the (valid) Wells-Fargo scandal in the US.  Of course there are abusive managers in these organizations, but isn't that to be expected in a huge organization ?

I fear that CBC is pushing these stories to try to be relevant and the banks are an easy target.  

[Altai]

I hate it when someones try to sell me something. If I need something you sell, dont worry, I will find you. If I feel that you are trying to sell me somethings with an accent taught in marketing schools, I will just call the security to kick you out. 

So here an important trade rule. Never ask someone that whether or not they are interested with your product. You just be sure making enough ads and be always around.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Altai

[Moonlight Graham]

Most banks, and the big banks, are disgusting predators.  I want them to be absolutely slaughtered in the press.

Michael, have you been reading the articles on this story?  They are being highly pressured to lie to consumers to hit sales targets.  Investment banking rules have seen mild improvements lately due to regulation, but they are also predatory.  Banks obviously need to be even more tightly regulated.

As someone who apologizes for big banks and roots on the surveillance state, I fine some of your political positions mind-boggling.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Moonlight Graham

[Michael Hardner]

17 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1) They are being highly pressured to lie to consumers to hit sales targets.   

2) As someone who apologizes for big banks and roots on the surveillance state, I fine some of your political positions mind-boggling.

1) How many instances though ?  As described, there is a snitch line and an HR department to address these problems.

2) Don't fine me !  I won't pay !   In any case, I'm an independent thinker.  Successful states strike a balance, which is difficult, but it's possible if thoughtful citizens also use balance when they're considering problems and solutions.

[Moonlight Graham]

17 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) How many instances though ?  As described, there is a snitch line and an HR department to address these problems.

You think the HR department cares?  They're under the same pressures as the other managers....profit, profit.  Don't be naive Michael, I've had enough interactions with banks to know they're wolves who will do and say anything they can to get into my wallet.

[Moonlight Graham]

The only reason i'd call this a non-scandal is it's so painfully obvious, i'm surprised why it's even news.

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Don't be naive Michael, I've had enough interactions with banks ...

Excuse me?  Have you worked for one in a management capacity?

[Moonlight Graham]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

Excuse me?  Have you worked for one in a management capacity?

AHA.  You're darn right I haven't and never will.  What I have done is sat down with people who work for banks, including managers, and watch them lie in front of my face in order to steal my personal information and my money.  This comes from the very top.

[Michael Hardner]

37 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

AHA.  You're darn right I haven't and never will.   

Ok, well it doesn't work that way.  

Anyway, ask yourself how you would stop this practice from happening from a legal standpoint.

[GostHacked]

Mike, are you serious you cannot see the issue here?

[GostHacked]

The thing is will selling, is that they are pushed to sell you services you DO NOT NEED.

[Michael Hardner]

I see an "issue" - an employee was bullied, pushed to oversell products, and a manager acted like an idiot.  What I don't see is a scandal.

It literally made national news that there are ***holes working at a bank ?

[GostHacked]

9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I see an "issue" - an employee was bullied, pushed to oversell products, and a manager acted like an idiot.  What I don't see is a scandal.

It literally made national news that there are ***holes working at a bank ?

The scandal is you are being overcharged for services you don't need in the first place. Buy there are suckers everywhere, were you one of those suckers? How can you be sure?

[Michael Hardner]

20 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

The scandal is you are being overcharged for services you don't need in the first place.

Ok, so you agree with me.

Quote

...were you one of those suckers? How can you be sure?

I don't accept bad service and I shut down accounts if I am bothered too much.

[Moonlight Graham]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Ok, well it doesn't work that way.  

Anyway, ask yourself how you would stop this practice from happening from a legal standpoint.

If it's already illegal to pressure people to lie, charge the banks with a crime.

I don't have a problem with offering to sell products.  It needs to be done in an ethical way though.

[Michael Hardner]

18 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1) If it's already illegal to pressure people to lie, charge the banks with a crime.

2) I don't have a problem with offering to sell products.  It needs to be done in an ethical way though.

1) I don't think it is.

2) Salespeople tend to push things you don't need.  Don't believe me ?  Answer your landline any evening.

[Moonlight Graham]

42 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

2) Salespeople tend to push things you don't need.  Don't believe me ?  Answer your landline any evening.

They're not trying to sell you a new dish set or a new BBQ.  We're talking about crappy investment products that suck your wealth to profit the banks, or mortgages people are convinced into that banks know they can't afford, or people with credit card debt problems who are convinced to have their limit upped so banks can get more interest $$ from them.

Yes ultimately it's up to the consumer to know a good deal from a bad deal, but this is still predatory.  This is the same kind of thing that ruined the US housing market.  They're taking advantage of people who just aren't that educated on finance and the banks know this and exploit it.  What kind of monster would push their employees to sell an old lady a product that's going to suck away her retirement savings when she clearly has no clue the deal is bad?  Would you do that job?  Most people at the bank think that if they speak up, they'll lose their jobs.

Bankers and car salesmen have a special spot in hell waiting for them.  I'm sorry I'm not going to defend salesmen trying to rip people off.

[GostHacked]

7 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

They're not trying to sell you a new dish set or a new BBQ.  We're talking about crappy investment products that suck your wealth to profit the banks, or mortgages people are convinced into that banks know they can't afford, or people with credit card debt problems who are convinced to have their limit upped so banks can get more interest $$ from them.

Bank products are much different than most other places. I am supposed to get paid/compensated to store my money in a bank. Does that happen? And who takes responsibility when an investment fails and you lose money? They are playing with your money and my money for their own gains while charging us each step of the way.

[Moonlight Graham]

10 hours ago, GostHacked said:

Bank products are much different than most other places. I am supposed to get paid/compensated to store my money in a bank. Does that happen? And who takes responsibility when an investment fails and you lose money? They are playing with your money and my money for their own gains while charging us each step of the way.

That's the hilarious thing isn't it.  We're lending banks our money at no charge to them (or paltry savings interest), and they have the nerve to charge us fees?  and they turn around and invest our money in the markets and make huge sums of money.  It's no wonder they're some of the most highly profitable corporations in the country.  It's an amazing business model.

[dre]

On 3/20/2017 at 7:59 PM, Michael Hardner said:

1) I don't think it is.

2) Salespeople tend to push things you don't need.  Don't believe me ?  Answer your landline any evening.

 

Banks are a bit different because people often look to them to provide advice, and because even private commercial banks are almost completely capitalized by the government/taxpayer. If they want to act like private companies thats fine... They can only lend what money is actually in their vault, the government can get out of the business of  insuring their deposits, and the BOC can stop backing banks that lend out money they don't even have.

If however banks commercial banks want to keep being funded by the tax payer, and then bailed out when they made bad decisions, they probably should not be engaging in predatory lending. Also if the banks sell credit products to people who don't need them or cant afford them that puts the economy at risk'. That's exactly what caused the recession in 2007.

That's why this SHOULD be a scandal. 

Banks should either be public or private. Right now commercial banks are basically public, so they shouldnt act like they are private. Investment banks ARE private and they sell credit products using their own money, so they can do whatever the hell they want.

[Michael Hardner]

15 minutes ago, dre said:

If however banks commercial banks want to keep being funded by the tax payer, and then bailed out when they made bad decisions, they probably should not be engaging in predatory lending.

I agree with you, except that this sounded to me like much ado about nothing.  Selling extra products such as a line of credit isn't predatory lending as far as I can tell.  But maybe I'm wrong - let me know what you think.  My take is that this was the CBC showing its relevance by aping an American scandal.

[dre]

33 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I agree with you, except that this sounded to me like much ado about nothing.  Selling extra products such as a line of credit isn't predatory lending as far as I can tell.  But maybe I'm wrong - let me know what you think.  My take is that this was the CBC showing its relevance by aping an American scandal.

Well I read the part about the 80 year old women getting a 150k credit line pushed on her when she just needed some tiny loan. They gave her bad advice. There could be consequences from that and if that behavior is system and theres too many credit products being given the wrong people it could cause problems. In the US they were giving loans to dogs and stuff.

Again commercial banks are not regular private company. They are funded by the taxpayer and given a role in the management of our economy. They should not try to sell people things they dont need.

[Michael Hardner]

17 minutes ago, dre said:

Well I read the part about the 80 year old women getting a 150k credit line pushed on her when she just needed some tiny loan.  

You're right, that sounds ... unCanadian ?  I don't know, but still doesn't sound like worthy of a national scandal... but sure.

[dre]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

You're right, that sounds ... unCanadian ?  I don't know, but still doesn't sound like worthy of a national scandal... but sure.

That depends on how often it happens and how systemic this is. The worry of course is that the banks are trying to dump a lot of credit products on people that dont need them or cant afford them.

Nobody thought it was scandalous when banks were loaning 1/2 a million dollars to people who had 50k per year incomes either... but look where THAT got us. 

Also YOU are the one using the word Scandal. I read the CBC article and I didnt think it was written in a way that was overly sensational or alarmist. People are reporting that their jobs are being threatened if they fail to sell products. Scandal or not, do you think its something that should not be reported?

 

[Michael Hardner]

Absolutely, it should be reported.