SpankyMcFarland Posted August 28, 2018 Report Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) My basic point is that I don't see anything uniquely wicked about Iran. Look at KSA, its beheadings, and mistreatment of foreign workers and women; any of the Stans with their vicious dictators most of us have never heard of; China and its minorities e.g. the Uighurs who recently featured in a UN report; Russia in Chechnya; Egypt and many other African countries; and so on. Edited August 28, 2018 by SpankyMcFarland 1 Quote
CITIZEN_2015 Posted August 28, 2018 Report Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) 19 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: My basic point is that I don't see anything uniquely wicked about Iran. Iran is a great country with very friendly people but it is the occupying Iran regime who survives with terrorizing its people and threats of jails and executions and intimidation and beatings and torture and who jails human right activists, lawyers, students, workers, farmers, union leaders, religious and racial minorities, scientists, environmentalists, women, dual citizens, assassination of opposition figures at home (including their own like a former president) and everyone who in a slightest manner oppose them and even abroad, assisting murderous regimes like Assad in Syria to massacre his own people ... and an imposed hated regime who feeds on hate and war and has completely ruined a nation and a country and stole nation's wealth and has resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths and destroyed the land and sea and air and ..... you want me to go on? I can write a book on atrocities this brutal regime has commented against its own people and other people (like Syrians or Lebanese) and the whole world. Hitler will be turning in his grave out of fear with a full disclosure A blind can see all these atrocities past 40 years starting with taking Americans hostage in their own embassy and then mass crimes against Iranian people like an enemy occupying force. If you don't see anything weird then you must be blinder than a totally blind person. Edited August 28, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted August 28, 2018 Report Posted August 28, 2018 49 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: Iran is a great country with very friendly people but it is the occupying Iran regime who survives with terrorizing its people and threats of jails and executions and intimidation and beatings and torture and who jails human right activists, lawyers, students, workers, farmers, union leaders, religious and racial minorities, scientists, environmentalists, women, dual citizens, assassination of opposition figures at home (including their own like a former president) and everyone who in a slightest manner oppose them and even abroad, assisting murderous regimes like Assad in Syria to massacre his own people ... and an imposed hated regime who feeds on hate and war and has completely ruined a nation and a country and stole nation's wealth and has resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths and destroyed the land and sea and air and ..... you want me to go on? I can write a book on atrocities this brutal regime has commented against its own people and other people (like Syrians or Lebanese) and the whole world. Hitler will be turning in his grave out of fear with a full disclosure A blind can see all these atrocities past 40 years starting with taking Americans hostage in their own embassy and then mass crimes against Iranian people like an enemy occupying force. If you don't see anything weird then you must be blinder than a totally blind person. What you’re describing is fairly standard for that part of the world. Quote
CITIZEN_2015 Posted August 28, 2018 Report Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: What you’re describing is fairly standard for that part of the world. Not so. Not to THIS brutal state. A regime who even spies on citizens inside their bedrooms and homes as what they drink or wear or do in the PRIVACY of their lives. A regime who so openly threatens its citizens with executions if they come onto streets and simply protest. A regime who so openly beats up women and shoots or hangs children in public. A regime who survives on terror and executions and feeds on war and gate and create enemies and wars to survive longer. In that region we also have semi democracies like India and Turkey and Israel (at least for Jewish citizens) though there are still undemocratic states like Iraq and Saudi Arabia but not to this extend of brutality and remember that Iran's society is much more progressive than other regional dictatorships. Therefore there is a wide gap between the nation and the old aging apes in charge of the occupying regime unlike Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan or Iraq which in the latter cases their governments would be the best they can get as democracy would be meaningless for them as their society is not ready for it as yet but Iran has had periods of democracy (and if it wasn't for 1953 CIA-British coup it would have been a democracy now). Iran was a complete social democracy even after 1953 under the Shah when many citizens adopted western lifestyles. Only political activism against the Shah was not allowed however nothing compare to what it has become now. Edited August 29, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted August 28, 2018 Report Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) The situation in Xin Jiang is impossible to clarify because of China’s oppressive policies but the Uighurs are definitely being badly treated by any standard: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45147972 And the Muslim nations say nothing, even assisting China in its sectarian campaign: https://www.businessinsider.com/why-muslim-countries-arent-criticizing-china-uighur-repression-2018-8 And that’s just one story from China. Edited August 28, 2018 by SpankyMcFarland Quote
CITIZEN_2015 Posted August 29, 2018 Report Posted August 29, 2018 (edited) China is not in the region (Middle East) unless you consider planet earth as your defined region. Even so you picked the wrong country or regime to compare to Iran regime as a worse example as it definitely not. It is not nearly as bad overall. China too is a dictatorship but nothing compare to Iran where 90% of population is under extreme form of repression. The minority that you mentioned is a small minority of China's population and as sad as that is there is no comparison. Chinese government at least provides good economic conditions for its people. Its economy is the fastest growing economy in the world. The nation of China (over 90%) is BY FAR BETTER OFF today compared to 40 years ago. The Chinese regime as dictator as it may seem brought prosperity to its people and that is in contrast to Iran regime which past 40 years completely destroyed the lives of its nation and destroyed Iran's economy and purposely kept the nation in poverty and deliberately sought war and created enemies and isolated the country and the nation so that they won't have time to think and rise up or money saved to go on a general strike and topple the hated regime. China's GDP will soon exceed that of the US and all thanks to the Chinese government and this is in contrast to Iran regime where the nation's wealth was cut in half just in 2018 and poverty and hunger is widespread and unemployment and inflation rapidly rising and this is in the richest country in the world where it has more oil and gas than the United States of America. Edited August 29, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted September 25, 2018 Report Posted September 25, 2018 (edited) On 8/29/2018 at 2:17 AM, CITIZEN_2015 said: China is not in the region (Middle East) unless you consider planet earth as your defined region. Even so you picked the wrong country or regime to compare to Iran regime as a worse example as it definitely not. It is not nearly as bad overall. China too is a dictatorship but nothing compare to Iran where 90% of population is under extreme form of repression. The minority that you mentioned is a small minority of China's population and as sad as that is there is no comparison. Chinese government at least provides good economic conditions for its people. Its economy is the fastest growing economy in the world. The nation of China (over 90%) is BY FAR BETTER OFF today compared to 40 years ago. The Chinese regime as dictator as it may seem brought prosperity to its people and that is in contrast to Iran regime which past 40 years completely destroyed the lives of its nation and destroyed Iran's economy and purposely kept the nation in poverty and deliberately sought war and created enemies and isolated the country and the nation so that they won't have time to think and rise up or money saved to go on a general strike and topple the hated regime. China's GDP will soon exceed that of the US and all thanks to the Chinese government and this is in contrast to Iran regime where the nation's wealth was cut in half just in 2018 and poverty and hunger is widespread and unemployment and inflation rapidly rising and this is in the richest country in the world where it has more oil and gas than the United States of America. I’m not limiting my comparisons to the ME and China isn’t exactly on the other side of the globe either - it borders on Afghanistan. The current regime in China has been responsible for more deaths of its citizens than any in human history. That’s a fact you need to read up about before praising the People’s Republic any further. Yes, the Chinese people have prospered despite their government (as they have everywhere else in the world as well BTW) but that does not excuse the crimes committed by the state there. Again, look at the countries around Iran with an open mind and you will see poverty, bigotry, mismanagement and/or abuse of basic human rights in nearly all of them. Edited September 25, 2018 by SpankyMcFarland Quote
CITIZEN_2015 Posted September 25, 2018 Report Posted September 25, 2018 (edited) On 9/24/2018 at 8:34 PM, SpankyMcFarland said: I’m not limiting my comparisons to the ME and China isn’t exactly on the other side of the globe either - it borders on Afghanistan. The current regime in China has been responsible for more deaths of its citizens than any in human history. That’s a fact you need to read up about before praising the People’s Republic any further. Yes, the Chinese people have prospered despite their government (as they have everywhere else in the world as well BTW) but that does not excuse the crimes committed by the state there. Again, look at the countries around Iran with an open mind and you will see poverty, bigotry, mismanagement and/or abuse of basic human rights in nearly all of them. The regime is responsible for the death of one million people. That is when Iran's population was 40 or 50 million. This is 2% of population. Did Chinese regime killed 30 million people to match that? What I was saying was that even if what you say is true but at the same time with all the dictatorship they had they also brought economic prosperity to their nation. Iran regime brought BOTH death AND Destruction. Why is it so hard for you to understand this simple logic??? Yes on the other hand you remind me of two poor people in downtown Montreal I overheard the conversation while window shopping. One was complaining that he feels like he lost his life because he cannot find a job and enjoy having a car, a house and a girlfriend like other people with jobs usually have. The other one told him that he should be happy and grateful because compare to starving people of Sudan or Somalia who are starving he is much better off at least not starving!!!!!. So based on your reasoning then Iranians should be happy with their regime because Chinese regime killed more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! based on you???? Seriously!!!!!!!!!!! Edited September 26, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote
kactus Posted September 25, 2018 Report Posted September 25, 2018 Spanky, This whole comparison thing becomes irrelevant when you compare apples with oranges.... China despite what you say is growing rapidly economically and from the perspective of their influence in the world. The dire situation in Iran is untenable.... Let’s deal with realities NOW rather than become a revisionist. These fucktard mullahs in Iran have destroyed everything Iran stood for... They have no hesitation to literallly kill half the population for their own survival and keep them hostage. The Iranians were betrayed by this imported revolution 40 years ago. This does not mean that Iranians have to put up with this just because the neighbouring countries are very comfortable with islamic doctrine. This whole argument that just because other countries in the region are not doing very well therefore Iran should also be held to the same stardard is completely flawed IMO. 1 Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted September 26, 2018 Report Posted September 26, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, kactus said: Spanky, This whole comparison thing becomes irrelevant when you compare apples with oranges.... China despite what you say is growing rapidly economically and from the perspective of their influence in the world. The dire situation in Iran is untenable.... Let’s deal with realities NOW rather than become a revisionist. These fucktard mullahs in Iran have destroyed everything Iran stood for... They have no hesitation to literallly kill half the population for their own survival and keep them hostage. The Iranians were betrayed by this imported revolution 40 years ago. This does not mean that Iranians have to put up with this just because the neighbouring countries are very comfortable with islamic doctrine. This whole argument that just because other countries in the region are not doing very well therefore Iran should also be held to the same stardard is completely flawed IMO. I’m not denying the economic progress in China but that does not change the fact that a regime which murdered millions is still in power and has never acknowledged its awful crimes. Imagine if the Nazis still ran Germany. I’m sure that country would produce excellent cars no matter who was in charge. Yes, the regime in Iran is bad but there’s nothing uniquely evil about it that justifies the hysterical rhetoric emanating from Washington. This thread is anout the US and Iran. I think the current belligerent American position is harmful to Western interests and has produced an unnecessary schism in NATO. Europe should not give in to American bullying on Iran. A country should be judged by its neighbours. Look at the Arabs, Turkey, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, even Russia. Where are the well-run, prosperous democracies? Given the innate talent of its people, I am optimistic about Iran but peaceful transformation into something better will probably take decades, while violent revolution could set things back for an even longer period. Edited September 26, 2018 by SpankyMcFarland Quote
CITIZEN_2015 Posted September 26, 2018 Report Posted September 26, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: Yes, the regime in Iran is bad but there’s nothing uniquely evil about it They are bad!!!!!! Really? Harper was bad. Obama was bad. There is no word to describe Iran regime in the vocabulary. Even evil is a complete understatement. This shows you know nothing about Iran regime and details of what they have done past 40 years to Iranian people in particular but also to the whole world. As one example (out of millions) do you know of any regime in the world who raped 13 year old girls in prisons (whose only crime was selling a newspaper) the night before their executions so that they don't die virgin (and to their belief go to heaven as a result)???? Or brainwash or force 13 year old boys to run through minefields and blow them up?? Edited September 26, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote
kactus Posted September 26, 2018 Report Posted September 26, 2018 7 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: I’m not denying the economic progress in China but that does not change the fact that a regime which murdered millions is still in power and has never acknowledged its awful crimes. Imagine if the Nazis still ran Germany. I’m sure that country would produce excellent cars no matter who was in charge. Yes, the regime in Iran is bad but there’s nothing uniquely evil about it that justifies the hysterical rhetoric emanating from Washington. This thread is anout the US and Iran. I think the current belligerent American position is harmful to Western interests and has produced an unnecessary schism in NATO. Europe should not give in to American bullying on Iran. A country should be judged by its neighbours. Look at the Arabs, Turkey, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, even Russia. Where are the well-run, prosperous democracies? Given the innate talent of its people, I am optimistic about Iran but peaceful transformation into something better will probably take decades, while violent revolution could set things back for an even longer period. Spanky, I have alot of respect for your views but with all due respect you are not listening... Your notion of taking a revisionary POV regarding China’s atrocity in the past is a position that is futile to hold any conversation. By that standard I can argue that the whole foundation of US of A is based on genocide of its natives and using them as slaves to build the country. Whilst this is true and it is good acknowledging that (which btw countries like UK doesn’t want to recognise its past in slavery) we need to recognise the fact that situation NOW is very different. Iran was a country with 2500 history of monarchy. Whilst some kings were a disservice some like Shah and his father Reza Shah genuinely and passionately loved Iranians of any kind and their country. The savages that are ruling Iran NOW are aliens that are loathed and hated by Iranians for the atrocities they are committing against mankind and very much loved by countries like UK and weak leaders such as Theresa May who love licking Mullah’s asses for business... 1 Quote
DogOnPorch Posted September 26, 2018 Report Posted September 26, 2018 1 hour ago, kactus said: Iran was a country with 2500 history of monarchy. Whilst some kings were a disservice some like Shah and his father Reza Shah genuinely and passionately loved Iranians of any kind and their country. The savages that are ruling Iran NOW are aliens that are loathed and hated by Iranians for the atrocities they are committing against mankind and very much loved by countries like UK and weak leaders such as Theresa May who love licking Mullah’s asses for business... Like it or not, Reza courted the Nazis to the point of Stalin invading. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
kactus Posted September 26, 2018 Report Posted September 26, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said: Like it or not, Reza courted the Nazis to the point of Stalin invading. If it wasn’t for Reza Shah Iranian jews would have spent their time in Auschwitz or Krackow.....Same predicament that hungarian jews encountered that were handed over to Nazis. Do you like the current mullahs? Edited September 26, 2018 by kactus Quote
DogOnPorch Posted September 26, 2018 Report Posted September 26, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, kactus said: If it wasn’t for Reza Shah Iranian jews would have spent their time in Auschwitz or Krackow.....Same predicament that hungarian jews encountered that were handed over to Nazis. Do you like the current mullahs? Correction: if it was not for Churchill and Stalin, Iran's Jews would have been given Special Handling. As for the Mullahs...you can pretend I like them all you wish. Edited September 26, 2018 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
kactus Posted September 26, 2018 Report Posted September 26, 2018 You being deliberately obtuse.... Why don’t you want to accept the fact that Iran was neutral in WWII? I don’t think anyone here would have endorsed the doctrine of communism under Stalin back then. But then you are free to support him if you wish. It is well documented within the Holocaust memorial journal that Reza Shah did not support the Nazi ideology of “über Mensch” and has time and time again argued against this Nazi ideology that Iranian jews are Iranians and have the same rights. I have already shown you the link for this on another thread “Iran needs some democracy.” Quote
DogOnPorch Posted September 26, 2018 Report Posted September 26, 2018 43 minutes ago, kactus said: You being deliberately obtuse.... Why don’t you want to accept the fact that Iran was neutral in WWII? I don’t think anyone here would have endorsed the doctrine of communism under Stalin back then. But then you are free to support him if you wish. It is well documented within the Holocaust memorial journal that Reza Shah did not support the Nazi ideology of “über Mensch” and has time and time again argued against this Nazi ideology that Iranian jews are Iranians and have the same rights. I have already shown you the link for this on another thread “Iran needs some democracy.” Iran was a lot of things during WW2...Neutral wasn't one of them. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
CITIZEN_2015 Posted September 26, 2018 Report Posted September 26, 2018 6 hours ago, DogOnPorch said: Like it or not, Reza courted the Nazis to the point of Stalin invading. First off all it is Reza Shah the great so be respectful or you will receive disrespect in kind. When you purposely are disrespectful to a great historic leader you are disrespectful to the entire nation and second I know your uncle was a nazi but why your obsession with Nazis?? Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted September 26, 2018 Report Posted September 26, 2018 11 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: They are bad!!!!!! Really? Harper was bad. Obama was bad. There is no word to describe Iran regime in the vocabulary. Even evil is a complete understatement. This shows you know nothing about Iran regime and details of what they have done past 40 years to Iranian people in particular but also to the whole world. As one example (out of millions) do you know of any regime in the world who raped 13 year old girls in prisons (whose only crime was selling a newspaper) the night before their executions so that they don't die virgin (and to their belief go to heaven as a result)???? Or brainwash or force 13 year old boys to run through minefields and blow them up?? I worked with a member of the Rajavi family in the early eighties and he showed me hundreds of photos of victims murdered by the regime, so I’ve been following this story for a while. Quote
CITIZEN_2015 Posted September 27, 2018 Report Posted September 27, 2018 23 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: I worked with a member of the Rajavi family in the early eighties and he showed me hundreds of photos of victims murdered by the regime, so I’ve been following this story for a while. Did they show you pictures of raped teenage girls before and after their executions by guards? Or blown up pieces of teenage boys? If not then no you haven't been following this tragedy (and it is NOT a story btw. It is tragically thousands of real life cases). Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted September 28, 2018 Report Posted September 28, 2018 20 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: Did they show you pictures of raped teenage girls before and after their executions by guards? Or blown up pieces of teenage boys? If not then no you haven't been following this tragedy (and it is NOT a story btw. It is tragically thousands of real life cases). You need to read more about countries other than Iran. Such atrocities are not confined to there as I have tried to explain to you. Quote
CITIZEN_2015 Posted September 28, 2018 Report Posted September 28, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: You need to read more about countries other than Iran. Such atrocities are not confined to there as I have tried to explain to you. I am not denying that atrocities being committed around the world and the middle east in particular, but I have been trying to explained to you (and have failed obviously) three points. One that the fact that atrocities being committed elsewhere is no excuse not to condemn or try to play down violent atrocities being committed by iran regime and second, the atrocities being committed by Iran regime is much more violent and severe and widespread than any other dictatorship. They even monitor activities in citizen's' bedrooms for God's sake and terrorize a nation in public with death threats including children not to mention to have eliminated 2% of population including many children and spreading terror and war in the whole region siding with other dictatorships like the one in Russia and murderous Assad in Syria and terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. And third unlike China or most other dictatorships who brought economic prosperity to their nation Iran regime brought both death and destruction and poverty with most severe form of violent dictatorship. Edited September 28, 2018 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote
Rue Posted September 28, 2018 Report Posted September 28, 2018 On 8/27/2018 at 9:22 PM, SpankyMcFarland said: My basic point is that I don't see anything uniquely wicked about Iran. Look at KSA, its beheadings, and mistreatment of foreign workers and women; any of the Stans with their vicious dictators most of us have never heard of; China and its minorities e.g. the Uighurs who recently featured in a UN report; Russia in Chechnya; Egypt and many other African countries; and so on. Uniquely wicked. That's an interesting way to justify trivializing what is going on in Iran. Its not uniquely wicked. One can only guess why you think wicked has to be unique before it becomes significant enough to criticize. Quote
Rue Posted September 28, 2018 Report Posted September 28, 2018 1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said: You need to read more about countries other than Iran. Such atrocities are not confined to there as I have tried to explain to you. You are engaging in trivialization. The abundance of evil does not detract from its significance. Quote
Queenmandy85 Posted September 28, 2018 Report Posted September 28, 2018 In a comparison between the US and Iran, one consideration is that Iran has not invaded another country in 282 years. The US was not even a country at that time. How many countries has the US invaded in that time? OTOH, given a choice of living in Iran or the US, I would choose the US in less than 1billionth of a heartbeat. Maybe I could even get Bush-Cheney to show me around. ;-) Quote A Conservative stands for God, King and Country
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