Palestine - Israel issue / Information Pool

[Altai]

Update added to the OP.

- BC 1200 : There is a people called Philistines living at the coastal sides of Palestinian lands. 

Source: http://bit.ly/2j0rV24

[drummindiver]

 “revival of Jewish national homeland” (26), “

"generation fought so hard so that ours could live in a democracy” (58),

“heroic missions” (105), and “my people fought so hard to win it back” (119).

Yes,  he is in agreement that the Israel had to fight.

[Altai]

Update added to the OP

- Today's Lebanese people are genetically descendants of ancient Canaanites and Phoenicians, so the first peoples who were living in today's Palestinian lands.


Source: http://bit.ly/2jn4I9S

Edited January 12, 2017 by Altai

[JamesHackerMP]

So basically, Altai, youre sayiing that the Palestinians have more right to the land comprising the State of Israel than the Jewish settlers from the Zionist movement?

[Rue]

To the Honourable James Hacker, MP, Maryland Riding:

I was just sitting here drooling and  wouldn't have been able to understand Alatai's thesis . Thanks for  your assistance and subtle restatement complete  with the cues: " Jewish settlers from the Zionist movement ".

Why not cut to the chase and say Zionist Jews. Oh come on now. Say it with me-Jews who believe they have an equal right to a Jewish state as Muslim people on the West Bank believe they have a right to a Muslim state. Oh go on say it Mr. MP. While you are at it you know where Judea and Somaria were and still are?  Here's a word for you-" Judenrein"...., oh you know....a land free of Jews. The West Bank should be Judenrein. Go on say it. Zionist Jews have no right to West Bank land. It should be Judenrein like Jordan which was illegally created as a Judenrein state from 90% of the land in the geographic area called Palestine for what you call "Palestinians" and up until the Black Sabbath uprising offered any Palestinian as long as they were not Jewish, citizenship. Know why it changed? Oh go on guess. Arafat tried to kill Hussein and take over Jordan and failed, So he was thrown out. That's when he decided to refer to the word Palestinian. Up until then he ridiculed the word.

Say Mr. MP once we are cuing people, what happened to  in Hebron in 1929? What happened to Jews in 1948 in Gush Etzion, Kalya, and Atarot.Did Altai ever discuss that? Did they ever mention it in "Maryland"? Did anyone mention to you what happened to Jews in the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem in 1948? Nah. She seems to have ingored that. So did Obama and Kerry and Altai. So did the world in 1929 and 1948.

Oh come on let's really  talk about those Jews and that is what they are JEWS, putting Zionist in front of the name doesn't suddenly stop them from being Jews who are descend from  other Jews have always lived on the West Bank since ancient days. True between 1948 to 1967 Jordan massacered and expelled as many as they could but hey now....you know Jews.... you can gas them, wipe them out, but they are like Energizer bunnies, they just keep going like their tanks did in the desert wars.

In your Altain history lessons does it state that the West Bank was never part of any nation and is still not part of any nation? In your Altai history lessons is it ever explained how Jews suddenly have no descending connection to the Middle East because they are Zionist-it just magically goes poof?

You ever been to the West Bank? Of course not. If you had been you would realize the actual Jewish settlements on the West bank constitute about 2% of the actual land. Maybe 3% 75-80% of those settlers are in parts of Jerusalem the Palestinians claim as their exclusive own.

Say where were you when Israel offered 90% of that back? Where were you when Arafat told the world this was not a dispute about the West Bank and never was, its about taking back all of Israel and Jordan as well as the West Bank for a Sharia law Judenrein state,. You seem to have skipped that and the fact that Hamas and the PA both have stated over and over never will they recognize a Jewish state or the Jordanian one and never will they stop until they get it all back and turn it into a Judenrein Sharia law state. Altain history kind of skips over that fact. It you see pretends settlements are the only issue.

There are about 122 Jewish communities on the West Bank. You've never seen one Mr. MP. You have no idea what size they are. If you did you would know how most  have fewer than 1,000 citizens, 40 percent have fewer than 500 and several have only a few dozen residents. C There's been five settlements have been built since 1990. Also 70–80 percent of the Jews on the West Bank  could be brought within Israel’s borders up to 1967.

Hey we have had many threads on this. Someone always wans to show me a map showing Jews spreading like some kind of cancer all over the West Bank. Hey one esteemed poster refers to Zionism as a spreading cancer that needs to be wiped out but claims this doesn't mean he wants Zionists wiped out just Zionism. Ah it brings back memories of the good old days when Josef Goebels made wonderful documentaries showing how Jews  swarm and infest the world no different than rats. But hey, you used the word Zionist in front of the word Jew so not to worry. Yep but that word Zionism or Zionist in front of the word Jew or in place of the word Jew, and hey now, its all o.k.

Am I done. Oh not quite. Israel offered to withdra ffrom 98% of the West Bank. Arafat ripped up that agreement. Abbas stands up in his assembly giving standing ovations to death to Israel Chants. What you think this is about? You think the knifings are by people who want to live peacefully with Jews and only stab them because they live on the West Bank? How about you have Altai recite the constitutions of Hamas, Hezbollah, the PA, the Palestinian Front For the Liberation of Palestine, Al Quaeda, ISIl-Daesh, Intifada, for starters. Ask her how much money a year Iran and Turkey  and Saudi Arabia spend on financing terrorists on the West Bank and in Gaza. Hey while you are at it,  Altai skipped the following time lines...

1-from 1949–67, when Jews were forbidden to live on the West Bank, the Arabs refused to make peace with Israel;

2- from 1967–77, the Labor Party established only a few strategic settlements in the territories, yet the Arabs were unwilling to negotiate peace with Israel;

3-In 1977, months after a Likud government committed to greater settlement activity took power, Egyptian President Sadat went to Jerusalem and later signed a peace treaty with Israel. Incidentally, Israeli settlements existed in the Sinai and those were removed as part of the agreement with Egypt;

4-in 1978 Israel froze settlement building for three months, hoping the gesture would entice other Arabs to join the Camp David peace process, but none would;

5- in 1994, Jordan signed a peace agreement with Israel and settlements were not an issue for Jordan;.

6-between June 1992 and June 1996, under Labor-led governments, the Jewish population in the territories grew by approximately 50 percent and the PA signed the Oslo accords in September 1993 and  the Oslo 2 agreement in September 1995 which would  implement giving back 95% of the West Bank to the PA; then Arafat clause by clause broke the agreement and denounced it after getting caught off guard on South African radio admitting he lied and the PA never had any intention of making peace and would never stop until it took back all of Israel and Jordan-he not only got caught but then when caught announced in a speech Clinton and Israel should have known he was lying!-also see 9;;

7-in 2000, Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered to dismantle dozens of settlements, but the Palestinians still would not agree to end the conflict.

8-In August 2005, Israel evacuated all of the settlements in the Gaza Strip and four in Northern Samaria, but terror attacks continued;

9-in 2008, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert offered to withdraw from approximately 94 percent of the West Bank, but the deal was rejected by Arafat who stated to the world be;

10-in 2010, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu froze settlement construction for 10 months and the Palestinians refused to engage in negotiations until the period was nearly over  agreeing to talk, they walked out when Netanyahu refused to prolong the freeze.

Hey you know why they walked out? You know what that damn Netanyahu had the nerve to say. Imagine this. That Zionist Jew said, if the Palestinians wanted him to  withdraw the IDF from the West Bank to 1967 borders which would again expose them to terrorist attacks in the centre of the country they would need two preconditions; I-that terrorists disarm and denounce terrorism before they sit down to talk peace just like the IRA did; and II-that Hamas and the PA recognize that Jews in Israel have the same right to a Jewish state of Israel as Muslims do all their Muslim sharia law states.

Oh hey now that was called unreasonable. Kerry and Obama said Netanyahu deliberately leaked a story to the press referring o Netanyahu as a chicken because he wouldn't withdraw to unsafe borders without a precondition that terrorists be disarmed.

A chicken.

A country that withdrew from South Lebanon and within minutes of withdrawing was attacked by Hezbollah who said the only reason they were armed was that Israel wa sin Lebanon and once Israel left they would disarm. Yes the same country that unilaterally left Gaza and within minutes of leaving was under attack from both PA and Hamas terrorists from Gaza who said if Israel left they would not attack Israel.

Chicken.

A country that has fought how many wars for its survival?

Right. Chicken.

A country born of people who survived a holocaust, escaped and survived Muslim dhimmitude and massacres in the Middle East and fled to Israel with nothing, Felashie Jews who escaped massacre in Ethiopia. Yah chickens. People who have undergone terrorist attacks since the 1920's in Israel. People who fought in British units in WW2 and along with Rhodesians and Australians distinguished themselves as crack desert troops;

Chickens.

Yah I have seen these chickens. I have seen chickens under attack, in every day life and  after their heads were  blown off from a bomb placed by who? Why let me tell you. Terrorists. You know people who use civilians as shields to get them deliberately shot and killed by Israelis for photo ops. Terrorists, people who dress up as women, cripples, act as if mentally retarded and walk into crowds and go kaboom. Children as young as 4,5,6 of both sexes being used by terrorists to deliver bombs. Terrorists who use ambulances, hospitals, schools, homes. mosques as their shelter. Terrorists. But hey Netanyahu is the chicken.

Let me say it to you. Jews and Muslims and Christians, Palestinians and Israelis all have equal rights. Anyone who wants to come on this forum and push this crap there is such thing as a superior right for Palestinians to Jews or for that matter vice versa   I will challenge it. Israelis, Palestinians, they want to be able to live in peace with each other. They will one day in spite of people like you trying to divide them and suggest one side has more rights than the other. They suffer equally. Those of us who have lived there and witnessed it, know it.

Oh come on call me what I am a Zionist Jew. Think it makes me evil? All it means is I believe Jews have the same right to a state as anyone else. All it means is I believe the settlement issue can not be settled at this time because no Muslim leader let alone Arab leader will come out and say Jews have a right to Israel and be free of terror, if we expect them to pull back to 1967 borders, we haveto disarm terrorists and give up the notion of taking back Israel.

Go on cue Altai all you want. Altai is not going to ever come on this forum and state she does not believe Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state.

How about you?

Regards Rue, thrown out of Parliament, the Knesset, the Senate, the House of Representatives, the Duma and anywhere where the elected gather

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2017 by Rue

[Altai]

18 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said:

So basically, Altai, youre sayiing that the Palestinians have more right to the land comprising the State of Israel than the Jewish settlers from the Zionist movement?

Currently I dont say anything. I am still searching but as far as I have seen, Israelis are lying that they were the first people in the area. There were other people living in this area, including the ancestors of Palestinians. Then Jews seized the lands day by day and created their kingdom by suppressing other people. Lebanese people has much more right on the area than both Palestinians and Israelis because they are genetically much closer to the ancient Canaanite peoples.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Altai

[JamesHackerMP]

I do not remember any Israeli claiming to have been the first inhabitants of the region.  Throughout the history of the world, people have moved around a lot.  The Phonecians who inhabited the area in ancient times moved, too; else the state of Carthage would not have come into existence.  According to the Bible--and much of the Bible, Jewish and Christian testaments, is full of illustrations of a larger point rather than precise events and precise people--the Canaanites were in Lebanon/Palestine/Israel area first, before the children of Israel.  So I haven't heard anyone Jewish--of Israel or not--claiming they were "there first".

[JamesHackerMP]

Um....Rue? What the hell are you going on about? I didn't read your entire, rather lengthy post, because much of it seemed to mock me.  Also, if we were having a conversation face to face, I'd have to say your rather verbose and flatulent reply was motivated by "selective hearing" and gross assumption of what I was trying to say (rather than what I actually said).

And that's The Right Honourable Secretary of State for Administrative Affairs, thank you very much.

Yeah, I can see you being thrown out of the Knesset...or the House of Commons for that matter.  lol

Edited January 16, 2017 by JamesHackerMP

[Altai]

5 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said:

I do not remember any Israeli claiming to have been the first inhabitants of the region.  Throughout the history of the world, people have moved around a lot.  The Phonecians who inhabited the area in ancient times moved, too; else the state of Carthage would not have come into existence.  According to the Bible--and much of the Bible, Jewish and Christian testaments, is full of illustrations of a larger point rather than precise events and precise people--the Canaanites were in Lebanon/Palestine/Israel area first, before the children of Israel.  So I haven't heard anyone Jewish--of Israel or not--claiming they were "there first".

As far as I know, they declare ownership on the lands claiming they had a kingdom there long before because their grand grand grand father's domkey was sh.t there first while passing through. 

[JamesHackerMP]

OK I don't know that many Israelis but I doubt they really care who was there first.  They're there now.

Rue: that is basically what I said: Zionist Jews, Jewish settlers from the Zionist Movement.  (Kind of like Judean People's Front vs. People's Front of Judea.)

Ch****, I don't know how that offended you enough to mock me.  What the hell did I say wrong???

Edited January 16, 2017 by JamesHackerMP

[Altai]

2 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said:

OK I don't know that many Israelis but I doubt they really care who was there first.  They're there now.

Yes, this is why Israel is an illegal state. 

By the way, today a person detained in my city while trying to sell a 800 years old book written in Hebrew.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Altai

[JamesHackerMP]

Well, define an "illegal state"? Is America an illegal state? We seized a load of land from the indigenous tribes already living here.  Should the UN call for the disbandment of the United States?

[drummindiver]

13 minutes ago, JamesHackerMP said:

Well, define an "illegal state"? Is America an illegal state? We seized a load of land from the indigenous tribes already living here.  Should the UN call for the disbandment of the United States?

Altais' beloved Turkey is also illegal as people from middle Africa were there first.

[Ash74]

48 minutes ago, JamesHackerMP said:

Well, define an "illegal state"? Is America an illegal state? We seized a load of land from the indigenous tribes already living here.  Should the UN call for the disbandment of the United States?

She has told all of us not of native decent to get out of the western hemisphere. 

She is not the most rational of people but she starts great debates. 

 

[dialamah]

5 minutes ago, Ash74 said:

She has told all of us not of native decent to get out of the western hemisphere. 

She is not the most rational of people but she starts great debates. 

 

And she's putting lots of people on ignore, which means she'll eventually be talking to herself - whilst everyone else debates around her.  

 

[Ash74]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

And she's putting lots of people on ignore, which means she'll eventually be talking to herself - whilst everyone else debates around her.  

 

Agreed. But she is getting conversations going. 

 I do not think I have agreed with a thing she has said but she has gotten a ton of conversion . Yes it would be nice if she shared some sources that were not straight from the Tokyo Rose of the Turkish empire but she is entertaining

[bush_cheney2004]

Nobody has the right to any land...but they can try to defend possession.   That includes Americans and Canadians.

[Rue]

22 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said:

OK I don't know that many Israelis but I doubt they really care who was there first.  They're there now.

Rue: that is basically what I said: Zionist Jews, Jewish settlers from the Zionist Movement.  (Kind of like Judean People's Front vs. People's Front of Judea.)

Ch****, I don't know how that offended you enough to mock me.  What the hell did I say wrong???

To:          The Honourable James Hacker, MP, etc.

FROM:    The less than Honourable Rue

Hey now. Let's see if I got the words right, " Zionist Jew, Jewish settlers from the Zionist movement (Kind of like Judean People's Front vs. People's Front of Judea."

and

"OK I don't know that many Israelis but I doubt they really care who was there first.  They're there now"

and

"Ch****, I don't know how that offended you enough to mock me.  What the hell did I say wrong??? "

To start with if you don't know "that many Israelis" and for that matter "Palestinians" you might want to consider that your choice of words come across as contemptuous to both.

Most of today's Israelis have been born in Israel. They are referred to as "Sabras". They have been born in Israel like most Palestinians today have been born on the West Bank or in Palestinian refugee camps where they are not allowed citizenship in the countries with the camps because of the policies of thoseArab nations which refuse them citizenship if they ask and is something never discussed as part of the current tensions and conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.

Israelis can be Muslim, Christian, Druze, Bahaii, atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Taoist and most are "Jews" but the term "Jew" does not automatically mean they all thinkl the same, are the same, or pray the same way. Jews range from atheist to ultra-orthodozx anti Zionist and ultra-orthodox Zionist.

There are about 25,000 Jews in Israel who use the Bible and certain passages from the Bible to then fuse or mix with their political beliefs as to where Jews have rights to live.

Jewish people including Israel Jews are an ethnoreligious group. Our definition is fluid and it continually changes. It is a collective identity. It includes ethnicity, culture, language, religious and political belief of all kinds and variations. The most important feature it can be said to have is that all its people in this identity as diverse and different as they are, share a common legacy of being hated or discriminated for being Jewish.

Jews in the Muslim world were defined as dhimmi and still are-second class people. We are defined as inferior and forced to live in ghettos imposed by Muslim states which do not separate Sharia Law (Muslim religious law) from the state organ. Jews in the Christian world were treated the same way by Christian states which did not disconnect from their connections to the Christian religion and so implemented laws that discriminated against Jews, i.e., prevented us from owning land or entering certain professions.

Jews are descended from Israelites  or Hebrews. Our alleged original leader Abraham came from somewhere in Iran, and his religious beliefs would be a variation of Zoroastreanism which would have originated from the same ancestors as the Hindus and this is why  the Kabala a mystical book of Jewish concepts is very similar if not pretty much the same as Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism in how it defines energy, existence, purpose, the concept of negative and positive energy clashing to then be able to create meaning and purpose from the reconciliation of the clash of the opposing energy streams. Things I doubt you care to understand.

Christians originally were Jews. The original Christians or Agnostic Christians would have called themselves Jews not Christians and they used the sign of Pisces or the fish. Their leader. Jehuva, challenged the corruption of the hierarchy of the Jewish Priesthood. He was a Rabbiah (learned one) who t aught Teekam Olem from the Talmud the Jewish principle  of Teekam Olam, the concept ofdoing positive things which it is said is the way to connect to and spread God an abstract concept of an infinite process of sharing. It is said he learned medicine in India and brought back his knowledge of  medicine and Hindu and Buddhist teachings and mixed them into Judaism which would be very compatible. Agnostic Christians make no reference to him being a Messiah but he would have preached everyone is a brother and sister who comes from "God".

The creation of Jesus as THE messiah is in fact a concept King Constantine of Rome brought to the religion when he ordered scholars during his era in Rome to fuse a Pagan tale of a man brought to earth to saver the world to the rest of the unwritten Christian beliefs in Rome that were circulating underground. This prevented a civil war and enabled Constantine to create a central organ called a Church and the device known as confessional to allow his Priests to keep constant tabs on what people thought to control them.

Christians like Jews come from the same places in the Middle East.

So do Muslims descendants of Ishmael the son of Abraham. Jacob the son of Abraham from his wife is said to be the procreator of the original Hebrews and Ishamel the son of one of his Mistresses as the procreator of the original Muslims.

Muhammad was said to be someone who in his sleep would say things, his wife would then write them down on leaves, and then others then would re-write those sayings into supposed laws and passages.

The point is all 3 religions originate in the Middle East. All 3 are dependent on a male figure who leads his followers from a "wilderness" to a supposed better way of life.

Anyone who studies theology realizes this and would know from archeology Jews came, then Christians, then Muslims and Arabs is a word that referred to the people of the Arabian peninsula who could have been from any of these religions.

Jews like Muslims and Christians have always lived in he Middle East. They came thousands of years before Muslims. During the second millennium BCE is when Jews formed the original land of Israel. The original Israelis come out of the Canaanite population. Israelites and Hebrews joined together.

Now you do not speak for Israelis or Jews. Your contempt for both is obvious.

Jews like Muslims and Christians can show aboriginal roots to the same land. Zionist says as much and recognizes this.

There is NOTHING in Zionism that defines Jews as a religious identity. It defines Jews as a nationality or political collective group in need of a nation to protect Jews from Christian and Muslim nations defining us as inferior, massacring us, etc.

This is why Jews in Europe and in Muslim countries reconstituted Israel. It was a direct existential political decision to prevent extinction of their collective through the creation of a state organ to protect its people and offer them a place to flee to.

It does not define Palestinians or Muslims or Christians in a negative way.

It respects the values of the remaining true Arabs, the Beduins. It has had some of its bravest soldiers who died for Israel come from Beduins, Druze and Muslims. Muslims in Palestine now Jordan died protecting Jews and donating them and when they fleed to what is now Israel but was then simply referred to by the geographic name Palestine.

I mock you because you mock my people. Its that simple.

You know nothing about Israelis or Palestinians.

If you did you would know we respect each other's historical connections. The conflict is not about that. It is about today Muslim extremist fundamentalists who conform to fundamentalist interpretations of Islam that discriminate and show contempt not just for Jews, but Christians, Bahaiis Hindus, Buddhists, Yazidi, Assyrian, Berbers, Kurds, Druze, Amiddyyah Muslism, Ismaili Muslims, moderate Islam or simply hatred between Sunni and Shiite sects of Islam.

You are just another of many who talk about an area of the world you have no clue about.

Altai claims to come from Turkey the country when it was called the Ottoman Empire which treated Christians, Muslims, Jews, everyone the same way, as peons to collect tax from.

The current Turkish PM is a Muslim Brotherhood supporter, an anti semite, anti Christian, and hates most of his own citizens.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JamesHackerMP]

Rue, first of all, I do not agree with Altai's assessment of the State of Israel.  In fact, I disagree with her plenty and have said so.

I believe the State of Israel has a right to exist, I just made that clear in my last couple of responses to Altai.  I also believe that, whatever the ancient pedigree of Jews or anyone living in what one could call "the Levant", what matters is more so the present than the ancient past.  In the present, Israel has won her independence in the 1948 war, and reaffirmed it in a host of other conflicts with her neighbors.  Whether anyone on the planet likes it or not, Israel is here to stay, and rightfully so.

As for my (apparent) complete ignorance on the subject; I've come in contact with Israelis on campus when I was in college, and I've taken international relations courses that included extensive discussions on Israel and its neighbors.  Does that make me as well informed on the subject as someone who lives in the Middle East, or Israel specifically? No.  But I'm far from being ignorant, and very, very far from being hostile or "mocking" toward you or your people.  I might have put things in a way that you would not have, but I'm not Yasser Arafat come back from the grave to mock (or destroy) the People of the State of Israel.  I do not always agree with every action Israel has taken, but I'm not being hostile or mocking, and I support fully Israel's right to exist.  

Actually, I'm wondering whether it's just that you saw I'm from the US and figured "Oh, he must be ignorant of the world.  You know how those yanks are, eh?"  I'm also not Mark Antony.  So sue me for not being as incredibly articulate an orator as yourself.

Now, you can either continue this silly personality conflict you've started between the two of us, or you can calm down and participate in this forum like an adult.  You're not doing your people any good by being rude, especially to someone who hasn't been saying anything nasty about the State of Israel or the Jewish faith in general.  Your knowledge on the subject is certainly impressive and anyone here could benefit from that knowledge, myself included.  But that won't happen if you continue to mock back someone who never did it to you (and/or your People) in the first place.  You're turning people off and not doing Israel any good in the process.

[Argus]

On 12/26/2016 at 10:58 AM, Canadianjim said:

Didn't you say there were no Palestinians? What is this then? What is the land called?

Would you say Saskatchewanians are a 'people' because they live in a place called Saskatchewan?

[Argus]

On 1/15/2017 at 9:42 PM, JamesHackerMP said:

I do not remember any Israeli claiming to have been the first inhabitants of the region.  Throughout the history of the world, people have moved around a lot.  The Phonecians who inhabited the area in ancient times moved, too; else the state of Carthage would not have come into existence.  According to the Bible--and much of the Bible, Jewish and Christian testaments, is full of illustrations of a larger point rather than precise events and precise people--the Canaanites were in Lebanon/Palestine/Israel area first, before the children of Israel.  So I haven't heard anyone Jewish--of Israel or not--claiming they were "there first".

The whole argument over who was there first seems rather pointless to me. It's odd, however, that some of those who insist it matter desperately that Jews were late comers (presuming they were) are the same ones who are adamant that the instant an immigrant steps off the airplane here in Canada they're every bit as much Canadians as someone who was born and raised here and whose roots go back ten generations.

I think the point is that there are Jews there running a country, and this seems to drive the Muslims batty, since no one is allowed to be in charge in that region but Muslims.

Edited January 18, 2017 by Argus

[Argus]

On 1/16/2017 at 2:45 PM, dialamah said:

And she's putting lots of people on ignore, which means she'll eventually be talking to herself - whilst everyone else debates around her.  

And lots of people, besides me, have, I'm sure, put her on their ignore list, as well.

[JamesHackerMP]

Good point Argus! My whole point was that I don't care who "was there first".  The Jewish Israelis are there now.  People who were born just now in Israel cannot help the fact that someone else doesn't think they deserve to be there.

[JamesHackerMP]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

And lots of people, besides me, have, I'm sure, put her on their ignore list, as well.

Who on the ignore list?

[Argus]

2 minutes ago, JamesHackerMP said:

Good point Argus! My whole point was that I don't care who "was there first".  The Jewish Israelis are there now.  People who were born just now in Israel cannot help the fact that someone else doesn't think they deserve to be there.

Nor does it matter what someone else thinks on the subject. People are free to deny reality as much as they like. The problem arises when the dictatorships in the region continue to encourage terrorism and violence against the Jewish government.

I'm perfectly willing to admit that a country at war - and Israel has been at war continuously for 70 years, has lapses of human rights and would tend to lose respect and affection for those they are at war with. It's actually rather surprising Israel has managed to retain such a healthy democracy and an independent judiciary (unlike ANY of their neighbours) in the face of that.

Edited January 18, 2017 by Argus